Falling Imperium

[mbrinkhues]

Point of order: Marc Miller can be said to have signed off on the Virus and Hard Times because he was ultimately the guy in charge but he was directly responsible for neither. Virus was the invention of Dave Nilsen (although Frank Chadwick was technically the product line manager at that time?) and Hard Times was written by Chuck Gannon.

I agree with you though that it appears that Gannon had it in for the setting. He seemed to really lack an appreciation for what he was trashing.

I think Gannon did a great work fragmenting the far to big and powerful empire into a number of high tech cores for those who want to play "Clunky-style". Even including a "my little empire" setting (Regency) while shaking up the status quo for the rest of us with the gradual drop of civilization away from the cores. Not to mention making the real humans of Earth a valid option/power again

What happened in TNE (not Mr. Gannons work) is another think.

 

[fiat_knox]

Actually, I like the idea of an Imperium that just manages to spread throughout Charted Space and defies the odds by not breaking up for a good thousand years, before splitting into mini-Imperia like a too-large soap bubble breaking up into daughter bubblets.

Or entering an era known as the "Five Bad Emperors," succeeding Strephon legitimately and presiding over an increasingly-unmanageable 3I until it all goes belly-up and the bureaucrats in Capital realise that nobody's actually sending them any data from the frontiers any more (so they start making up news so the Emperor still thinks he's got an Empire). The Imperial Palace becomes a Shuttered Palace and a Forbidden City: no intruder is allowed in or out, and the Last Iridium Emperor lives there in a bubble with more consorts and concubines than he dreamt of to keep him happy and distracted in his dotage ...

C'mon! You don't have to follow MegaTraveller canon to come up with some beautiful endings. Every time I've come back here, it's taken me a few moments to think up a new one.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Well, neither do I have to make up different endings. I LIKE MegaTraveller/HardTimes!

 

[aramis]

I agree with you though that it appears that Gannon had it in for the setting. He seemed to really lack an appreciation for what he was trashing.

I disagree.

Gannon kept fairly large safes, and in those safes, nothing much had changed except the range of peoples one would encounter; each is large enough to support major trade flows internally. Further, each is in the 3-month travel trip distance needed to maintain common identity; most are, in fact, just a bit smaller.

The marches are hardly even toughed by hard times.

Nilson, however, is the one who wipes the slate clean.

 

[fiat_knox]

Well, neither do I have to make up different endings. I LIKE MegaTraveller/HardTimes!

Clearly. I imagine that had I been on the creating end rather than the receiving end of it, you'd have hated my version.

Versions.

Oh, and I maintain that if I'd thrown in multiple possible endings, we'd not be playing Mongoose today - we'd still be playing MegaTraveller.

 

[ThunderChilde]

If it all goes down the rabbit hole of the Rebellion again, my campaign will continue in the 3I irreguardless. The 3I is a background to my campaign, a nicely painted backdrop.

It does not need a self destructive descent into the remarkably depressing Rebellion/TNE trope. I use metaplots frequently, but they are player scaled and the players can have an impact on how they play out.

I do not play games for depression or to wallow in angst, I get enough of that from my neices. I right poetry to climb out of darkness, I play games to escape from real life, why the hell would I want a game that throws me back down the well?

IF you don't want to play in the big soft encompassing Imperium, make your own OTU and ignore it, driving a stake through its heart does no good at all.

 

[mbrinkhues]

As stated above: Mega/Hard Times allowed for Clunky-Style szenarios in the classic Boring Marches setup. While adding an interesting mix of petty kingdoms and war for those who disliked the 3I setting.

It was best of both.

 

[rancke]

As stated above: Mega/Hard Times allowed for Clunky-Style szenarios in the classic Boring Marches setup. While adding an interesting mix of petty kingdoms and war for those who disliked the 3I setting.

It was best of both.

It was unneccessary. I don't know what 'Clunky-Style scenarios' are, but whatever it is, I'm positive you could find somewhere in pre-Rebellion Charted Space to run them (albeit presumably not in the Marches). The Marches weren't boring (though some of the Classic adventures didn't do them justice), and if you wanted an interesting mix of petty kingdoms and war, all you had to do was move to a region of Charted Space that had them. The Beyond, Vanguard Reaches, Far Frontiers, the Rim on the other side of the Solomani Confederation, lots of other places.

The Rebellion destroyed the 3rd Imperium setting for no good reason and to no real gain.


Hans

 

[Theophilus]

I suppose what it boils down to is the difference between SETTINGS and RULES SETS.

Settings:
Classic Imperial (CT, GT, T20, Mongoose)
Rebellion/Collapse (MT)
Empire Building (TNE)

Rules Sets:
CT
MT
TNE
T20
Gurps
Mongoose

Some complain about a setting, based upon their dislike of the Rules Set.
Some use different Rules Sets for their setting.

As I've read through the posts I see many statement to the effect of "I don't like what so and so did to" what ever setting they liked. My advice is: If you like the classic setting but like the TNE rules set, then play in the classic setting using the TNE rules. If you don't like what the Rebellion did to the Imperium ignore it.

As to the original complaint: "the characters have no effect on the metagame", Well, that was the whole point of the TNE setting. Now what one person does can have an effect.
So you'll say: "but I don't like how they did it. I don't believe in Virus, The collapse was too sudden" all right, then ignore it. collapse it how ever you like. The end results are the same.

And I agree with the previous posted statement: The problem with MT was it was all background and no adventure. At least TNE gave us the Guilded Lily series.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Mega gave us quite a few adventures

+ Assignment:Vigilant
+ Hard Times had a set of linked adventures
+ Two complete adventure/campaign sets (Flaming Eye and a second one)
+ Arrival:Vengeance

and the stuff in Challenge set in that time. Quite a bit and all of them more funny than the stuff published for Clunky like "Twilights Sleeep<<<Peak"

 

[mbrinkhues]

It was unneccessary. I don't know what 'Clunky-Style scenarios' are, but whatever it is, I'm positive you could find somewhere in pre-Rebellion Charted Space to run them (albeit presumably not in the Marches). The Marches weren't boring (though some of the Classic adventures didn't do them justice), and if you wanted an interesting mix of petty kingdoms and war, all you had to do was move to a region of Charted Space that had them. The Beyond, Vanguard Reaches, Far Frontiers, the Rim on the other side of the Solomani Confederation, lots of other places.

The Rebellion destroyed the 3rd Imperium setting for no good reason and to no real gain.


Hans

Well that is YOUR option. Mine is obviously different. And if in doubt I take mine and ignore yours.

Me and the groups I played with took a look at Clunky and almost dropped Traveller due to the crappy background. Only the arrival of Rebellion shook up the universe enough to make us return. I could always get groups to play MT or TNE timeline but the CT or GT timelines where disliked (and still are).

 

[fiat_knox]

Mega gave us quite a few adventures ...

... all of them more funny than the stuff published for Clunky like "Twilights Sleeep<<<Peak"

Believe me, a story where the characters have to fill out tax forms is funnier than Rebellion/Hard Times/Virus.

I'd have allowed the above scenarios as optional metaplot for the masochists who get turned on by it all, but just because one person doesn't like one big Imperium doesn't mean that everybody else had to live through a roleplaying game where it was all falling to ruin.

Like I said, I'd have given the readership a choice, rather than make Armageddon mandatory for everybody.

 

[aramis]

Mega didn't make Armageddon mandatory; one could play in the rather extensive safe zones with no change.

And of the then published full sectors at outset, most were either already decanonized prior to MT or unaffected by HT:
Marches, Trojan Reach, Reft: safe
Deneb: half the sector significantly affected
the ones in AM Zhodani, Aslan, Vargr, Hiver: outside the reach of the 2CW, and thus unaffected.
Solomani Rim: affected strongly; no official updates published
JG versions of Ley, Glimmerdrift, Maranatha-Alkahest, Crucis Margin: decanonized in 1984, but mostly would be unaffected.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Believe me, a story where the characters have to fill out tax forms is funnier than Rebellion/Hard Times/Virus.

I'd have allowed the above scenarios as optional metaplot for the masochists who get turned on by it all, but just because one person doesn't like one big Imperium doesn't mean that everybody else had to live through a roleplaying game where it was all falling to ruin.

Like I said, I'd have given the readership a choice, rather than make Armageddon mandatory for everybody.

As I said we played both, dropped Classic like milk gone bad and never returned. I ran groups in Hard Times and TNE but never got on in CT. I played in two CT rounds, one died due to "is that boring" by most players after three sessions the other lasted six (We had guaranteed to play through Twilights Sleep)

So quite obviously I have to and will disagree. The CT part is what almost killed Traveller for me/my groups. If not for Challenge (we where Twilight and 2300AD players) and the information on Mega it would have ended dead.

 

[Theophilus]

Mega gave us quite a few adventures

+ Assignment:Vigilant
+ Hard Times had a set of linked adventures
+ Two complete adventure/campaign sets (Flaming Eye and a second one)
+ Arrival:Vengeance

and the stuff in Challenge set in that time. Quite a bit and all of them more funny than the stuff published for Clunky like "Twilights Sleeep<<<Peak"

True, but not a part one, part two, move the storyline along adventure.
Assgnment Vigilant was more of a scenario book
Arrival Vengence was a grand tour type adventure, in short bites.
Flaming Eye was a campaign sourcebook from Digest Group
Knightfall was set in Massila sector, yet Hinterworlds was also considered for the core area, a division of resources and focus.
Hard Times was a sourcebook, with short adventure hooks.
Then there's the Astrogators guide to Diaspora.

Basically MT was all over the place with no true vision or core area. Unlike CT which was mostly set in the Spinward Marches.

In other words MT floundered due to lack of focus.

 

[ThunderChilde]

See, we fall in completely different player groups. We stuck with CT and MT as systems, mostly playing in ATU's. We watched a good concept of a playing background get wrecked and take GDW down the rails with it. We had no appetite for the downward spiral or wretchedness of Hard Times/Virus.

I had a hard time getting my group to try MGT because of the memories of what we all disliked with a passion.

To be clear, we played Twilight 2000, and adapted the system to a couple different backgrounds. Played 2300 at a con, and never touched it again, didn't care for it. We still play CyberPunk, the last campaign I ended to run MGT. Down in the dirt struggle is not a problem. What was done to the OTU was. It was pointless as an excercise to expand the franchise the was the OTU.

I understand you liked the arc of destruction, they could have reached a propper inteller dark ages without the Virus, it was pure Deus Ex Machina, of the worst stripe. Traveller didn't need demons and dragons, and that is the trope of Virus. Here there be dragons on a sector map rather than on a parchment, same difference.

Thats how I see it and feel about it.

Play Traveller, Have Fun, That Is All.

 

[rancke]

Well that is YOUR option. Mine is obviously different.

Of course it's my opinion. You expressed your opinion, I expressed mine. I trust you don't have a problem with that?

And if in doubt I take mine and ignore yours.

It would be exceeding odd if you didn't.

The thing is, you also made a provably false statement, namely that it isn't possible to run exiting adventures in the pre-Rebellion OTU. You seem to be taking the fact that some of the adventures that were written for this setting 30 years ago bored you to prove that it's impossible to write non-boring adventures for the same setting, a classic fallacy known as arguing from the specific to the general. The fact that you've seen some red cows does not prove that all cows are red.


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

The fact that after 30 years one has yet to produce a useabel, funny adventure for Clunky DOES make it highly unlike that it ever will happen. That's reason enough for me to ditch the setting.

After all I don't have to PROOF anything, I'll just have to decide wether I buy some stuff or don't. And maybe tell others of my decision. That's all. That I won't convice clunky or canon fanatics is clear. OTOH I don't care about those.

 

[rancke]

The fact that after 30 years one has yet to produce a useabel, funny adventure for Clunky DOES make it highly unlike that it ever will happen.

Oh dear. That hurts. And here I thought I'd written quite a few. Since you've evidently read all of them, it should be child's play for you to list the fatal flaws in a couple of them, just to back up that hyperbolic opinion.

After all I don't have to PROOF anything, I'll just have to decide wether I buy some stuff or don't.

Depends on what you want to achieve. If you want people to take you seriously, you do need to back up your opinions, excuse me, facts.

And although I can't speak for anyone at Mongoose, I suspect that if you want to convince Mongoose to drop the Classic Era and turn to the Rebellion (as you suggested in one of your previous screeds) you'll need to do something more than just state your unadorned opinion.

That I won't convince clunky or canon fanatics is clear. OTOH I don't care about those.

You won't convince anyone else either if you don't back your opinions.


Hans

 

[ThunderChilde]

I may be mistaken, but by the derogatory slang of Clunky are you referring to the OTU?

If so, I'd point out my observation that a player friendly adventuring concept being called clunky while you tote the virtues of a pattenly player unfriendly chaotic concept strikes me as quite ironic. Not to meantion the errata fest that they are as systems, or the maniacly crunchy design systems they had.

I posit that you already have what you want and enjoy, so have fun with TNE, and I'll have fun with MGT as is.