Evolution of TRAVELLER star generation

[flykiller]

When using strictly random generation, the "secondary" system may end up being even MORE powerful than the original primary system

yep! now the fun part - figure out why.

Yes, I KNOW that any GM can take their Traveller Universe in any direction they see fit

and really that's all you need to know. anyone capable of playing traveller is capable of playing it their own way. most do.

it seems decidedly odd to me that after nearly 40 years of existence, there are STILL some blindspots in the Traveller Universe!

not to mention quite a few empty spots ....

 

[GypsyComet]

Can you tell me where it first was introduced or where I can find it?

I first ran into it in T5. I'm not sure how far back into the drafts of that it goes.

 

[Garnfellow]

Traveller world gen is expressly designed to allow a wide variety of occasionally unlikely results. This is a feature, not a bug. The theory is that more potential outcomes create more opportunities for interesting results to then be interpreted by the referee. And after all, the real world is full of unlikely results and exceptions like a US naval base in Cuba, a large city in the middle of the desert or arctic, etc.

Given this, I've always found it bizarre that system generation is so locked into this one single notable world per system model, even when other parts of the rules suggest the existence of interesting secondary worlds. This rigidity is antithetical to the rest of the game.

The mainworld is, by definition, the most important world within the system and should have the best starport. And most systems should really have only one world of note. But that shouldn't preclude secondary worlds from occasionally having higher habitability, larger populations, higher TL, or even lesser starports than the mainworld.

 

[ovka]

Remember also that

1. By definition the main world is the one with the largest population.
2. Typically the world with the largest population is going to be in the habitable zone of one of the system's stars because, well, it is more habitable.
3. The central star in the system will typically be the largest.
4. Smaller stars may not even have a habitable zone.
5. By definition any starport not associated with the main world will be labeled a spaceport.

This makes it less likely that there will be a second main world. However, it can lead to things like two worlds in a system with similar populations trying to outdo each other to see which gets the all-important main world label. We know from CT A0 that the IISS tries to update its UWPs every 20 years or so. Plenty of possible intrigue from that.

There can also be "trader's maps" which include two or even more worlds in a particular system. Such a map would assist merchants who need to jump into the system for a load of Ag goods instead of the typical In goods they get from the main world.

There might also be a hidden-gem world (from a merchant's perspective) orbiting a far companion. Nobody goes there because the main world gets all of the traffic, but one or two ships have discovered that they can turn a higher profit by calling there instead of the main world. Such a location would need a ready fuel source and resupply source so that the merchant wouldn't need to go "in-system."

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[Condottiere]

One variant would be a small low pop high tech garden planet that militarily dominates and controls the system, consisting of large pop, less salubrious planets and settlements.

 

[estar]

I don't think the extra secondary value is necessary.

We already have to potentially manage dozens of bodies in each system, each of which can potentially have an individual UWP and star port and act as a jump destination.

One of the worlds will simply be "more main" than the other and that one "wins the hex".

I wrote several random solar system program based off Book 6, GURPS Space, etc. One interesting result is when you roll a Gas Giant in the middle of the inhabitable zone that has dozens of larger moons. Suddenly you get a Firefly situation with a lot of inhabitable worlds in a single stellar system.

Worse manage to roll a M companion star in the life zone of a larger star.

 

[estar]

Personal computers, the only hope of organizing that much data, still kinda sucked at the time. The first commercial GUIs were just getting up to speed. Wrangling a lot of data needed tools that were still developing and processing space that was still tight.

I had a note book with a list of procedure I could use with my Casio programmable calculator and even with that I managed only to crank out 20 odd systems before I lost interest in favor of doing other gaming stuff. Even calculated the world's temperature according to the book 6 formula.

Try generating just a subsector to that level as more than just numeric spew. "Why" will quickly become apparent.

I think overall the Traveller Community would rather have charted space completely filled with out with main worlds aka the Traveller Map, rather than a handful of sectors detailed to the Nth degree.


Traveller is one of the few perhaps only RPGs that has the mechanic and setup, (the mainworld generation) to detail a galaxy spanning setting to a level of detail that useful at the table.

 

[estar]

My personal view that the Traveller Mainworld Generation is a useful game mechanic to make managing a sci-fi setting reasonable.

What I would think happen realistically is that there would be dozens of colonies on any inhabitable world within reason and dozens of outposts and stations in each system supporting the economy. It would be a confusing kaleidoscope of polities at varying degrees and levels of organization.

Look at a various near future depictions of the Solar System along with Firefly and multiply that by the thousands of star system found on the Traveller Map.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Hi Aramis,

Unless that life is spacefaring or technological, humans won't interact with "weird life"... and so it doesn't freaking matter.

Curiosity killed the cat.

So it does freaking matter. LOL

People are curious, especially scientists and literary sorts. In a technological society, if it can be done, someone will want to do it. That's human nature. And especially if someone else told them that they CAN'T do it!

So, I am not so sure that the unconventional life has to be spacefaring, starfaring, or technological to be of interest to other sophonts, especially humans. Ever read the Berzerker novels? Good life? A-life? All of that?

There are plenty of scientists who happily study molds and slimes. Remember Ghostbusters? Egon? Based on a real scientist. I know someone who studies exactly those kinds of life in reality.

Someone will want to know. And want to believe. And eventually want to prove it. Hopefully, using the scientific method.

It's like the Thekk in McCaffrey's DP/PP 'verse - they can't interact meaningfully, don't share the same worlds, and so almost no one even bothers to try. The only reason they matter is that they can and do travel in space.

And the Thekk have other secret reasons for interacting with other intelligences.

Anytime ideas are exchanged, there is value. Frederik Pohl had a thought or two on that. Heechee anyone? How about Niven's "Outsiders"?

Or the Plutonians from Doc Smith's Lensmen... it never occurred to them that Earth might be inhabited. They only crossed paths because of the lensmen.

Good storytelling. Eventually, people would have hypothetically explored Pluto and discovered them anyway. Once they knew what they were looking for.

Plus Doc Smith had a lot of soft science aliens.

Planetary Romances are a different genre, one where every system is usually chock full of life forms... You can do PR with Traveller, but like Hard Sci-Fi, it's off-label use.

Good point.

Positive vibes to you!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[McPerth]

This makes it less likely that there will be a second main world. However, it can lead to things like two worlds in a system with similar populations trying to outdo each other to see which gets the all-important main world label. We know from CT A0 that the IISS tries to update its UWPs every 20 years or so. Plenty of possible intrigue from that.

IIRC in the adventure Behind the Blue Eyes, appeared in several Challenge issues (48, 50 and 51)and set in the hinterworlds, there was a binary system (IIRRC RRIes, Hinterworlds 0524) where thre were what would in fact be 2 mainworlds (one each star), one of them a low tech one (TL listed at 3, but marginally so), while the other (the one listed as mainworld) was TL8.

 

[Uren]

A comment about mainworlds and why there's 1 per system.

To simplify, make manageable that's all true, but also because of traveller's inspiration Dumarest. After reading those books, I realized that CT could've been called Dumarest the RPG. Dumarest stories revolve around 1 or 2 worlds, usually 1 per system.

This because story structure is different from game narrative structure. Story structure only includes locations needed to advance the plot. Game narrative is much more open ended, if the players want to explore etc. Story characters know there's a wider environment but it's not what they're interested in. Game characters get told, no your environment only has one place to go.

The point: 1 world per system is a holdover from fiction story structure. A game setting should have as many world's or locations as the GM feels like having or is internally consistent would make sense.

 

[GypsyComet]

The point: 1 world per system is a holdover from fiction story structure. A game setting should have as many world's or locations as the GM feels like having or is internally consistent would make sense.

The tools are there to change *play*, but the game uses a shorthand that makes it very difficult to change the big picture.

An in-game reason for the more successful (and typically older) systems to have multiple working worlds, at least in the Imperium, is the Long Night. A great many High Pop worlds were around during the prior empires and would have pulled in their interstellar endeavors to some extent. It is a truism that maintaining high tech requires that you keep using it, so many of those old High Pops would have turned to in-system settlement and exploitation, limiting their jump drives to truly important business. After all, without an empire out there, who knows what sorts of attention you'll attract by haring off to abandoned systems...

So the older tech capable systems have as much as a 1700 year span of motivation to explore and exploit the other bodies in their systems.

It was a rising era for many non-Imperials, of course, as well as a few regions within Imperial space. A number of minor Human races had their last chance at empire building during the Long Night, and the Julian region never crumbled in the first place. As such, those areas may not have as much motivation to explore in-system. Suerrat space probably had a wave of in-system development (that is now largely neglected) from their sub-light era that ended 9000 years ago. The Vilani sub-light era was much shorter, but they were at J1 for so long that the whole region was essentially "bigger", so there might be some old exploitation of secondary bodies.

Because this is all about Space Opera, I suspect Vargr space is littered with secret pirate asteroid bases, ruined military installations, and failed colonies in multiple generations. Aslan space is probably heavily exploited just due to the land instinct. By comparison, I suspect K'kree space is under exploited, and the Zhodani actively discourage small settlements.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Hi Jim,

The tools are there to change *play*, but the game uses a shorthand that makes it very difficult to change the big picture.

An in-game reason for the more successful (and typically older) systems to have multiple working worlds, at least in the Imperium, is the Long Night. A great many High Pop worlds were around during the prior empires and would have pulled in their interstellar endeavors to some extent. It is a truism that maintaining high tech requires that you keep using it, so many of those old High Pops would have turned to in-system settlement and exploitation, limiting their jump drives to truly important business. After all, without an empire out there, who knows what sorts of attention you'll attract by haring off to abandoned systems...

So the older tech capable systems have as much as a 1700 year span of motivation to explore and exploit the other bodies in their systems.

It was a rising era for many non-Imperials, of course, as well as a few regions within Imperial space. A number of minor Human races had their last chance at empire building during the Long Night, and the Julian region never crumbled in the first place. As such, those areas may not have as much motivation to explore in-system. Suerrat space probably had a wave of in-system development (that is now largely neglected) from their sub-light era that ended 9000 years ago. The Vilani sub-light era was much shorter, but they were at J1 for so long that the whole region was essentially "bigger", so there might be some old exploitation of secondary bodies.

Very cool insights. Thanks for sharing them.

Because this is all about Space Opera, I suspect Vargr space is littered with secret pirate asteroid bases, ruined military installations, and failed colonies in multiple generations.

I would guess the same. I sure hope that Varg Space gets detailed someday.

Aslan space is probably heavily exploited just due to the land instinct.

Definitely.

By comparison, I suspect K'kree space is under-exploited, and the Zhodani actively discourage small settlements.

I agree about K'kree space. The claustrophobia and monophobia would definitely put a hinder on adventuring souls...

But I disagree about the Zhodani. The Zhodani would probably love retreats, monasteries, and the like. If I recall correctly, Zhodane is largely a reserve-preserve of the upper class.

I think the Zhodani would welcome smaller settlements, as long as they are in the fold of greater Zho society.

Of course, it's all up to subjective interpretation.

Positive vibes to you!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[GypsyComet]

But I disagree about the Zhodani. The Zhodani would probably love retreats, monasteries, and the like. If I recall correctly, Zhodane is largely a reserve-preserve of the upper class.

I think the Zhodani would welcome smaller settlements, as long as they are in the fold of greater Zho society.

That's the kicker. Below a certain population the Zhodani "can't" maintain the necessary social structures to ensure happiness (aka conformity). The rule, as seen in the Mongoose book on the Zhodani, is that they don't allow "Low Pop" (Pop 3-) systems. What this implies about secondary worlds in a system that is otherwise populous enough is not clear, but I suspect that they would take access time into account. If it takes the mainworld's Thought Police too long to pay a visit, you'd better have enough people (Pop 4+) to justify having a local office.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

That's the kicker. Below a certain population the Zhodani "can't" maintain the necessary social structures to ensure happiness (aka conformity).

• The rule, as seen in the Mongoose book on the Zhodani, is that they don't allow "Low Pop" (Pop 3-) systems. What this implies about secondary worlds in a system that is otherwise populous enough is not clear, but I suspect that they would take access time into account.
• If it takes the mainworld's Thought Police too long to pay a visit, you'd better have enough people (Pop 4+) to justify having a local office.

Thanks Jim for enlightening me.

I openly confess that I do not own or am completely familiar with all of the Mongoose books.

I can see the justification for Pop 3-.

*** Has anyone ever detailed that necessary infrastructure? Maybe in Don's work that you mentioned (...don't have that one either. On the list to acquire)? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Enoki]

Since I use the extended system generation tools nearly 100% of the time for any system, this sort of thing has come up, along with other oddities.

For a distant companion star, or even one in an outer orbit I simply do one of two things:

Treat the second star like a planet (with respect for orbit type inner, habitable, or outer) using AU in both directions and Book 6 calculations for the habitable zone(s). Then you follow the normal extended sequence.

or

Treat the two stars as separate but close systems with the second one generated per the extended generation methods. I will often give a decent planet in the second system an F space port automatically and treat it as a B- or C starport. Usually, you would treat it as one grade worse than the main starport of the system. So, if the main were an A the secondary would a B or C. If it was a C the secondary would be classed F or G and equivalent to grade D starport.

If the two stars are close enough, the two systems could interact I've run into situations where there are shared orbits and planets between the two (or three) stars.
Or, you need to calculate how a world will be as it circles its star which is circling another star. There you get BIG changes in environment. It could be really nice and warm half the time (give or take) and a frozen ice ball the other half.

Or, a gas giant with a distant satellite that has its own satellites, like a captured planet. There you have a mini-system within the system.

In fact, gas giants I've done frequently end up with mini-systems orbiting them. That is you have several inhabited planets that could (and likely would) interact as their own economic system. These could interact with the main world, or they may be competitors...

Another oddity I've done more than a few times is place the main world in the outer zone rather than the habitable. If the main world is an asteroid belt, vacuum world, or otherwise would be uninhabitable without life support of some sort, there's no real reason it has to be in the habitable zone.
I generally avoid putting it in the inner zone because of the jump problem when you are near the system star. This also takes care of the jump shadow problem in some cases. You could put a near vacuum or vacuum world on the fringe of a super giant star to get out it's 100 diameter range. Who cares if it's the outer edge of the outer zone? You need life support to live there in any case.

Then there's the same thing with a system where the main world is like that (uninhabitable) and you get a good habitable planet at the habitable zone in addition to the main world. That changes the dynamics of the system too.

So, I see no problem having a dual system whatsoever. The existing rules cover having one just fine. It's up to you to make it "come alive" with adventures and background details.