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FFS3 for T5

Originally posted by Anthony:
Five minutes is actually unrealistic for any extant Traveller ship design system if you're making any effort to optimize, though it's adequate for merchant ships and other transports where you can just go 'the rest of the ship is cargo'.
Yep, completely agree.

Rating Traveller design sequences in order of complexity, I would say:
Book 2
Book 5
T20 & GURPS Traveller -- main book or Interstellar Wars
MT & BL TA & QSDS/SSDS & GT Starships

GURPS Vehicles
Fire Fusion and Steel (either version)
I'm not sure where MegaTraveller falls on this list, I suspect somewhere in the middle.
Good list.
I've added in itallics my thoughts on the missing design systems.[/qb][/quote]

I would consider GURPS Traveller about the limit of what is acceptable to the casual user, though QSDS/SSDS could possibly be massaged into acceptability. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I think the GT ISW design system is the best I've seen
 
<italics mine...>

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Anthony:
Five minutes is actually unrealistic for any extant Traveller ship design system if you're making any effort to optimize, though it's adequate for merchant ships and other transports where you can just go 'the rest of the ship is cargo'.
Yep, completely agree.</font>[/QUOTE]Et tu Sigg?

Spoken like a couple of true hawks
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As if commercial ships don't need optimization to make economic sense
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:rolleyes:

If anything a trader needs even more attention paid to optimizing the design, they have to earn their keep, unlike a warship that can excuse almost any budgetary expense in the name of superior firepower and allow budget overruns as an expected matter of course
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You can't just throw engines and fuel in hull and say "the rest of the ship is cargo" and expect the bank to allow the build.

That said, five minutes is a reasonable time for conceiving any design. But very few designs can be finalized in that time frame, even with something as simple as LBB2. I think I've done a few in that time frame with LBB2. It's been more like a half hour (when really into it) and longer (for more complex designs) with the others I've used (HG, MT, FF&S1, T4 (ugh), T20). Of course I don't use spreadsheets, or even a calculator at times, but I do round fractions ruthlessly at times


If there is one thing FF&S3, or whatever it may come to be called, can do without it is detail to litre scale in ships of several hundred Kdtons
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I'm not saying "five minutes" should be enough for every design. I'm also not necessarily including the "stat out" portion of design in that time frame, since I remember that MT can take longer to finish the statblock than it does to stack the components in the hull, and let's just not mention TNE. Heck, Book 2 used the "essay" style statblock, and even one of those can take a while.

If the T5 equivalent of Book 2 allows a user to reach the "and the rest is cargo, for MCr (scribble, scribble) 65.3" in a short enough time that the "drudgery warnings" don't go off, this goal has been met.

If the "appendices" (because my ideal is that this is simply a mask over something approaching FF&S levels) allow the Ref to answer a request for "another 0.1G, even if we have to jettison Bert's vacuum still", then *that* goal has been met.
 
Originally posted by GypsyComet:
If the "appendices" (because my ideal is that this is simply a mask over something approaching FF&S levels) allow the Ref to answer a request for "another 0.1G, even if we have to jettison Bert's vacuum still", then *that* goal has been met.
With the Traveller history of components divided between Fixed dTons (like staterooms) and Percent of ship (like jump fuel), the biggest roadblock to creating a "Simple" overlay to a "Complex" base system are items like the bridge that are part Fixed and part Percent. T5 would benefit from all items being EITHER Fixed OR Percent, but not both.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I agree - in which case MT once again was superior to the other design systems in that the required volume devoted to command and control depended upon the size/cost of every component indexed against the cp rating of it's computer - thus there was no 'Bridge is always a minimum of 20 tons' etc.
 
In the simpler systems, "Bridge" is all of the missing bits, not just C&C. Is it a "squint and it goes away" solution to simplifying design? Certainly. Is it untenable to combine with more detail later? Certainly not.
 
Originally posted by GypsyComet:
In the simpler systems, "Bridge" is all of the missing bits, not just C&C. Is it a "squint and it goes away" solution to simplifying design? Certainly. Is it untenable to combine with more detail later? Certainly not.
I thought the "plus or minus 10 percent" was the CT "squint and it goes away" solution to all of the missing bits.

It is my opinion that the fact that most small ship (100 to 500 dTon) plans use the 20 dTon “Bridge” space for a variety of assorted functions indicates that the 2% rule more accurately reflects the general perception of how large a bridge should be. Why does a 1000 dTon ship require less “landing gear” than a 100 dTon ship if “bridge” includes landing gear as part of the 20 dTons?
 
I've never used arbitrary lower limits IMTU HG designs, they just don't make sense to me. But, when I design for others I use the rules as they stand, to avoid confusion.
 
That I can understand! - Yes most of us accept that the bridge contains all command and control spaces and accessories such as the ship's locker and access to avionics etc - but 20 tons is a hell of a lot of room to take out of a 100 ton ship - why couldn't the 'bridge' be 2 tons - following the 2% rule - after all 2 tons is nice, cramped and cosy enough space for a pilot and co-pilot/navigator etc, and is probably more realistic! If the designer want's a ship's locker why not include it separately - just like computers and avionics are inlcuded separately in all of the design systems out there. Also I have always assumed that components such as Jump Drive and Power Plants contain access volume in their sizes so that crew members can work around them or on them (repairs etc) making the afore mentioned plants and drives smaller than their rule listed size, so the need for access spaces included in the 'bridge' becomes null and void.
 
Originally posted by Commander Drax:
If the designer want's a ship's locker why not include it separately - just like computers and avionics are inlcuded separately in all of the design systems out there. Also I have always assumed that components such as Jump Drive and Power Plants contain access volume in their sizes so that crew members can work around them or on them (repairs etc) making the afore mentioned plants and drives smaller than their rule listed size, so the need for access spaces included in the 'bridge' becomes null and void.
Neither Book 2 nor High Guard have seperate listings for avionics (ie. sensors), airlocks, or life support. The 20 ton "overhead" charge that these books call "the Bridge" is all the little intangibles that a ship requires but which were below the resolution of those systems. MT and later systems upped the resolution, so sensors, commo, life support, etc all became "visible" and seperate while the "Bridge" got smaller.

Many of these subsystems do scale with the ship they are in, but, as with any engineering problem, there is a certain minimum size that all of these things can take up and still function. In CT, that minimum size is, collectively, 20 tons. It's why starships really can't get any smaller, as 100 dTons is the point at which drives, fuel, and quartering minimums collide with that overhead. Any smaller and the systems you give up either become a safety issue, or the result ceases to be a starship.

Re-align your scale perspective to start "real" starships at 1000 dTons, and view the smaller hulls as anomalous due to miniaturization limits, and it does make more sense.

What can make *less* sense is in the other direction. What the heck is a 5000 dTon J1 M1 Freighter going to need 100 dTons of "Bridge" for?
 
Couple of things.

1) I love SFB. Love it. I don't wish it on anyone, but I love the game. Just an incredible game. I don't think there is a board game as rich as SFB. ASL, maybe, but where ASL has detail, I think it lack the depth, balance and timing of SFB. Watching veteran, expert SFB players play is a wonder to behold.

2) Aramis said: "FF&S1/2 is too hard... the error rates alone prove that."

I would like to comment on error rate. Specifically, exactly whom does this error rate hurt? And what kinds of errors are we talking about? Error is important in a competitive game, where an error can give one side or the other and advantage. But in an RPG? I agree its frustrating when the vendor publishes "bad designs" that can't be recreated with the design sequence, but if they're used mostly for the narrative look and feel of the design rather than the hard numbers of the design, then errors aren't really that important. Do we really need to know the intimate details of the ship Serenity?

I mean, look at the classic 200 ton Free Trader. Everyone loves the FT. Why? Because it's a great size ship for a RPG party of friends sitting around a table, and it's a great mechanic to get the players in and out of trouble.

But there have been simply thousands of words discussing the problems with the FT design, some which may actually be a design problem, others may be a trade system problem, etc. Even with a perfect, down to the liter design sequence, the FT is a flawed design if literally plugged in to the OTU as is.

NONETHELESS, it is a staple.

Same with the Scout. Regardless of how "wrong" the scout deckplans are, etc., they are a great game device. The ship LOOKS great, the plans LOOK great, and even work well. Any player looks at a Scout ship hungrily as it just seethes adventure.

When a player is designing a ship, they're really interested in those factors mentioned earlier.

Capacity, free space, operational costs, effect in combat. But if a referee designs a "bad" ship, even with FF&S, odds are it's not that broken. The ship doesn't instantly become munchkin food, as no design sequence can prevent that. The ship is as playable as the ref's and players imagination wants it to be.

I don't know of an FF&S ship that's missing any significant component necessary for play. Why? Because the ref would have noticed it missing and crammed it in the design somplace, somehow. Maybe the price is wrong, or the tonnage is off. In any case, if it was grossly off, then the designer would have probably noticed it and studiously checked his calculations. And if it was marginally off, then odds are it doesn't affect play in any dramatic form.

A basic RPG tenet is simply that no design will leave out anything important to the game, because that's what the design is built around in the first place.

Sure, errors can perhaps frustrate efforts to share a design with others. But most of the time, again, the importance of the design in the idea behind it rather than the cold hard facts and numbers that make it up, in an RPG setting.

Another RPG tenet is that all conflicts are mostly predestined. There's random luck, players get themselves in trouble, but very few referees will let good meaning and well behaved players get destroyed because of a design error, or even a bad dice roll. If a pirate ship is firing to cripple a player ship, then the ship may escape with a lucky die roll, but regardless of the dice roll, that ship isn't going to get destroyed by dumb luck.

"WOW! a lucky shot! Double crit, ship explodes -- you're all dead! Huh. Who'da thought. 100 to 1 that. Oh well, let's go home, we'll roll new characters next time. They were supposed to capture you and take you to their base where you hijack another ship and get away. But, I guess not. Another 2 months down the drain."

That's why GM screens were invented.

So, if you're "playing Traveller to win", then a detailed design sequence is important in order to give folks a breadth of technique and strategies to try and employ. But for RPG designs for RPG sake, it's much less important IMHO.

I still do not understand why a Book 2 system can not come out of and be roughly compatbile with a FF&S system. I look at the weapon socket concept of TNE, and the assorted plug-and-play turrets they had to fit in them and see that extended to drives, plants, and hull sizes. Round off the corners about 10% give or take and, perhaps, stick to a small ship sequence, and I think you can have an easy to use modular system on top of a more detailed system.
 
Originally posted by whartung:
Couple of things.
2) Aramis said: "FF&S1/2 is too hard... the error rates alone prove that."

I would like to comment on error rate. Specifically, exactly whom does this error rate hurt? And what kinds of errors are we talking about?

[...]

A basic RPG tenet is simply that no design will leave out anything important to the game, because that's what the design is built around in the first place.

[...]

I still do not understand why a Book 2 system can not come out of and be roughly compatbile with a FF&S system.
It's that its complexity is beyond the parameters of the game ("why am I consulting this table?"), and beyond my ability to grok all its parts ("why am I consulting this table?").

The reason a Book 2-like system can't come from FFS2 (as it currently stands) is because Book 2 isn't simply a filter on top of detailed rules. Its delicate interlocking parts were designed for the purpose of interlocking delicately. The best you can get from FFS2 right now is a QSDS (perhaps with fewer significant digits) or an MT design system. Which is ok, but it's not Book 2.


In other words, for a Book 2 system to be anything like a Book 2 (rather than High Guard, QSDS, or MT), it has to be designed with specific playability in mind, which then paradoxically informs the detailed design rules.

It's not difficult to do, but the general direction has always been for the detailed design rules to drive simple design, without consideration of what a "simple" system needs.
 
Originally posted by robject:

The reason a Book 2-like system can't come from FFS2 (as it currently stands) is [...]
I could be wrong. Anyone care to try this?

Or, perhaps I should ask, does anyone else feel that QSDS isn't the same as Book 2?


So what is a "Book 2 system"?

What would you consider its defining feature?

Restrictions on all components, slaved to a single tech level, and using only 1.5 significant digits?

I think the defining feature of a Book 2 system is the drive potential table, with its implicit handling of power and implicit TL(s). Though I'm not positive.

The reason I think this is that I believe you could add a lot to the B2 System, and it would still feel like Book 2.

You could potentially add armor rules.

You could potentially expand the hull sizes, and extend the drive tables.

You could potentially add bay weapons (if you could solve the power issue).

You could add sensors, comms, hangar and grapple rules.

You could even potentially add alternate power sources and drives - though that would require somehow addressing the fixed nature of the TL.


One big stumbling block for Book 2 is the TL restriction (the hull size limit is another one, of course). Limiting a design system to one tech level (or one group of implied TLs) is anathema to a general design system. But it might be okay for a simple one.
 
A few things have just occurred to me:

- if people really can't handle a bit of maths or don't need the detail, there's no reason why they can't simply use LBB2 or HG - the results will be *roughly* the same, and good enough *for them*.

- it might be useful to update the CT computer and PP stats, to bring them more in line with FF&S

- if we're assuming that CT "computers" are really computers+commo+sensors, it might also be useful to give FF&S ratings for these
 
Well, to me, (and I must admit I have not looked at the B2 tables in a LONG time), the crux of B2 is the drive table.

The drive table is pretty much the only component of the system that is pretty much entirely tied to the hull size. IIRC, everything else is simply a fixed space. Turrets, staterooms, computers, etc.

The detail of the drive table is that you were able to mount a single drive in to several hulls and get different results.

Now I would think, it's pretty straight forward to build a single maneuver drive that gives different peformance in different hull sizes. This is where we can fudge the numbers a little bit.

It's fairly easy to make Mdrives a fixed size giving a fixed thrust. Then you simply apply that thrust to a range of hull sizes, and come up with a G rating for each hull size.

Power plants are a fixed size and give out a fixed MW. Add up the MW/Energy points for a ships components, and you can pick a PP to fit.

JDrives are percent based, but it's based on the entire ship size and a simple calculation, so no need for tables for JDrives.

If we're fast and loose with our rounding when it comes to things like G ratings, I don't see this being a big problem. Combine that with limited hull sizes and it's all good.

I'm totally comfortable that a Drive that only creates 1.7G for a hull be rounded up to 2G, or a 2.5G drive rounding down.

The guy getting the 2G out of the 1.7G drive may be getting an "advantage" over someone who designs an actual 2G drive for the same hull, but in game terms the ships are probably close to identical anyway.

Why won't this work?
 
Originally posted by whartung:
Well, to me, (and I must admit I have not looked at the B2 tables in a LONG time), the crux of B2 is the drive table.
[...]
Why won't this work?
It would work. With the caveat that the more it looks like HG, the less it looks like Book 2.

NB The goal isn't necessarily to produce a Book 2 Thing for T5. I'm just working through the concept.

So the drive table, sans jump drive and power plant, would only apply to maneuver drives. But, as long as jump is percentage-based, why not use the same method for M-drives, too?

And voila, you have High Guard.

Next, to avoid calculating with percentages for hulls 5000 tons and under, we can pre-calculate drives to a certain size and index them into tables.

And voila, you have QSDS.

So, Book 2 is unstable, or at least elusive.

addendum Even the jump drive in Book 2 is roughly percentage-based, at least for most of the values, though it's tailored to work with the drive table. The formula for the first 20 jump drives is: v = 5 + 2.5% jn. That's significantly higher than the High Guard/T20/MT/FFS/FFS2 percentages.
 
Ok, then this would have to wait until I manage to dig out my Book 2. I'm obviously missing something fundamental that distinghuishes B2 and HG. I mean, I know that the systems are different, I just don't recall what the general difference in workflow is.

I thought the drive table managing the relationships between the drives, hulls, and performance. (I have distant memory of the A, B, and C M drives giving a 100 ton hull 2, 4, and 6 G performance -- but that's as far as it goes).

Did they have a JDrive table?

The biggest problem, IMHO, with volume dependent MDrives and PPlants is simply that I can see it easily drifting away from what FF&S normally requires, since mass doesn't scale 1:1 with volume, nor do power requirements.

If you have fixed plant sizes, and then just rate them based on volume (through a table), you have a better chance of keeping the overall design roughly in sync with the FF&S design.

Because, to me, the whole point is to overall stick with a FF&S detailed design sequence, but simplify it and still create "compatible" designs. So, I think it's important to maintain that relationship that an FF&S design doesn't differe dramatically from a "B2" design given similar parameters.

If you look at the TNE laser turret and socket, those are fleshed out full detail FF&S designs, but they're just a stock component that can be considered a simple laser turret with these game effects, rather than a 100Mj laser with a 1/2 page of design notes.

That's what I want the stock plants and drives to be too, then a table to let the player Lego them together and come up with reasonable ratings when all is said and done.

But if you could give me a paragraph on the B2 workflow and important elements, then maybe I can better adjust my POV.
 
Originally posted by whartung:
I know that the [HG & B2] are different, I just don't recall what the general difference in workflow is.

I thought the drive table managed the relationships between the drives, hulls, and performance. [...]

The biggest problem, IMHO, with volume dependent MDrives and PPlants is simply that I can see it easily drifting away from what FF&S normally requires, since mass doesn't scale 1:1 with volume, nor do power requirements.

[...]

If you look at the TNE laser turret and socket, those are fleshed out full detail FF&S designs, but they're just a stock component that can be considered a simple laser turret with these game effects, rather than a 100Mj laser with a 1/2 page of design notes.

[...]
I think you've got a handle on the concepts better than I, since I lose my way in FFS.

The drive potential table manages jump, maneuver, and power, presumably as a set of standardized modules I suppose.

Perhaps the disconnect is indeed with mass assumptions.


Book 2 and High Guard only disagree between the M-drive and J-drives, I think. Power plants definitely get beat up in the scuffle, but I'm not sure exactly how.

J-drive volume a la HG: 1% + 1% jn.
J-drive volume a la B2: 5t + 2.5% jn.

Strangely enough, B2 drives fit neatly into an interlocking table, while HG drives don't.

M-drive vol a la HG: 3% mn - 1t.
M-drive vol a la B2: 1% mn - 1t.

addendum I'm blatantly ignoring all drives above letter V, due to their plainly nonlinear nature. In fact, they're better than HG drives. That makes me think that throwing away those drives and requiring the use of HG drives at that point is the way to go.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
A few things have just occurred to me:

- if people really can't handle a bit of maths or don't need the detail, there's no reason why they can't simply use LBB2 or HG - the results will be *roughly* the same, and good enough *for them*.

- it might be useful to update the CT computer and PP stats, to bring them more in line with FF&S

- if we're assuming that CT "computers" are really computers+commo+sensors, it might also be useful to give FF&S ratings for these
Andrew's right. That brings in a slippery slope, where T5 Core Rules have a SDS that's incompatible with FFS3, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. But his point is sort of similar to the one I was making: gearhead designs rarely cross paths with simpleton designs.

Computers, if used, will have to be brought into line with FFS2/T4, or whatever FFS3 does.


Moreover:

The 20-ton bridge will probably be whacked. Don't ask me what this does to the X-boat; I don't know.

Mass and surface area will probably be foot-noted in FFS3 (Scott Martin is the one to bug about that); typical drives, including the M-drive, will use volume. (Perhaps with an assumption of X mass tons per Y displacement tons? I don't know.) Surface area may show up -- behind the scenes -- with armor volumes, and perhaps with max hardpoint calculations (there Sigg, you happy?).
 
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