mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
MegaTraveller not TNE. And no, clunky does not refer to the OTU as a whole but to the 1105/Spinward Marches setting (and the originally rules system to a lesser degreee). MT/TNE is just as much OTU as every other canon setting
Falling Imperium
- Thread starter fiat_knox
- Start date
MegaTraveller not TNE. And no, clunky does not refer to the OTU as a whole but to the 1105/Spinward Marches setting (and the originally rules system to a lesser degreee). MT/TNE is just as much OTU as every other canon setting
Y'see, here's the thing.
From the start, the "CT part" was Traveller. It wasn't "clunky:" It wasn't "Classic" anything. It was the one and only Traveller.
In the 1970s / early 1980s, there were no competing Traveller streams. Just this one - the OTU. Roleplaying games were in their infancy, with little of the sophistication one sees in modern RPGs. When we say that modern RPGs have "learned lessons from the errors of their predecessors," they're talking about the errors committed by this game and D&D, back in the day.
But they needed the foundation of this game to build on. Traveller had rough edges, but the premise was sound. Sound enough that you can run the game from the original LBBs today.
MegaTraveller could not have possibly existed at all without "clunky evil" Traveller to form its foundation. But while MT may have "learned from the mistakes ofl its predecessor," its publishers did not realise that it had committed brand new errors of their own, errors which resulted in MT being fatally flawed.
The flaw was this:- while the engine was solid, the setting was b0rked. And since the book stitched the engine into the setting such that you couldn't really extract the engine without having to reinvent the whole damned game, nobody bought the game. Those who had bought it found themselves throwing the books away in disgust, and then spreading the word far and wide that "MT's a huge disappointment. Nice engine, but it sucks."
It was well written but badly marketed, and consequently the market killed the game.
The market is why, when Mongoose developed their version of Traveller, the model they went by was Classic Traveller's Little Black Books. They kept the bright, shiny MegaTraveller-style covers specifically for the 3I books, and took pains to separate out the engine from the setting such that you could continue to enjoy Traveller even if Mongoose brought the 3I all crashing down around our ears all over again.
Here's where it works, and where I hope it will survive long after I've set aside my own dice and hung up my Refereeing shingles; Mongoose have learned the lessons from both MT and CT:-
1. Don't put them to sleep with a monologuing supergenius Mary Sue.
2. Don't have them just sit back and twiddle their thumbs when you pull down the house around them.
3. If you want an adventure with intrigue, those FGMP-15s go back in the closet.
4. "It's not all buttons and charts, little albatross."
5. If you don't like the Official Setting, make up your own. By the way, here's how. Also, if you want to play in somebody else's sandbox, here are a few alternate settings you might want to try.
6. Futureproof the engine.
7. Let's not forget that in the end, it's all about the players having fun. And that means giving the characters things to do.
And you know one thing nobody's actually pointed out. Strephon's assassination seemingly brought about the collapse of the Imperium. How?
Julius Caesar was assassinated; the Roman Empire did not fall. Abraham Lincoln and Kennedy were both assassinated, and yet you're still living in the same United States of America that they ruled over. We've even had one or two Prime Ministers and Kings over here in the UK bumped off, and Blighty still prevails somehow.
It seems really unlikely that the Third Imperium would really fall apart so readily, unless somehow it wanted to die. And in general, the vast press of people living in a given society will do whatever it takes for that society to survive. They wouldn't let a ragtag group of pretender Emperors take the Imperium to war - they'd do something about it. And in the end, the Imperium would still prevail somehow. Even as Rome is still with us, albeit radically changed from the original capital of the Roman Empire.
The ending of the 3I came through the most unlikely coincidences and an implausble Deus ex Machina. And that's why nobody plays MT any more.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Strange, you must live in a different universe. Guess I'll have to check than quantum mirror in Area 51...
MT ran for quite some time with lots of stuff published in Challenge and more than a few adventures in the Digest. And it didn't kill GDW either. The engine was no more welded to the setting than with CT or TNE. Actually running the MT setting with an other Traveller engine or parts thereof is easy. I.e using TNE chargen but the MT setting (best chargen with best engine)
So I guess it's more "where you are people didn't like MT" or "the few die hard CT fans on the Mailing list didn't like MT" than "nobody likes MT.
As for Rome: The Roman EMPIRE could not die together with Cäsar. It did not exist after all. The Roman REPUBLIC died with him. What followed where 13 years of civil war that ended with Augustus becoming the first Emperor. Quite a shakeup!
Charles I was behaded after a nice civil war and at that time England already was a parlamentarian monarchie with a strong gentry. And even then Cromwell had quite a bit of trouble internally. And England (it was not yet GB) was relatively homogenous when it comes to culture and all. The 3I isn't
Democracies work different. There is an elected replacement that steps up so you can kill quite a few guys before it has effect. Even then loosing Lincoln might have delayed and hampered the re-attachment of the Confederation a lot since his replacement was a lot harsher on the "Rebells" than Lincoln had planned.
In Monarchies a monarch can die without problems IF he has an established heir of the proper age (18+) and clear succession. If not there are problems. Both English and German history are full of those problems and the resulting civil wars. England was lucky that there was a clear winner (House of Tudor) but Germany has fragmentet due to this quite a few times and fought endless internal wars (on a small but damaging scale) between the 10th and 15th century.
MT ran for quite some time with lots of stuff published in Challenge and more than a few adventures in the Digest. And it didn't kill GDW either. The engine was no more welded to the setting than with CT or TNE. Actually running the MT setting with an other Traveller engine or parts thereof is easy. I.e using TNE chargen but the MT setting (best chargen with best engine)
So I guess it's more "where you are people didn't like MT" or "the few die hard CT fans on the Mailing list didn't like MT" than "nobody likes MT.
As for Rome: The Roman EMPIRE could not die together with Cäsar. It did not exist after all. The Roman REPUBLIC died with him. What followed where 13 years of civil war that ended with Augustus becoming the first Emperor. Quite a shakeup!
Charles I was behaded after a nice civil war and at that time England already was a parlamentarian monarchie with a strong gentry. And even then Cromwell had quite a bit of trouble internally. And England (it was not yet GB) was relatively homogenous when it comes to culture and all. The 3I isn't
Democracies work different. There is an elected replacement that steps up so you can kill quite a few guys before it has effect. Even then loosing Lincoln might have delayed and hampered the re-attachment of the Confederation a lot since his replacement was a lot harsher on the "Rebells" than Lincoln had planned.
In Monarchies a monarch can die without problems IF he has an established heir of the proper age (18+) and clear succession. If not there are problems. Both English and German history are full of those problems and the resulting civil wars. England was lucky that there was a clear winner (House of Tudor) but Germany has fragmentet due to this quite a few times and fought endless internal wars (on a small but damaging scale) between the 10th and 15th century.
I know that I've met plenty of people who love the CT setting, hate the CT rules. I've met many who love the MT rules, but they are pretty evenly divided on the Rebellion Era as a setting.
Almost all the TNE fans I've met were new to Traveller with TNE; many of them came to dislike the TNE setting upon learning more about the CT and MT Settings.
That said, I'd rather have seen MT2.0 rather than CT3 (which Mongoose tries very hard to be; and in a good way, fails miserably at*...) or T4.2, or worst of all, TNE2.0...
MGT wound up being a new engine... it's not CT; it works very differently from CT, and in some ways, it's a wholly new engine.
But the CT setting, the grand old Third Imperium, is far from "boring"... tho it lacks the obvious excitement of the Rebellion or New Era military-themes. There's plenty of room for small scale military action in the Classic setting (and the Mongoose and SJG variations thereupon). There's plenty of room for intrigue, major plots and strokes, and PC's of any level of involvement. ANd for the big fleet actions, there's the 5FW (and dropping back a decade or two, the 4FW and SRW).
The difference between an MT era adventure in the Marches and a Classic Era one is under half-a dozen worlds in different hands, and the possibility of some Zhodani defectors... The Rebellion really has no direct impacts upon the Marches as a setting, but does open up some political games.
-=-=-=-
* If it had, truly, been mechanically CT 3.0, I think it would have flopped pretty badly. CT rules had been showing their age since the mid 80's... Gareth did a good job of capturing the good parts of CT, and dropping the bad. Not my favorite, but decent enough.
Almost all the TNE fans I've met were new to Traveller with TNE; many of them came to dislike the TNE setting upon learning more about the CT and MT Settings.
That said, I'd rather have seen MT2.0 rather than CT3 (which Mongoose tries very hard to be; and in a good way, fails miserably at*...) or T4.2, or worst of all, TNE2.0...
MGT wound up being a new engine... it's not CT; it works very differently from CT, and in some ways, it's a wholly new engine.
But the CT setting, the grand old Third Imperium, is far from "boring"... tho it lacks the obvious excitement of the Rebellion or New Era military-themes. There's plenty of room for small scale military action in the Classic setting (and the Mongoose and SJG variations thereupon). There's plenty of room for intrigue, major plots and strokes, and PC's of any level of involvement. ANd for the big fleet actions, there's the 5FW (and dropping back a decade or two, the 4FW and SRW).
The difference between an MT era adventure in the Marches and a Classic Era one is under half-a dozen worlds in different hands, and the possibility of some Zhodani defectors... The Rebellion really has no direct impacts upon the Marches as a setting, but does open up some political games.
-=-=-=-
* If it had, truly, been mechanically CT 3.0, I think it would have flopped pretty badly. CT rules had been showing their age since the mid 80's... Gareth did a good job of capturing the good parts of CT, and dropping the bad. Not my favorite, but decent enough.
I was one of the new-to-Trav-by-TNE ones, and I still enjoy it. Though if I were going to use it I'd use CT, MT or MGT rules.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Since I would not play in the Marches if one pays me for it the switch to the Rebellion timeline opens up a lot more game opportunities for me. It has the benefits of using a sharp difference between "The Safes" and "The wilds" while allowing for all the nice things (pirats, small fleet actions etc) without the problems attached to the SM or the 1105 timeline in general (Over-mighty Imperial navy, German-German border style diplomatic situation etc)
ThunderChilde
SOC-13
In a wierd way we are somewhat of a similarr bent M. If my players want some freedom of action, they head for the frontiers and cross out of the Imperium to where they have a freer hand, and higher risks. Want small fleet action, anywhere along the Aslan border works, so does District 268, amoung many, many other border sectors.
The only core Imperium campaign I ever ran was a merchant group running a frieghter trying to live in the middle of a MegaCorp trade war. They had fun.
I've run games allover the Imperium, most of them weren't in the SM. My current one started there, but hasn't stayed there. Players can be migratory lifeforms if you let them roam, some will.
The only core Imperium campaign I ever ran was a merchant group running a frieghter trying to live in the middle of a MegaCorp trade war. They had fun.
I've run games allover the Imperium, most of them weren't in the SM. My current one started there, but hasn't stayed there. Players can be migratory lifeforms if you let them roam, some will.
Thing about MT & TNE is that it is very much grounded in the 1980s Noir aka cyberpunk (even if you take away the cyber...there was much in a punkish attitude that informed those games). The further we move away from the 1980s the less those games feel playable. TNE also in the best possible worlds was designed with Hardcore Traveller fans in mind (although it backfired) for all the obscure cannon references and tracings stretch back into the CT era and unless you were prepared to do alot of reading...TNE just did not jive.
I think the problem with TNE was that they did not go into the Dark far enough...it retained elements of the happy future that CT projected whilst keeping the Dark at bay. For if you look at many of the fan efforts at the time, they were much darker and more sensual. GDW was determined to say things were gray and clean. However, this decision paved the way for other games which further eroded the fan base.
Had they had the Internet like we have it now (ubicious & near universal) they might have learnt to re-release CT and other forms of Traveller supported under one roof but they did not as they believed in sequential gaming - one game system should build upon another again a problem of market research.
I think the problem with TNE was that they did not go into the Dark far enough...it retained elements of the happy future that CT projected whilst keeping the Dark at bay. For if you look at many of the fan efforts at the time, they were much darker and more sensual. GDW was determined to say things were gray and clean. However, this decision paved the way for other games which further eroded the fan base.
Had they had the Internet like we have it now (ubicious & near universal) they might have learnt to re-release CT and other forms of Traveller supported under one roof but they did not as they believed in sequential gaming - one game system should build upon another again a problem of market research.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
I must admit that I can't see the grounding in 1980s Noir/Cyberpunk. Even less so since I actively DISLIKE that styles and the parts of society associated with it but LIKE MT/TNE.
It is different from the "happy future" SciFi of the 1950s/60s. But the same is true for i.e 2300AD and that isn't "Punk" either. But neither MT/Hard Times that has a "the situation has stabilized/we are building a future" (In HT/Assignment:Vigilanty) nor TNE with it's "rebuilding from the rubble" has the "overwhelmend by technology" and "the future is bleak" outlook of Cyberpunk stuff
It is different from the "happy future" SciFi of the 1950s/60s. But the same is true for i.e 2300AD and that isn't "Punk" either. But neither MT/Hard Times that has a "the situation has stabilized/we are building a future" (In HT/Assignment:Vigilanty) nor TNE with it's "rebuilding from the rubble" has the "overwhelmend by technology" and "the future is bleak" outlook of Cyberpunk stuff
There was an internet when TNE was released; I in fact first found out about TNE via the 'net. My email at the time was aswfh@uaa.alaska.edu (starting in 1989 and through 1996) and aramis@fredbox.cojones.com (1991-1994). What would become known as the internet in about 1993 was already present and running... on the .mil and .edu backbone systems, as well as a lot of fidonet and uucp links.
GDW as a whole might not have been net savvy at the time of TNE's release (and I've learned that neither Loren nor Marc were) but SOMEONE there was... as the nets were getting all the info about a month ahead of the announcements.
If anything, TNE was resonant with a lot of people on the net at the time... Geeks and freaks...
GDW as a whole might not have been net savvy at the time of TNE's release (and I've learned that neither Loren nor Marc were) but SOMEONE there was... as the nets were getting all the info about a month ahead of the announcements.
If anything, TNE was resonant with a lot of people on the net at the time... Geeks and freaks...
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
What does the Internet (that exists since the late 1970s) have to do with TNE? And newsgroups are not new either (been using them since 1987, mostly technical ones). Neither the idea of using them as feedback platforms.
And those who used the Net back then and those who liked SciFi RPG where overlapping heavily. "Arts" students don't use computers and mice are what they have under the bed
And those who used the Net back then and those who liked SciFi RPG where overlapping heavily. "Arts" students don't use computers and mice are what they have under the bed
Which might not have been a good thing.
Here are some snippets about that as described by Dave Nilson during that time.
quoted from a text response that Dave Nilson wrote back in Dec, 2004
=======================
"Well, we found a lot of the listservs to be pretty hostile in general, and pretty
hostile to us in particular."
"At one point Frank required us to spend our lunch hours answering game questions
maybe every day or one day a week or something, but we could never keep up."
Every once in a while we'd try to respond to some of it, but it always caused
more trouble than it solved (flame wars), and so we'd swear off of it for like
six months, then we'd get conned back into it again, and we'd have another
disastrous experience, and the cycle would just repeat itself. I can honestly
not remember if I ever posted a message (actually, give to Loren to take home
and post). I remember Frank would occasionally post one (via Loren), and these
were sometimes when he was honked off about the existing hostile messages."
"We used to have lots of friends in the other gaming companies. And they always
used to make fun of us for the negative virulence of our Traveller fans. They'd
always say, "it sucks to be you guys. ShadowRun/Vampire fans never say, 'we hate
you, but you'd better not let the next product be late!' the way Traveller fans
do." Yeah, well, it sucked to be us, but we were lucky to be us, too. I wouldn't
have traded it for the world, not even now, knowing what it cost me. But the
Internet guys were the most concentrated, virulent population of that ethic.
See Challenge 59 1/2, page 6MW, "Cheez Whiz Statistics," for GDW's most
cogent word on all of that."
===========================
the full text from that interview ( which should be recognizable to the majority of people here ) can be found at:
http://www.cgi101.com/~lkw/AskDave.txt
Apparently, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
