Economics of a Mercenary Campaign

[Spiderfish]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.

You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest.

no it appears GSG is something seperate they worked in liberia most recently...so not the
same guys. </font>[/QUOTE]The Gurkha Brigade is technically Mercenaries as well, which is why I thought you meant them.

</font>[/QUOTE]Technically mercenaries? Where did you get that from?

Technically they are soldiers in the Army.

They are certainly not "mercenaries" in the context of this discussion or as defined by the Geneva Convention. If you disagree with this feel free to raise it with the MoD.

It's interesting how this discussion keeps returning to the exceptions and the extremes; big permanent units with grav tanks, APCs, and lots of heavy equipment.

Whats more interesting is the fact that for the most part the good members seem to assume that all of these contractors will be "units", that the corporation will consist of a self contained fighting unit.

It seems more likely the business will be one which puts units together to fufill specific missions.

You've all run the numbers. Tanks, APCs, starship transports (score a luagh point), it all adds up to unsupportable costs.

Only if you assume the unit is the business rather than something it sets up for a mission.

In the case of a battalion existing as a self contained business your correct. But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.

And if they have based themselves at a transport hub, chartering transport shouldn't be that difficult. Perhaps they have a deal with a shipping company to allow them to charter ships at short notice.


Here is an example of a real world PMC.

http://www.erinysinternational.com/

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
However any smart operator is going to want to keep the time from the point that the Patron decides that they want a Merc unit, until the time they get a Merc Unit to an absolute minimum. That means being able to leave right now. that means being able to deploy within 24 hours of getting notified.

Bruce,

If the unit isn't already in the system the check won't clear in 24 hours.

As I posted up thread, the smart operators aren't sitting around with a mechanized company waiting for a check and a x-boat message to go to Arglebargle-IX. The truly smart operators are on Argelbargle-IX already with a unit they put together on the strength of rumors, inside information, and a thousand other hints that Arglebargle-IX might very well be in the merc market.

They heard that a unit of certain size with certain abilities might be able to find work on Arglebargle-IX soon. So they put such a unit together on Arglebargle-IX.

the sooner you get there the sooner you can actually assess the situation. With luck you have already had an agent there preparing your intelligence reports and situation reports so you have better information.

Precisely. What you're failing to realise is that the unit's agents or advance party has been on the ground assessing the situation well before the ticket is let and that most of the unit is on the scene before the contract is signed. That's where all the patrons and favors I've been talking about come into place. The smart operators get the job because they are already there and not because they own their own ships that can get them there in 3 or 4 weeks.

Following my model of having agents of the Mercenary unit out drumming up business...

Your model? Sure. What do you think all my blathering about patrons, advance parties, favors, and the rest has been about?

And why waste a scout/courier on your advance party when they can travel like anyone else? They aren't an armed unit after all.

Keeping a Company in bullets, especially if the local TL is too low to produce ammo for your weapons is going to require supply runs to someplace that can produce your ammo.

That's been handled in the real world for thousands of years now. You either fight with what you brought, build up stockpiles, arrange for local supply, or a mixture of all three. You think the tommygunners in Biafra didn't use strict fire discipline? .45 ACP isn't something that can be scrounged up in Nigeria.

You want to rely on commercial shipping that will deliver to the starport, or worse to orbit? How do you get it to you in the field? If it can be produced locally, how do I get it out to the field site?

How did the unit get on scene? Why can't it's supplies travel the same way? Are we talking about months of combat or days? It all depends.

The most efficient way is to have a Mercenary Cruiser making the supply runs with specially designed small craft dropping off the supplies directly to the unit, even under fire.

Score a laugh point. Wasting a cutter on ammo runs? All the fungibles still must be stockpiled somewhere in the system or your merc crusier is looking at a two week trip. Hey, Broadsword we need some more ACR ammo. Right-o, we'll be back in two week, okay?

You fight with what you brought and if you run out you didn't plan properly. Better make do with local supplies then.

A Company is to small for sustained operations...

What sustained operations? If the ticket is a long term one, you've planned on it. Look again at LBB:4:

Striker:Marastan - You'll be fighting for only 90 days until the IISS survey vessel arrives and you'll have LSP logistical support.

Commandoorozlo - You've got hold the mineheads for two days. You'll either be relieved by then or withdrawn. Again, off-world companies are picking up the tab.

Security:Jokotre - You'll be using ATVs on a 800 mile round trip. At 60 kph, that's just under 22 hours travel time. Factor in three days for the religious mumbo-jumbo and you're looking at a five day ticket.

Cadre:Aramis - You're training and leading local troops to fight with local weapons.

Dream:Aramanx - You're part of a national offensive bankrolled by Sternmetal Horizons. This ticket will be lengthy, but you've got the credits and time to order and stockpile what you need. Again, if you plan wrong your employers are going to be upset.

What do you suggest, 3 squads, a tank, a mortar, a medic and a mechanic?

Oddly enough that is almost exactly what Broadsword fields. There are a few more medics and no mechanics though.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Piper:
We have a catalog (of sorts) of some of the large mercenary units operating in the Marches in the counter mix for Fifth Frontier War.

Piper,

There are such units in Invasion:Earth too. They're described as amalgamated units. The Imperium hired large numbers of mercs and then formed them into divisions, brigades, and so forth. There wasn't a merc division sitting around somewhere waiting to be hired.

A few pre-FFW TNS reports and a rumor result in A:1 point to much the same thing. The Imperium was hiring mercs and forming big units for a variety of missions in the pre-war Marches; primairly on Efate.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Spiderfish:
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.

Spiderfish,

Thank you. You explained very succinctly what I've been bleating about for several posts now.

Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.

Yep. The Wild Geese and The Dogs of War offer good examples of how merc units are assembled - both movies (and the books on which they are based benefitted from the input of actual merc officers in getting the details right.

The exceptions would be for the far future equivalents of Sandline or Executive Outcomes, with long-term contracts for security tickets and the like - typically not the sorts of situations in which Our Intrepid Heroes are likely to find themselves.

 

[Spiderfish]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Spiderfish:
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.

Spiderfish,

Thank you. You explained very succinctly what I've been bleating about for several posts now.

Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.


Have fun,
Bill </font>[/QUOTE]And of course if you need us to "kill them like... yesterday!" that will incur our premium rate charge.

 

[sid6.7]

Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both.

I have no idea how mercenary pricing works, but real world companies generate a total revenue of 3 times salary only. Expenses are subtracted from revenues to generate a final profit in the neighborhood of 10 percent of total revenue. General Motors and runs closer to a 4 percent profit and specialty companies (like carbon fiber frames for racing bicycles) run closer to a 25 percent profit margin.

Obviously, I am painting with a broad brush and applying a thick coat of generalities here, but a Mercenary unit should charge no less than 3 times salaries for a ticket. Total expenses (including salaries) should be no greater than 95 percent of the ticket price for a very large unit with a long-term contract and no greater than 75 percent of the ticket price for a small specialized unit with a short term contract.

A fee of double or triple the total expenses of a ticket would probably represent a short term crisis situation where demand far exceeds supply - like the very early days of personal computers or the cost of transportation at the fall of Saigon.

All of this assumes that a Merc Company is primarily a business, run like any other business - to generate a reasonable profit for the investors. </font>[/QUOTE]it would be better to say 3 times expenses
VS 3 times salaries there is less a chance
of going red then.

I.E my platoon operates with ship on a monthly
expense of 1.4 million my salaries are only in
the 48k range for troops/crew...

3 x expenses is 4.2 million for a ticket
3 x salaries is only about 150k...

this would be a 1 month ticket BTW

 

[sid6.7]

Here is an example of a real world PMC.

erinys international

well lets ask them then....

BING email on the way...

hehehhhee really i did!....you think they'll hunt me down as a spy or soemthing?

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Spiderfish:
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.

I was thinking that if transport is a perennial problem for merc units, surely some enterprising soul will set up some sort of merc transport business? This is the basics of capitalism. Not a hot drop, perhaps, unless a LOT more money crosses the table, but if you plan ahead, how often would a hot drop be necessary? Essentially, we're talking a no-questions-asked charter.

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
... A few pre-FFW TNS reports and a rumor result in A:1 point to much the same thing. The Imperium was hiring mercs and forming big units for a variety of missions in the pre-war Marches; primairly on Efate.

That's precisely the point.

FFW provides a snapshot of mercenary activity in the Marches on the eve of the war. What it doesn't give us is a dynamic picture. Any of those units could be at or near the end of their current contract. There could be any number of immediate opportunities for those units, either whole or divided into smaller constituent elements.

Those "coulds" are the province of the referee.

It's generally faster to ship a battalion than it is to recruit and train one. You're not just shipping hardware, you're shipping skills and experience.

The cost of shipping needs to weighed against the value of the objective to the client (not always reflected in the ticket price).

Personally, I like Hammer's Slammers. Is it really so farfetched to allow a "scale model" of them to run around the Marches?

Your view will, no doubt, differ from mine.

 

[Pickles]

"Let's just say we'd like to avoid any ... Imperial entanglements ..."

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Here is an example of a real world PMC.

erinys international

well lets ask them then....

BING email on the way...

hehehhhee really i did!....you think they'll hunt me down as a spy or soemthing? </font>[/QUOTE]They are not likely to hunt you down, but you might be recruited. After all, there are only so many people in the world interested in the logistics of supporting a "Security" Company (Mercenary is such an ugly word).

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
it would be better to say 3 times expenses
VS 3 times salaries there is less a chance
of going red then.

I.E my platoon operates with ship on a monthly
expense of 1.4 million my salaries are only in
the 48k range for troops/crew...

3 x expenses is 4.2 million for a ticket
3 x salaries is only about 150k...

this would be a 1 month ticket BTW

Three times expenses is probably too high. In the example you gave, the ticket would be 4.2 MCr, the expenses would be 1.4 MCR, so the profit for 1 month of work would be 2.8 MCr. That would leave you dividing half the profit (1.4 MCr) among a group of men who earn only 48 thousand Credits per month. The monthly bonus would be 29 times their salary – Cr 29,000 bonus per Cr 1000 of salary. After 12 months of tickets, each Merc would receive Cr 350,000 per Cr 1000 of salary.

If you set the fee to 1.33 times expenses (expenses = 75 percent of fee), then your 1.4 MCR unit would need a 1.862 MCr monthly ticket to generate a 0.462 MCr profit. Each bonus would still be 4.8 times salary or Cr 4,800 per Cr 1000 of salary. After 12 months of tickets, each Merc would receive Cr 57,750 per Cr 1000 of salary. The hard part is accurately calculating monthly expenses – including ammo and equipment losses.

 

[sid6.7]

so at 500,000k that would be
250k to the co. and 250k to the
men? i'd say we take it closer
to 2x or 1.75 as an average
for a large ticket. if my platoon
lost thier AFV i'd be broke....
i'd be broke with a 4.2m ticket
too for that matter....

so it might be better for a merc company
to work with infantry and make your cleint
pay for vehicles i would think...or
with god mode on..have the ticket meet
the costs of at least SOME of the veh.

ammo truely is a hard part to fig'r
during a merc ticket would you
have a firefight per day? twice
per day? ALL DAY every day?
for gaming purposes i would hope
the GM would keep it to 3-4
exchanges for the whole ticket
is that too much? not enough?
to give realistic play?

so with an SAS load of 400-600rounds
per arm X 3 or 4? 1800-2400 rnds?

for my platoon that would be 100k
for a 1 complete load for all my
men and hvy weapons and veh.

or are we taking the canon tickets
in LBB4 too seriously and they
should be just considered some
quicky examples VS hard rules...(my opinion)

im gonna do a quick run thru for 2 tickets
with the first one being 3 engagments and
10% damage to equip. + recuiting new troops
after losses...the 2nd one i'll run through
with a complete loss of 1 of my veh. plus
all the rest + 2 more eng. and see what i end
up with...VS 1.38 1.5 1.75 and 2...

(2)6 month tickets

 

[BetterThanLife]

The number of engagements and amount of ammo expended would depend on the type of Ticket. For a quick in and out raid, one basic load should suffice. For a Security Mission you wouldn't expect to go through more than 2 or 3 basic loads per week. For a Cadre Mission you are going through ammo for live fire but that is generally paid for by the client. For a Striker Mission where you are Point for the client's army and expected to be where the action is probably between 2 basic loads per day and 1 basic load per 2 days. That take and hold Commando Mission, I figure 4-6 basic loads of ammo.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Bill,
Since the payroll of a Mercenary unit is so low, when not in combat, there is little incentive to break the unit up. Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions. (These canon units are mostly Platoon sized but one is a Regiment.) They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7), CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword, the Tlehekoi Regiment (However that is spelled.) and the Caledon Highlanders Both from FASA's Aslan Mercenary Cruisers.

Now I am not saying some units won't break up. But the evidence implies that units stay together. YMMV.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Piper:
Any of those units could be at or near the end of their current contract. There could be any number of immediate opportunities for those units, either whole or divided into smaller constituent elements.

Piper,

What you've failed to realise is that none of those large units existed prior to the Imperium creating them for the Efate ticket. And none of those large units will exist after the Efate ticket is completed.

The Imperium either directly or indirectly gathered up various odd and sods to create the merc regiments and brigades engaged on Efate. They even; as A:1 shows, hired individual mercs. They stitched together individuals, squads, platoons, and even the random company. The units didn't exist until the ticket did.

Seeing as the mercs are operating in larger formations, it is more than likely that they're not using much of their own equipment either. For logistic reasons the Imperium most likely issued all new kit, kit that will be turned back in after the conflict.

When the ticket is over, all these units will split up into the much smaller elements that made them up; individuals, squads, platoons, and some companies.

It's generally faster to ship a battalion than it is to recruit and train one. You're not just shipping hardware, you're shipping skills and experience.

It is IF the battalion exists in the first place. It's also faster to have a 'contractor' already on the ground in your system let you know he has most of a battalion immediately available if you're thinking about hiring mercs.

And why does eveyone keep harping on training? You're hiring mercs in the first place because they are already trained.

Personally, I like Hammer's Slammers. Is it really so farfetched to allow a "scale model" of them to run around the Marches?

I like the Slammers too. They also exist in a much different universe than the OTU: FTL travel is much faster and cheaper, there's FTL comms, loads of independent planets with few multi-planet polities. In the afterword of the Slammers first book, Drake explains why the merc trade arose in his setting and then explains how the mercs eventually put themselves out of business. Even in Drakes' universe, the mercs don't last long. I like Hornblower too, but I'm not going to twist to precepts of the OTU in order to fit him in it.

Can there be a Slammers-type outfit in the Marches? Sure. It most likely belongs to someone else, is heavily subsidized, and only works in carefully vetted tickets. Can there be a truly independent Slammers-type outfit in the Marches that manages to stay near full strength, travels as a unit, and pays all the bills from the money it earns? You seen the figures and the figures say no.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
It is IF the battalion exists in the first place. It's also faster to have a 'contractor' already on the ground in your system let you know he has most of a battalion immediately available if you're thinking about hiring mercs.

And why does eveyone keep harping on training? You're hiring mercs in the first place because they are already trained.

But not trained to how you expect to operate. Yes they are trained with Basic Marksman skills. But can they even use the equipment you have? Especially if you are going to do your recruiting on site on a TL 5 or 6 world (which is the majority of the published tickets) when you are using a TL9-TL12 unit. Secondly recruiting isn't all that efficient in Traveller. Population Code -4 for number of dice for raw recruits (Who don't even count as mercenaries and have to start with Basic Training.) Population code -5 for Veterans. Population Code -6 for Veteran Officers and Mercenaries. That is per week. Now if you have 20 guys as your core group and you need to field a company of 150, if you have 5 recruiters with a skill of 4 and 5 with a recruiting skill of 3(Or equivalent for other rule systems.) and you are on a Population 9 world (Good luck with that.) You can recruit a maximum of 32 "Mercenaries" per 2 weeks. Stastically you are getting 25.5 per week. It will take you 10-12 weeks to get you to 150 men. Forget about putting together a Battalion, even if you start with a full company. If you settle for veterans and Mercenaries then you can reduce that to about 6 weeks on a Population 9 planet. Less than 10% of the Imperium is Pop9+.

Recruit onsite or as needed is impractical. (And normal salaries are set up to encourage keeping the unit together and getting them into action.)

Can there be a Slammers-type outfit in the Marches? Sure. It most likely belongs to someone else, is heavily subsidized, and only works in carefully vetted tickets. Can there be a truly independent Slammers-type outfit in the Marches that manages to stay near full strength, travels as a unit, and pays all the bills from the money it earns? You seen the figures and the figures say no.

Or it is a long serving successful unit that has paid off its initial debts and is now independent of outside influence. (Tlekhoi Regiment.) The economics of the system have to allow that to happen.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Since the payroll of a Mercenary unit is so low, when not in combat, there is little incentive to break the unit up.

Bruce,

It's more than just the payroll. Did you miss the quote up thread about Instellarms having agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely over.?

When you 'downsize' after a ticket you get rid of equipment too. That means cash in hand.

Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions.

I have canon examples of jump message torpedoes too, but go ahead.

(These canon units are mostly Platoon sized...

As I've been stressing all along. The smaller a unit is the more likely it is permenent.

...but one is a Regiment.)

Which is most likely subsidized in some fashion by another party.

They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7)...

In T20's Mileau:1000, the Imperium is fighting the Rim War. That has siphoned off Imperial assets from the Gateway region. The Imperium is helping planetary and sub-planetary governments hire mercs to fill the gap left by Imperial redeployments. What's more, nothing is said in either EA about how long the units in question have existed prior to the tickets presented in the EAs.

... CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword...

We know nothing about the actual owners of Broadsword. The players take role of ship's crew or troopers as the scenarios change. Nothing is stated about the business end of the Broadsword operation. It could very well be wholly owned by a larger organization or subsidized in the various manners I've been suggesting.

...the Tlehekoi Regiment...

Which was subsidized into existence by a clan and whose long term survival at its present size is not assured.

...and the Caledon Highlanders...

...and which is subsidized by the Principality of Caledon.

Now I am not saying some units won't break up.

Just so you underastand me more clearly. I'm not saying all units break up all the time. I am saying that the larger a unit is and the more expensive it's TO&E, the more likely it is not permanent. And that, if it is permanent, it is not independent.

But the evidence implies that units stay together.

As you can read above, your 'evidence' is little of the sort.

Let's return to the beginning. In the fifth post in this thread, Flykiller calculated that the 'buy-in' for a single company of TL7 mechanized infantry was 5.3 MCr and that the annual upkeep for such a unit was 3.9 MCr. Run those costs past the fees for canonical tickets available to us and please explain to us how:

A - Someone can afford to put together a merc company in the first place. And...

2 - How they manage to meet their monthly payments whether they are on a ticket or not.

This is at TL7 mind you. No wholly owned starship transports, no advance parties aboard their own scout/couriers, no fancy TO&Es full of pricey equipment, none of that. Just a vanilla, barebones, mech infantry company with nary an air/raft. Four million credits a month.

You've said that banks won't lend to them, that business must see a safer return on it's money than mercs can provide, that rich people won't throw money away. Your ideas about a unit's activity 'cycle' failed to take into account Traveller's comm lag. You insist that units stay together despite real world experience and monetary evidence. You even insist that units move themselves despite the amazing cost of the starships involved.

You've closed the door on all sorts of funding mechanisms; like 'venture capital', subsidies, and patron-client relationships. You insist that units don't try and economize on expenses; like drawing down force levels between paying jobs. You've even added substantially to the 'buy-in' and maintenance costs involved by insisting that units own ships. How can the books ever balance?

So where does all the money come from? All the money that is needed to keep those large merc units with all their hi-tech toys permanently together? Are all the ticket prices low by an order of magnitude?

Show us the money, Bruce, and we'll believe you.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

It's more than just the payroll. Did you miss the quote up thread about Instellarms having agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely over.?

When you 'downsize' after a ticket you get rid of equipment too. That means cash in hand.

It says the Losing side, not the winning side. The Losers might not be able to make payroll if it was a success only ticket.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions.

I have canon examples of jump message torpedoes too, but go ahead.</font>[/QUOTE]Certainly, but do you have canon examples of Mercenary units being based around less than a platoon that recruits in order to fill tickets?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(These canon units are mostly Platoon sized...

As I've been stressing all along. The smaller a unit is the more likely it is permenent.</font>[/QUOTE]But I haven't found more than two canon units that are shown with any detail at all that is above Platoon level.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...but one is a Regiment.)

Which is most likely subsidized in some fashion by another party.</font>[/QUOTE]See below.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7)...

In T20's Mileau:1000, the Imperium is fighting the Rim War. That has siphoned off Imperial assets from the Gateway region. The Imperium is helping planetary and sub-planetary governments hire mercs to fill the gap left by Imperial redeployments. What's more, nothing is said in either EA about how long the units in question have existed prior to the tickets presented in the EAs.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually that is incorrect. EA6 does give an indication that the unit has recently signed a contract with Beta Quadrant Security for the use of the Javelin Class Mercenary Cruiser and it is a new unit. Formed as a platoon without any ticket before organizing and equipping the unit.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword...

We know nothing about the actual owners of Broadsword. The players take role of ship's crew or troopers as the scenarios change. Nothing is stated about the business end of the Broadsword operation. It could very well be wholly owned by a larger organization or subsidized in the various manners I've been suggesting.[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]It could also be independent, it doesn't say. But a unit that is going to invest in a transport, or have a transport as part of the TOE of the unit is unlikely to simply melt away after an assignment as they have the organization of the unit dictated by the capacity of the ship, not by a ticket.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...the Tlehekoi Regiment...

Which was subsidized into existence by a clan and whose long term survival at its present size is not assured. </font>[/QUOTE]Well I can't find the book right now to give you accurate numbers but it has existed for generations before 1100, I believe it was mentioned as fighting since before the Peace of Fatah but I am not sure, and is mentioned as still existing during the Rebellion. It is independent of any Clan affiliation and it doesn't look like the future will change any of that. (Unless they get wiped out by Virus as Darkness falls.) I don't have any of my TNE material to see if they are mentioned there, though it would be rather neat to continue the tradition and in 1248, if they don't exist I can see some Traditional minded unmarried Aslan Female resurrecting the Regiment.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...and the Caledon Highlanders...

...and which is subsidized by the Principality of Caledon.</font>[/QUOTE]Based strictly on the Name? Or do you have an additional source for that?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now I am not saying some units won't break up.

Just so you underastand me more clearly. I'm not saying all units break up all the time. I am saying that the larger a unit is and the more expensive it's TO&E, the more likely it is not permanent. And that, if it is permanent, it is not independent.

But the evidence implies that units stay together.

As you can read above, your 'evidence' is little of the sort.</font>[/QUOTE]Though it is more substantial than anything you have provided.

Let's return to the beginning. In the fifth post in this thread, Flykiller calculated that the 'buy-in' for a single company of TL7 mechanized infantry was 5.3 MCr and that the annual upkeep for such a unit was 3.9 MCr. Run those costs past the fees for canonical tickets available to us and please explain to us how:

A - Someone can afford to put together a merc company in the first place. And...

2 - How they manage to meet their monthly payments whether they are on a ticket or not.

This is at TL7 mind you. No wholly owned starship transports, no advance parties aboard their own scout/couriers, no fancy TO&Es full of pricey equipment, none of that. Just a vanilla, barebones, mech infantry company with nary an air/raft. Four million credits a month.

You've said that banks won't lend to them, that business must see a safer return on it's money than mercs can provide, that rich people won't throw money away. Your ideas about a unit's activity 'cycle' failed to take into account Traveller's comm lag. You insist that units stay together despite real world experience and monetary evidence. You even insist that units move themselves despite the amazing cost of the starships involved.

You've closed the door on all sorts of funding mechanisms; like 'venture capital', subsidies, and patron-client relationships. You insist that units don't try and economize on expenses; like drawing down force levels between paying jobs. You've even added substantially to the 'buy-in' and maintenance costs involved by insisting that units own ships. How can the books ever balance?

So where does all the money come from? All the money that is needed to keep those large merc units with all their hi-tech toys permanently together? Are all the ticket prices low by an order of magnitude?

Show us the money, Bruce, and we'll believe you.

First I didn't say they wouldn't be capitalized by a Corporation, or a Wealthy Patron, or some other capitalization method. I did say that the expenses would still have to be covered regardless of the source of capitalization, and the unit would generally have to show a profit in its operations. I also stated that large scale capitalization would not be simply for a future favor.

I also stated, early on that I believed that the Canon Tickets were not rationally priced and a better method of ticket pricing would be a good thing to have. (The Canon tickets may well be what the offer is, but that doesn't mean that a Mercenary Unit will actually be able to afford to take the ticket for that price.) Further a more detailed method of determining what, in general, a Unit's expenses would be and how to calculate it would be a nice thing to have. (Mostly so the profitability of the unit can be determined.)

The base salaries and the time required to recruit a new unit, plus train them to your specifications, pretty much preclude units not staying together and still being responsive enough to run the majority of the current canon tickets. the business will go to who can get there first in most of these tickets.

Instellarms can have agents traveling about, so can Mercenary Units. Both on organic transports and commercially. (I still like the idea of hiring Detached Duty scouts for that part of the operation.) the unit may be someplace but and may take time to get there but an agent of the unit can be there offering the Unit's services and negotiating the fee while the message is being sent to the Unit to deploy. (Cutting down response time.) Since recruiting is a lengthy process, I recommend having recruiters working full time as part of a successful Mercenary unit. These new recruits can then be trained and shipped to the action as replacements for casualties. (And can take the same transport as the Unit's Ammo resupply.)

You also mentioned that a unit will have to bring what it needs for ammo and supplies or go without. (No supply runs for resupply, so having an integral starship was unimportant and very uncommon.)

OK If the unit is a platoon and is expected, during the course of a ticket to act as a striker unit to spearhead an Indigenous Brigade, and is expected to go through 4 basic loads of ammo per week on a 6 month ticket, where are they going to store (And who is going to guard) the approximately 21,000 Ram grenades (over 29 metric tons of grenades plus packing material), that makes up 6 Ram Grenades per man in a 36 man platoon? Forget about the normal trooper ammunition or any heavy weapons, and what will it take to keep an MRL supplied for 6 months of combat. They certainly can't carry it with them. It wouldn't fit in a Broadsword, or a Javelin. It might fit in a Liner or a Fat trader, depending on how much actual gear the unit has. You also have to actually deliver it to the troops in the field, possibly under fire. How does the unit get replacements, or are they just expected to fight to the last man with no replacements? How about replacing lost weapons? Are we going to go from Gauss Rifles to Bolt action or Muzzle loaders during this 6 months?

I can see it now, trying to recruit men on a Tl5 world to fight in a unit equipped to TL12 and no training because they are Mercenaries!

Do you have any idea how much warfare and in particular small unit tactics, has changed in the past 10 years? (No TL change, around early TL8.) How about since Viet Nam? (TL7), or WWII (TL6)? WWI (TL5), The American Civil War (TL4)? There has been several major revolutions in warfare and tactics in the past 10 years, and three to four times that many in the past 20 years. How about the next 10 years? You couldn't take a soldier and train him, regardless of his training and experience, with a TL of difference in less than 6 weeks.