FFE 16: Second Survey
- Thread starter Vargas
- Start date
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vargas:
What is this product?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If it is what Marc and I talked about... it will be the Atlas of the Imperium as a hardcover complete with correct Second Survey data. The cover would be a blow up of the original Atlas Cover with Traveller: Second Survey imblazed in silver along the top.
But, Marc was not sure if people are interested in a product like this. Voice your opinion here and might get it by Gen Con.
What is this product?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If it is what Marc and I talked about... it will be the Atlas of the Imperium as a hardcover complete with correct Second Survey data. The cover would be a blow up of the original Atlas Cover with Traveller: Second Survey imblazed in silver along the top.
But, Marc was not sure if people are interested in a product like this. Voice your opinion here and might get it by Gen Con.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kafka47:
If it is what Marc and I talked about... it will be the Atlas of the Imperium as a hardcover complete with correct Second Survey data. The cover would be a blow up of the original Atlas Cover with Traveller: Second Survey imblazed in silver along the top.
But, Marc was not sure if people are interested in a product like this. Voice your opinion here and might get it by Gen Con.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think Marc was right -- considering that AotI will be included in the Modules reprint and the Second Survey data is available for free online, I can't see much appeal for such a product to anyone but a handful of collectors(especially at hardbound (i.e. $30+) prices).
Now, if the AotI maps are redone up to the standard of DGP's maps (including names for all worlds, xboat routes, etc.) and the Second Survey data 'massaged' (not just correcting the obvious/known glitches, but also regularizing/de-randomizing the results for all 35 sectors in the manner of what was done with the original Marches and Rim) there might be more of an audience (though the memory of T4's abominable First Survey will be awfully hard to erase).
What might really make this product worthwhile would be to include a few pages of Library Data for each sector, in the manner of the old Travellers' Digest write-ups, but I suppose that runs us once again into the perennial wall of R*g*r S*ng*r.
If it is what Marc and I talked about... it will be the Atlas of the Imperium as a hardcover complete with correct Second Survey data. The cover would be a blow up of the original Atlas Cover with Traveller: Second Survey imblazed in silver along the top.
But, Marc was not sure if people are interested in a product like this. Voice your opinion here and might get it by Gen Con.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think Marc was right -- considering that AotI will be included in the Modules reprint and the Second Survey data is available for free online, I can't see much appeal for such a product to anyone but a handful of collectors(especially at hardbound (i.e. $30+) prices).
Now, if the AotI maps are redone up to the standard of DGP's maps (including names for all worlds, xboat routes, etc.) and the Second Survey data 'massaged' (not just correcting the obvious/known glitches, but also regularizing/de-randomizing the results for all 35 sectors in the manner of what was done with the original Marches and Rim) there might be more of an audience (though the memory of T4's abominable First Survey will be awfully hard to erase).
What might really make this product worthwhile would be to include a few pages of Library Data for each sector, in the manner of the old Travellers' Digest write-ups, but I suppose that runs us once again into the perennial wall of R*g*r S*ng*r.
Hello everyone This is my first post on these message boards even though I've been lurking here for the longest time.
In response to Humter's question, I would love to see a complete Atlas of the Imperium hardcover. If anything I think it would cut down on the Canon wars that tend to go on. Just my opinion.
In response to Humter's question, I would love to see a complete Atlas of the Imperium hardcover. If anything I think it would cut down on the Canon wars that tend to go on. Just my opinion.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kafka47:
But, Marc was not sure if people are interested in a product like this. Voice your opinion here and might get it by Gen Con.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You'd have to do something really special with the maps and new data to any interest from me.
Like Mr. Foster said, the data's already online for free. I've got three different programs to map the data, plus three online sources for maps with the current and modified data. Huge chunks of data (like 35 sectors) really require a computer to work with.
But, Marc was not sure if people are interested in a product like this. Voice your opinion here and might get it by Gen Con.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You'd have to do something really special with the maps and new data to any interest from me.
Like Mr. Foster said, the data's already online for free. I've got three different programs to map the data, plus three online sources for maps with the current and modified data. Huge chunks of data (like 35 sectors) really require a computer to work with.
DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Swordsage:
Hello everyone This is my first post on these message boards even though I've been lurking here for the longest time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Welcome aboard
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In response to Humter's question, I would love to see a complete Atlas of the Imperium hardcover. If anything I think it would cut down on the Canon wars that tend to go on. Just my opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your naivety is refreshing. However adding more canon merely adds more sides to the multisided canon conflicts.
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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
Hello everyone This is my first post on these message boards even though I've been lurking here for the longest time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Welcome aboard
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In response to Humter's question, I would love to see a complete Atlas of the Imperium hardcover. If anything I think it would cut down on the Canon wars that tend to go on. Just my opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your naivety is refreshing. However adding more canon merely adds more sides to the multisided canon conflicts.
------------------
I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
Tsarith DeGaalth
SOC-5
I don't want a single big book of UPP's. I can generate UPP;s in minutes. IF you are going to publish references on the 3I, i would rather see it done on a smaller scale, say 1 sector or so, with a lot more detail on each world. Behind the Claw for GT is al ot more useful for me than 1st survey was,or even the LBB Spinward Marches supplement.
UPP's don't give any characte to a world, IMHO, they just give raw data. There's not enough info in them to make buying a book of them worthwhile.
UPP's don't give any characte to a world, IMHO, they just give raw data. There's not enough info in them to make buying a book of them worthwhile.
Originally posted by David Shayne:
'Your naivety is refreshing. However adding more canon merely adds more sides to the multisided canon conflicts.'
In my personal opinion this is a little bit rude, especially given that the a new citizen wrote this,
The reality of the Traveller universe is that ultimately there is only one arbiter of that thing called 'canon' - and that's MWM - if you don't like it, then re-write it (thats the joy of RPG's)!
On the other hand . . .
I thought the Atlas of the Imperium was a bit of a ham (or to put it bluntly, a completely c**p) product and could have done with a bit more effort. A Second Survey with exposes on key worlds in the Imperium, trade systems in each subsector, short essays on political configurations and conflicts and a detailed appendix on navy and scout bases would be an awesome addition to the Classic Traveller universe.
Hopefully Marc will put his considerable thinking cap on and launch the first new official CT product for a long time.
'Your naivety is refreshing. However adding more canon merely adds more sides to the multisided canon conflicts.'
In my personal opinion this is a little bit rude, especially given that the a new citizen wrote this,
The reality of the Traveller universe is that ultimately there is only one arbiter of that thing called 'canon' - and that's MWM - if you don't like it, then re-write it (thats the joy of RPG's)!
On the other hand . . .
I thought the Atlas of the Imperium was a bit of a ham (or to put it bluntly, a completely c**p) product and could have done with a bit more effort. A Second Survey with exposes on key worlds in the Imperium, trade systems in each subsector, short essays on political configurations and conflicts and a detailed appendix on navy and scout bases would be an awesome addition to the Classic Traveller universe.
Hopefully Marc will put his considerable thinking cap on and launch the first new official CT product for a long time.
DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elliot:
Originally posted by David Shayne:
'Your naivety is refreshing. However adding more canon merely adds more sides to the multisided canon conflicts.'
In my personal opinion this is a little bit rude, especially given that the a new citizen wrote this, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I certainly didn't intend to be rude. Perhaps you associate the word naivety with a pejorative connotation that it doesn't neccesarily have (and which I certainly didn't mean to imply.)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The reality of the Traveller universe is that ultimately there is only one arbiter of that thing called 'canon' - and that's MWM - if you don't like it, then re-write it (thats the joy of RPG's)!
On the other hand . . .
I thought the Atlas of the Imperium was a bit of a ham (or to put it bluntly, a completely c**p) product and could have done with a bit more effort.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And there are no doubt many individuals who would disagree with you and will feel compelled to defend their prefered version of the universe of Traveller against all comers. Hence another skirmish in the canon wars.
------------------
I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
Originally posted by David Shayne:
'Your naivety is refreshing. However adding more canon merely adds more sides to the multisided canon conflicts.'
In my personal opinion this is a little bit rude, especially given that the a new citizen wrote this, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I certainly didn't intend to be rude. Perhaps you associate the word naivety with a pejorative connotation that it doesn't neccesarily have (and which I certainly didn't mean to imply.)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The reality of the Traveller universe is that ultimately there is only one arbiter of that thing called 'canon' - and that's MWM - if you don't like it, then re-write it (thats the joy of RPG's)!
On the other hand . . .
I thought the Atlas of the Imperium was a bit of a ham (or to put it bluntly, a completely c**p) product and could have done with a bit more effort.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And there are no doubt many individuals who would disagree with you and will feel compelled to defend their prefered version of the universe of Traveller against all comers. Hence another skirmish in the canon wars.
------------------
I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.
David Shayne
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Swordsage:
Hello everyone This is my first post on these message boards even though I've been lurking here for the longest time.
In response to Humter's question, I would love to see a complete Atlas of the Imperium hardcover. If anything I think it would cut down on the Canon wars that tend to go on. Just my opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree.
However, for it to work, it needs several things...
first: Every world needs a name.
Second: each sector needs not one, but at least two maps. One traditional Traveller Map, and one T&C map (use the trade routes maps ala Anthony Jackson's works (See the marched map at http://www.grandsurvey.com/sec/ec.spinward_marches.pdf ), but including trade codes for us NON-GT types.
Third: each sector needs some library data, and the known minor races need to be placed into homeworlds and covered in the library data. (Esp the older ones like Virush, Newt, and Ael Yeal), and it should cover beyond the borders, as well.
fourth: maps need to have color.
if it meets those criteria, I'd go ahead and blow the $40 I'd expect it to run. Not once, but twice. Once for collection, once for play.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Hello everyone This is my first post on these message boards even though I've been lurking here for the longest time.
In response to Humter's question, I would love to see a complete Atlas of the Imperium hardcover. If anything I think it would cut down on the Canon wars that tend to go on. Just my opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree.
However, for it to work, it needs several things...
first: Every world needs a name.
Second: each sector needs not one, but at least two maps. One traditional Traveller Map, and one T&C map (use the trade routes maps ala Anthony Jackson's works (See the marched map at http://www.grandsurvey.com/sec/ec.spinward_marches.pdf ), but including trade codes for us NON-GT types.
Third: each sector needs some library data, and the known minor races need to be placed into homeworlds and covered in the library data. (Esp the older ones like Virush, Newt, and Ael Yeal), and it should cover beyond the borders, as well.
fourth: maps need to have color.
if it meets those criteria, I'd go ahead and blow the $40 I'd expect it to run. Not once, but twice. Once for collection, once for play.
------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Shadow Bear
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
I agree.
However, for it to work, it needs several things...
first: Every world needs a name.
Second: each sector needs not one, but at least two maps. One traditional Traveller Map, and one T&C map (use the trade routes maps ala Anthony Jackson's works (See the marched map at http://www.grandsurvey.com/sec/ec.spinward_marches.pdf ), but including trade codes for us NON-GT types.
Third: each sector needs some library data, and the known minor races need to be placed into homeworlds and covered in the library data. (Esp the older ones like Virush, Newt, and Ael Yeal), and it should cover beyond the borders, as well.
fourth: maps need to have color.
if it meets those criteria, I'd go ahead and blow the $40 I'd expect it to run. Not once, but twice. Once for collection, once for play.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed!!! Atlas was close to trash as far as graphic appeal. Detail was lacking. No character at all.
Both sector and sub-sector maps are needed. At least as much detail on each sub-sector as Supplement 3. Color is also needed. Background should be white so players or refrees can plot courses and or make notes.
While the Judges Guild maps for D&D were of top quality, the Traveller maps sucked. They looked like amature comic book stuff.
Add color to a Supplement 3 type product and you will have a winner.
I agree.
However, for it to work, it needs several things...
first: Every world needs a name.
Second: each sector needs not one, but at least two maps. One traditional Traveller Map, and one T&C map (use the trade routes maps ala Anthony Jackson's works (See the marched map at http://www.grandsurvey.com/sec/ec.spinward_marches.pdf ), but including trade codes for us NON-GT types.
Third: each sector needs some library data, and the known minor races need to be placed into homeworlds and covered in the library data. (Esp the older ones like Virush, Newt, and Ael Yeal), and it should cover beyond the borders, as well.
fourth: maps need to have color.
if it meets those criteria, I'd go ahead and blow the $40 I'd expect it to run. Not once, but twice. Once for collection, once for play.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed!!! Atlas was close to trash as far as graphic appeal. Detail was lacking. No character at all.
Both sector and sub-sector maps are needed. At least as much detail on each sub-sector as Supplement 3. Color is also needed. Background should be white so players or refrees can plot courses and or make notes.
While the Judges Guild maps for D&D were of top quality, the Traveller maps sucked. They looked like amature comic book stuff.
Add color to a Supplement 3 type product and you will have a winner.
A clarification: this product would include updated trade routes, hex design, plus the UPP data. And, if you want him to include Library Data, you ought to petition for it. Most of the elusive cannon (read: DGP) has been reproduced elsewhere that which has could be added.
Such a product would be really attractive to me if it had world names, X-boat routes and quality maps. I have not been buying the reprints thusfar because I have everything, but this would add enough new material that I would buy it. Library data for each sector would be good too, and possibly a description of each subsector.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vargas:
One difficulty encountered in the past (and encountered in part again in GT Behind the Claw) is the burnout factor from trying to make such a large area consistently interesting. (DGP suffered from this in my opinion but that's another rant. . .)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're exactly right here. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, most Sectors in the Imperium aren't even SUPPOSED to be interesting -- I picture hundreds upon hundreds of indistinguishable Pop 7 TL C worlds -- and that's the point. The reason all the early development occured on the frontiers (be it the Marches and Rim, Gateway Quadrant, the Old Expanses, or Reaver's Deep) is because that's where the interesting stuff is. Prior to the Rebellion, I see no reason why anyone would ever need to know the precise details of every single world in, say, Zarushagar, Gushmege, and Dagudashaag sectors.
One difficulty encountered in the past (and encountered in part again in GT Behind the Claw) is the burnout factor from trying to make such a large area consistently interesting. (DGP suffered from this in my opinion but that's another rant. . .)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're exactly right here. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, most Sectors in the Imperium aren't even SUPPOSED to be interesting -- I picture hundreds upon hundreds of indistinguishable Pop 7 TL C worlds -- and that's the point. The reason all the early development occured on the frontiers (be it the Marches and Rim, Gateway Quadrant, the Old Expanses, or Reaver's Deep) is because that's where the interesting stuff is. Prior to the Rebellion, I see no reason why anyone would ever need to know the precise details of every single world in, say, Zarushagar, Gushmege, and Dagudashaag sectors.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
I see no reason why anyone would ever need to know the precise details of every single world in, say, Zarushagar, Gushmege, and Dagudashaag sectors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with obsessive-compulsive disorders.
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"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao
I see no reason why anyone would ever need to know the precise details of every single world in, say, Zarushagar, Gushmege, and Dagudashaag sectors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with obsessive-compulsive disorders.
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"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thrash:
Random world generation is fine for individual referees producing their first Traveller setting, but it is no basis for creating the canon to underlay the entire Official Traveller Universe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I totally agree with this statement. A book of just randomly created stats, whether for worlds or for npcs, is pretty much useless in this day and age. I can easily make a program that can generate thousands of systems with stats in seconds- no big deal.
I would much prefer that only a few domains are documented- Spinward Marchs, Solamani Rim, etc. These are for GM's who want the work done for them. Everything else should be non-documented, so that the gm's who want to create their own systems can do so without worrying about what's canon or not and still stay in the imperium.
Random world generation is fine for individual referees producing their first Traveller setting, but it is no basis for creating the canon to underlay the entire Official Traveller Universe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I totally agree with this statement. A book of just randomly created stats, whether for worlds or for npcs, is pretty much useless in this day and age. I can easily make a program that can generate thousands of systems with stats in seconds- no big deal.
I would much prefer that only a few domains are documented- Spinward Marchs, Solamani Rim, etc. These are for GM's who want the work done for them. Everything else should be non-documented, so that the gm's who want to create their own systems can do so without worrying about what's canon or not and still stay in the imperium.
Simon Jester
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mshensley:
I totally agree with this statement. A book of just randomly created stats, whether for worlds or for npcs, is pretty much useless in this day and age. I can easily make a program that can generate thousands of systems with stats in seconds- no big deal.
I would much prefer that only a few domains are documented- Spinward Marchs, Solamani Rim, etc. These are for GM's who want the work done for them. Everything else should be non-documented, so that the gm's who want to create their own systems can do so without worrying about what's canon or not and still stay in the imperium.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed. Were this book to be published, I would undoubtedly buy it, being both a Traveller completist and being an inveterate map fanatic.
However, a book similar to what has been mentioned in this thread, yet limited to covering only a single Domain at a time, this I would find far more useful. It would be able to cover its territory in far greater detail, yet not so much detail that the GM doesn't have plenty of room to personalize the information. This would also allow GMs to pick up only those books covering areas they are interested in, without wasting space and money on stuff they have no use for.
Similar books could be worked up for areas outside the Imperium, especially the Solomani Sphere and The Julian Protectorate. They're both just about the right size for a book of this type.
Also, it should be put out in the open-flat perfect-bind that I've seen used for one or two other game books. This would be a bit more expensive than regular perfect-binding, but it would make the book more durable, and allow photocopying (for personal use only, of course) without risking breaking the spine.
So Says,
Simon Jester
------------------
Good. Fast. Cheap.
Pick two.
I totally agree with this statement. A book of just randomly created stats, whether for worlds or for npcs, is pretty much useless in this day and age. I can easily make a program that can generate thousands of systems with stats in seconds- no big deal.
I would much prefer that only a few domains are documented- Spinward Marchs, Solamani Rim, etc. These are for GM's who want the work done for them. Everything else should be non-documented, so that the gm's who want to create their own systems can do so without worrying about what's canon or not and still stay in the imperium.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed. Were this book to be published, I would undoubtedly buy it, being both a Traveller completist and being an inveterate map fanatic.
However, a book similar to what has been mentioned in this thread, yet limited to covering only a single Domain at a time, this I would find far more useful. It would be able to cover its territory in far greater detail, yet not so much detail that the GM doesn't have plenty of room to personalize the information. This would also allow GMs to pick up only those books covering areas they are interested in, without wasting space and money on stuff they have no use for.
Similar books could be worked up for areas outside the Imperium, especially the Solomani Sphere and The Julian Protectorate. They're both just about the right size for a book of this type.
Also, it should be put out in the open-flat perfect-bind that I've seen used for one or two other game books. This would be a bit more expensive than regular perfect-binding, but it would make the book more durable, and allow photocopying (for personal use only, of course) without risking breaking the spine.
So Says,
Simon Jester
------------------
Good. Fast. Cheap.
Pick two.
