MGT Only: Fighters in Combat

[AnotherDilbert]

Can "Help line up a shot" and dodging be done simultaneously?

I know rules don't talk about it, but "giving the gunner a stable paltfaorm" and dodging seem quite contradictory to me...

Yes, it is no more ridiculous than dodging light-speed attacks.
You can even dodge and dock with another vessel in the same round...

As this is clearly not applicable to HG barrages (that represent many weapons at once), I assumed the HG FC programs were, as their computers, more powerful.

THis gives a clear advantage to fighters, if they divide on small flights...

Yes, this is an advantage for ships with a single weapon, whether turret, bay, or spinal.

True, but quite ill defined.

As an example. are they affected by distance or by target size?

It's well-defined, but not very detailed. It's all there in two paragraphs. No, distance and size doesn't matter.

IMHO single weapons attacks should be handled by CB rules, not by barrage ones.

Using single weapon attacks as barrages makes them far too powerful.

I had to re-read the rules. And then re-read them again. My head hurts.

Unless the Referee force your hand barrages are a choice. There is no lower limit to a barrage except "At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same type* or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted". A ship can only fire a single barrage on each target. You can always choose basic attacks instead.

* I guess?

The damage system to be used depends on the type of firer and target.
If the target is small, we use the basic damage system (unless the damage is larger than hit points; ship destroyed).
If the target is capital the damage system depends on type of firer: small does basic damage, but capital does capital damage.

So the simple damage system in HG is only used when a capital fires a barrage on another capital. In all other cases the basic system in the core book is used, except select systems cannot suffer a third hit on capital.

Hence the fighters are always using the basic damage system on the capital, regardless if they use basic attacks or barrages. And the capital always uses the basic damage system on fighters. Which invalidates nearly all my calculations in this thread (I think the bay damage is correct).

I start to remember why I didn't like the MgT1 ship system...

Edit: Re-read the rules again. The above is probably wrong, depending on the value of "normal". Barrages against capital probably should use the simplified system... Mongoose seems to have a curious aversion to expressing rules clearly.

A two seat fighter with good FM firing against the Planet cruiser as in my first example (as we have the System Damage tables for it) could produce up to about 6 hull/Structure hits plus a System Damage roll, that could mean reducing its armor or destroy 30-40 turrets...

Nope? They would use the basic system, so look in the Damage - Effect table in Core p150 to translate that into Two single hits (and no hull damage). The capital ship will soon find itself without armour and sensors (but at least the sensors will be repaired most rounds).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Let me try again:

The ship fires on a bunch of fighters: We can use barrage or regular attacks, but always use the Core damage system.

I will use "Help line up the shot", but not sensor locks, since quaintly the sensor DM is used to break locks, but not establish locks. Assuming a couple of ECM fighters mixed in, any locks are easily broken.

For fighters we use the 15 Dt reinforced fighter, but with a dual cockpit and 6 + 1 damage points.

No single hit on the damage table on Core p151 will more than inconvenience a fighter, so I will ignore then and go for instant kill by over-damage.

Bays:

A basic attack by a bay will do 9D average 36 (min 27, VHYield) damage. A single fighter is instantly destroyed.
Bays: -2[range] +1[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +1, hit on 7+ (58%), 12 attacks kill on average ~7 fighters.

A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 12 × 9 × 3 × barrage%, killing 12 fighters on 50% or higher.
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -3, killing an average of 6.75 fighters.

Barbettes:

15 basic attacks on a single fighter will do 4D average 16 (min 12) for trivial damage.
Barbettes: -2[range] +0[software] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +2, hitting on 6+ (72%) is ~11 hits causing ~3 Hull hits, fighter survives, but half killed.
A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 30 × 4 × 3 × barrage%.
Barbettes: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -8, effect on a roll of 11+, killing average 0.6 fighters.
3 barrage attacks of 10 weapons on individual fighters will do 10 × 4 × 3 × barrage%, killing the single fighter on 10%.
Barbettes: -2[range] +2[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -7, effect on a roll of 10+, killing average 3 × 0.17 ≈ 0.5 fighters.

The barbettes are not very effective, but the bays reliably kill ~7 fighters per round (~10 fighters at Very Long range). Using all software support (+2 on 8 attacks, +1 on 4 attacks) on the bays we can raise that to ~8 fighters (10.5 VL range) per round.


Fighters (let's assume 60 fighters and 5 ECM fighters to deny the ship sensor locks):

60 basic attacks
Turret: -2[range] +5[software] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +7, auto-hitting, for (3D-15) a ~5% chance of doing 1 hit, for an average of 3 hits, doing ~0.5 armour hits. Eh.
60 barrages
Turret: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -3, effect on 6+, System damage on 11+. Average damage 72 and 5 system hits.
1 barrage as a flight
Turret: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -5, effect on 8+, System damage on 13+. Average damage 27.

Very Long range:
60 barrages
Turret: -0[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -1, effect on 4+, System damage on 9+. Average damage 104 and 17 system hits (around 2-3 armour making next turns attack better).


The ship will kill all fighters in around 9 (VL: 5) rounds regardless of flights or not.
The fighters kill the ship in 4 (3) rounds individually or 11 (4) rounds if grouped into a flight.
So the fighters win individually or lose in a flight.


(This is actually one reason I prefer to start at Distant range; it a slaughter at shorter ranges.)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Let's see what happens with McPerth's proposed rule: No armour dm for meson attacks.

The same ship as before, but with 24 small meson bays:
A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 24 × 5 × 3 × barrage%, killing 24 fighters on 10% or higher. (Note: mesons ignore hull, goes directly for structure)
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +5[dice] -2[config] -4[flight] = +6, average damage 965, killing an average of 965 fighters, limited to 24 fighters by number of mounts.

A little too good?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

From what I remember 40 Dt reinforced fighters should be good.

Something like this:

With reinforcement it has 13 hull + 2 structure = 15 damage points.

Edit: Oops, the barbette cannot be both smaller and have upgrades, it should be 5 Dt. Remove the reinforced structure to compensate, leaving the fighter with 13 + 1 = 14 damage points. Marginal impact...

At MCr 62 it is not very much more expensive than the 15 Dt light fighter, but requires a much bigger, hence more expensive, carrier. Let's say we get 40 medium fighters instead of the 65 light fighters.


Ship, Bays:

A basic attack by a bay will do 9D average 36 (min 27, VHYield) damage. As a rough guess we have at least 90% chance to kill a fighter outright.
8 Bays: -2[range] +2[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +2, hit on 6+ (72%), 8 attacks kill on average ~5.2 fighters.
4 Bays: -2[range] +1[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +1, hit on 7+ (58%), 12 attacks kill on average ~2.1 fighters.

Total 7.3 fighters per round.

A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 12 × 9 × 3 × barrage%, killing 12 fighters on 75% or higher.
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -3, killing an average of 5.8 fighters.

The added robustness does not decrease average kill all that much, the bays do too much damage...


Fighters, barbette:
40 barrages
Barbette: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -2, effect on 5+, System damage on 10+. Average damage 93 and 7 system hits.


The ship kills the fighters in 40 / 7.3 ≈ 5.5 rounds.
The fighters kills the ship in 284 / 93 ≈ 3.1 rounds.

The medium fighters defeat the ship, but are no better than the light fighters.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What happens if we pit the light fighters against the medium fighters?

FL: 15 Dt, turret, 7 damage, MCr 45 + MCr 7 carrier = MCr 52 for comparison.
FM: 40 Dt, barbette, 14 damage, MCr 62 + MCr 18 carrier = MCr 80 for comparison.

Hm, carriers are cheaper than I expected. I used a 5 kDt J-3 hull with docking clamps for an estimated price.

So we get around 1.5 FL for each FM. Let's make it 30 FL vs 20 FM.


FL:
Basic vs single: -2[range] +5[software] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +7, autohit, 28% to achieve 1 hit, so average 8 hits => 2.5 Hull
Barrage vs flight: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -9, effect on 12+, killing 1 FM on a roll of 12 for an average of 0.03 FM / round.
Barrages vs single: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -3, effect on 6+, can't kill outright. Average hits 30 × 1.11 ≈ 33 hits => ~10 Hull and 1 FM damaged not killed.


FM:
Basic vs single: -2[range] +5[software] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +7, autohit, 55% to achieve 1.14 hit, so average 12.5 hits => ~4 Hull
Barrage vs flight: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -8, effect on 11+, killing 3 FL on a roll of 11 for an average of 0.39 FL / round.
Barrages vs single FL: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -2, effect on 5+, kills an FL on 8+, so 8 FL killed. Average hits 20 × 1.64 ≈ 33 hits => ~10 Hull and 1 FM killed. The poor target is really, really dead.
Barrages vs different FLs: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -4, effect on 7+, kills an FL on 10+, so 3 FL killed. Average hits 20 × 0.69 ≈ 14 hits spread over lots of targets, irrelevant.

So, the FLs kills the FMs in ~30 rounds, and the FMs kills the FLs in ~10 rounds. FMs wins decisively.

Again a barrage from each fighter is most effective. If you do not allow that things slow down, but the outcome is the same.


If we decrease the range to Very Long (or increase the skill):
FL:
Barrages vs single: -0[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -1, effect on 4+, kills on 11+. Average hits 30 × 1.61 ≈ 48 hits => ~15 Hull and 1 FM killed.
Spreading out the attack a little they will kill ~2 FMs per round.

FM:
Barrages vs different FLs: -0[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -2, effect on 5+, kills an FL on 8+, so 8 FL killed. Average hits 20 × 1.67 ≈ 33 hits spread over lots of targets, irrelevant.

So, the FLs kills the FMs in ~10 rounds, and the FMs kills the FLs in ~4 rounds. FMs wins decisively.


The barbettes with a +5 Fire Control behind each barbette are rather effective.

 

[McPerth]

Let's see what happens with McPerth's proposed rule: No armour dm for meson attacks.

The same ship as before, but with 24 small meson bays:
A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 24 × 5 × 3 × barrage%, killing 24 fighters on 10% or higher. (Note: mesons ignore hull, goes directly for structure)
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +5[dice] -2[config] -4[flight] = +6, average damage 965, killing an average of 965 fighters, limited to 24 fighters by number of mounts.

A little too good?

Another comment (I've just realized it): we all are assuming that the numbre of dice per weapon is added to the DM for barrage fire, but I don't find it anywhere now, and in the example in pages 74-75 (the missile salvo vs the Victory) it is not applied. Can you please remember me where is it told about

I still think to remember having read somewhere that it is used as a reduction to armour, not as truy DM, but I cannot find now anything about its use.

See that if this is the case, your meson bays barrage would not add it, s thre is no armour modifier, so the final modifier would be +1, making it quite less deadly...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Another comment (I've just realized it): we all are assuming that the numbre of dice per weapon is added to the DM for barrage fire, but I don't find it anywhere now, and in the example in pages 74-75 (the missile salvo vs the Victory) it is not applied. Can you please remember me where is it told about

p74:

Barrages & Defences
Barrage attacks interact with defences slightly differently to normal attacks. Instead of reducing the damage directly, defences such as armour or sand provide a DM to the attack roll. Add up the protection offered by the defences, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM.

 

[McPerth]

p74:

Barrages & Defences
Barrage attacks interact with defences slightly differently to normal attacks. Instead of reducing the damage directly, defences such as armour or sand provide a DM to the attack roll. Add up the protection offered by the defences, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM.

TY, I was sure it was there.

Then, the mesons would not add their dice to the roll, as the defenses modifier is 2 (config), so overcame by the dice, but (again as I understand it) no more DM is applied for them, as neigher dodging nor the DM against fighter flights are in Defenses, but different DMs.

If so, final modifier for the mesons would be +3...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Then, the mesons would not add their dice to the roll, as the defenses modifier is 2 (config), so overcame by the dice, but (again as I understand it) no more DM is applied for them, as neigher dodging nor the DM against fighter flights are in Defenses, but different DMs.

?

Add up the protection offered by the defences, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM.

So the final DM is + ( Dice - Defences ), whether negative or positive. There is no maximum on this DM.

 

[McPerth]

You're right, and the fact there is no mention may be seen as you say, or it may be interpreted that the fact it dosn't espcify "even if negative" means it cannot be.

The explanation it gives for it in page 73:

The damage from each individual weapon must still be noted, though, as armour is obviously much more effective against smaller weapons than larger ones.

makes me thing the second option, the dice are only used to overcome the defenses, not as additional modifiers. The effect of more dice in unarmored targets is given by the fact it is also a multiplier.

I must accept though that both interpretations may be right.

And I guess we found another errata in the fact this is not applied in the example...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

makes me thing the second option, the dice are only used to overcome the defenses, not as additional modifiers.

I see no support for this in the text.

Note that e.g. the defence DM from Sand cannot be negative and that is clearly stated.

Roll 1d6 for the amount of protection offered by a sand cloud, modified as below. If the modified dice roll is zero or less, the sand protection modifier is zero.

It would be weird if armour had no effect, e.g. we fire a particle barbette against an unarmoured target DM = 4 - 0 = 0, or we fire the same barbette against a target with armour 4 DM = 4 - 4 = 0. But the fifth point of armour would suddenly have an effect and result in DM -1?

 

[McPerth]

I see no support for this in the text.

Note that e.g. the defence DM from Sand cannot be negative and that is clearly stated.



It would be weird if armour had no effect, e.g. we fire a particle barbette against an unarmoured target DM = 4 - 0 = 0, or we fire the same barbette against a target with armour 4 DM = 4 - 4 = 0. But the fifth point of armour would suddenly have an effect and result in DM -1?

As I understand it, yes, the dice nullify the armor (or part of it), but their effect in damage is only as multiplier.

As I understand it, this is consistent with the explanation it gives about armor being more effective against smaller weapons than larger ones.

If the intent was what you say, I guess they would just added them as another DM (as FC or skill) for the shake of simplicity.

 

[McPerth]

A TL 12 light meson spinal (class A) is penetration I and delivers 220 points of damage, while uses 4000 dtons.

Half this tonnage used in meson bays would be 20 x 100 ton bays or 40 x 50 ton bays.

Firing(with the same modifiers we have been using, so FC+4 (as FC5 is TL 13) and skill level 3, against a standard config ship without meson screens and over 10000 tons at Very Long range. As it's only +1 TL above mínimum, let's asume the bays are High Yeld. Let's see the comparative:

Spinal: Modifiers to hit: -6 (formidable) -2 Dodge 0 (distance) +4 FC and +3 skill, so it hits on a 9+. Then, as class I meson on a standard ship with 0 screen points, it penetrates on a 4+, delivering 220 damage points and 4 system damage if successful in both cases.

Assuming the firing ship is itself standard too, so battery bearing is 80%:

32 x 50 ton bays: -2 (range) -2 (dodge) -2 (config) +4 (FC) +3 (skill) +1 (HY) +5 (dice), for a total of +7. Mínimum damage is 125% (200 DP), average (on a roll of 7) is 275% (440 dp) and on a 10+ it delivers 500% (800 DP). One system damage automatic.

16 x 100 dton bays: -2 (range) -2 (dodge) -2 (config) +4 (FC) +3 (skill) +1 (HY) +8 (dice), for a total of +10. Mínimum damage is 225% (288 DP), average (on a roll of 7) is 500% (640 dp) (640 DP). One system damage is automatic.

The spinal also needs to burn 2 initiative points to line it. So, who would mount spinals ,if they are quite less effective?

See that if not ounting the dice (as there are no defenses), the bays fire would be:

32 x 50 ton bays: -2 (range) -2 (dodge) -2 (config) +4 (FC) +3 (skill) +1 (HY), for a total of +2. Mínimum damage is 25% (40 DP), average (on a roll of 7) is 150% (240 dp) and on a 12 it delivers 275% (440 DP). One system damage is delivered on a 7+.

16 x 100 dton bays: -2 (range) -2 (dodge) -2 (config) +4 (FC) +3 (skill) +1 (HY), for a total of +2. Mínimum damage is 25% (32 DP), average (on a roll of 7) is 150% (192 dp) and on a 12 it delivers 275% (352 DP). One system damage is delivered on a 7+.

Mesons have some more sense...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As I understand it, this is consistent with the explanation it gives about armor being more effective against smaller weapons than larger ones.

Let's fire a barrage of 100 dice against a ship with armour 4, either as barbettes (4 dice) or bays (9 dice)

Bays: -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -4[armour] = +8, average barrage% 345%, damage 345.

Barbettes: -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +4[dice] -4[armour] = +3, average barrage% 175%, damage 175.

Hence armour is more effective against smaller weapons, as specified.


If weapons dice can only counteract armour:

Bays: -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +MIN( 0 , +9[dice] -4[armour] ) = +3, average barrage% 175%, damage 175.

Barbettes: -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +MIN( 0 , +4[dice] -4[armour] ) = +3, average barrage% 175%, damage 175.

Hence armour just as effective, or not, against small weapons as against bigger weapons, contrary to specification.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The spinal also needs to burn 2 initiative points to line it. So, who would mount spinals ,if they are quite less effective?

If we try a warship as a target with reasonable defences:

Spinal: -6[formidable] -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill], so it hits on a 11+(8%). (Spinals use the same range mods as other weapons.)
Penetrate 1 screen at 6+(72%).
Average damage 8% × 72% × 220 ≈ 13 damage and 0.23 System..

16 x large bays: -2[range] +4[software] +1[HYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +8[dice] -12[armour] -2[config] -2[screen] = -4, average % 26%, damage 16 × 8 × 26% ≈ 33 damage and 0.02 System.



Neither can compete with the particle bay (available at TL8 so full tech advantages):
16 x large bays: -0[range] +4[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -12[armour] = +4, average % 202%, damage 16 × 9 × 202% ≈ 290 damage and 0.92 System.


So, yes spinals are rather useless, and so are meson barrages.


If you just remove armour from the meson barrages:
16 x large bays: -2[range] +4[software] +1[HYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +8[dice] -2[config] -2[screen] = +8, average % 345%, damage 16 × 8 × 345% ≈ 442 damage and 1.00 System.
That is a little too good...


So, you try to compensate removing positive dm from dice:
16 x large bays: -2[range] +4[software] +1[HYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +MIN( 0, +8[dice] -2[config] -2[screen] ) = +4, average % 202%, damage 16 × 8 × 202% ≈ 258 damage and 0.92 System.
OK, this is better but leads to weird effects, such as the screens having no effect whatsoever.
But since mesons ignore hull and only do structure damage, meson bays are now almost twice as good as particle bays.


At TL15 we are back to (Long Range, VHYield):
16 x large bays: -0[range] +5[software] +2[HYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +MIN( 0, +8[dice] -2[config] -12[screen] ) = +2, average % 150%, damage 16 × 8 × 150% ≈ 192 damage and 0.72 System.


Compared to particle:
16 x large bays: -0[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -15[armour] = +2, average % 150%, damage 16 × 9 × 150% ≈ 216 damage and 0.72 System.
Mesons are still almost twice as good as any other weapon.


But this is just trying to put lipstick on the pig that the barrage system is.


A simpler system would be to use the basic core book system, and roll one to-hit and one damage roll and multiply by the number of firing weapons.

 

[McPerth]

Now let's try to apply to fighters, assuming the mesons ignore armor but dice only compensate for defenses:

16 x large bays: -2[range] +4[software] +1[HYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +MIN( 0, +8[dice] -2[config]) -4 fighters = 0, they do damage on a 3+, 100% on a 7 and 225% on a 12

As the base damage is 128, even with a roll of 3 (10%) they would do 12 hits. As it is against small crafts, this is multiplied to 36, and, as they skip hull and go directly to structure, even with this tiny roll they will kill 16 of your reinforced fighters (the maximum allowed by weapon mounts).

See that the 50 bay mesons will have the same modifiers, as their dice also compensate for the defenses (that are limited to config in this case), and their base damage (as they are 32 firing bays) is even higher (32 X 5=160, so with the roll of 3 they'd do 16 X 3 =48 structure hits, killing 32 of your reinforced fighters per salvo (except on eyes).

Now compare it with firing the weapons individually, where they need a 8+ and modifiers are -2 (range) -2 (dodge) +3 skill and none for FC (as it must be too Split), so they need a 9+ to hit, with each hit representing a killed fighter again (as even 5d for the 50 ton bays, against no armor and ignoring hull is a kill).

So even without the dice modifier (used only to compensate defenses), the meson bays are the best defense against armored and/or reinforced fighters (assuming again they are not affected by armor, as I keep believeing that must be an errata).

 

[McPerth]

Let's fire a barrage of 100 dice against a ship with armour 4, either as barbettes (4 dice) or bays (9 dice)

Bays: -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -4[armour] = +8, average barrage% 345%, damage 345.

Barbettes: -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +4[dice] -4[armour] = +3, average barrage% 175%, damage 175.

Hence armour is more effective against smaller weapons, as specified.


If weapons dice can only counteract armour:

Bays: -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +MIN( 0 , +9[dice] -4[armour] ) = +3, average barrage% 175%, damage 175.

Barbettes: -2[range] +4[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +MIN( 0 , +4[dice] -4[armour] ) = +3, average barrage% 175%, damage 175.

Hence armour just as effective, or not, against small weapons as against bigger weapons, contrary to specification.

This is true only against light armor, as if the armor is heavier (let's say 8), the difference is substantial, as the barbetes will fire at -1 and the bays at +3, meaning not only more hits, but quite more likely to produce System Damage.

So, as told in the rules, armor is more effective against smaller weapons...

I keep thinking that if the dice should apply always, even if they give a positive modifier once defenses have been overcame, they would have been added as an attacker DM, not as a neutralization of the defenses, but I cannot be sure about it, as I guess both ways of reading it have their points.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So even without the dice modifier (used only to compensate defenses), the meson bays are the best defense against armored and/or reinforced fighters (assuming again they are not affected by armor, as I keep believeing that must be an errata).

Yes, you have made Meson bays the invincible super-weapon, it's now better than every other weapon against all types of targets.

High Guard has an errata, and TCS went over this, and nowhere is this mentioned. These rules are not errata, they are house-rules.

 

[McPerth]

High Guard has an errata, and TCS went over this, and nowhere is this mentioned. These rules are not errata, they are house-rules.

The fact is not in the errata might mean they really intended this or that they have not yet detected it as such (remember even now there are appearing CT or MT errata, decades after they were "closed"). In this latter case, you're right, they would be at most house rules.

In any case i'd find quite incosistent that the mesons were affected by armor, as they are not in any Traveller version I know about (incluiding MgT in CB or for Spinals in HG).

Only the writers could answer this question, but I'm afraid this is unlikely, as they are centered in MgT2E...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In any case i'd find quite incosistent that the mesons were affected by armor, as they are not in any Traveller version I know about (incluiding MgT in CB or for Spinals in HG).

At a wild guess they failed to make the barrage system work without armour protecting against mesons.

Without armour mesons are way too good, with armour (and screens etc) the mesons are not good enough.

That bays are the primary defence against fighters is another fail for the barrage system...