Sounds like a Striker mission to me.
Financing and repossession
- Thread starter Carlobrand
- Start date
Sounds like a Striker mission to me.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Here is a post I did sometime back on starship payments, skipping and defaults IMTU.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=10751
Banks loan money with the expectation of getting paid...
One way to reduce a bank's risk (and the borrower's interest rate) is to show creditworthiness. Of course, adventurers can seldom do this, being shady characters.
The other way to reduce the bank's risk is to provide collateral....
This gives the bank the right to seize the ship if the debtor defaults. It also means that the ship cannot be sold or transferred without the bank's permission. ... If you sell the ship to someone anyway, the bank can take the ship from *them* and they can sue you for fraud.
As a practical matter, no one will buy such a ship because the owner lacks the Title....
...
Since collateral is so important to banks, they are very concerned about it being misappropriated. A borrower can theoretically stop making payments, then abscond with the ship and the bank is in trouble. The primary way that the banks protect themselves is by fitting a "Finance Transponder" ("FT") to the ship. This transponder is similar to the normal imperial transponder in sophistication and tamper resistance. It contains your loan balance, payment history and when the next payment is due. When you make a bank payment, the bank transmits an encrypted update to the FT. Codes change monthly and and are loaded with the update. Normally, the FT broadcasts nothing.
But one week after a payment is overdue, the FT starts to continuously broadcast a "Default Alert" ("DA"). The DA can only be cancelled by the bank, an affiliated bank or an Imperial Reserve Bank. Usually, they'll require you to pay the past due amount, plus fees. Low tech banks cannot transmit an update, but will give you a receipt that will keep you out of trouble until you can get to a modern bank and get it updated.
If your ship is broadcasting a *valid* DA, Imperial law allows any registered salvage agent (which includes skip tracers) to take custody of the ship, using any peaceable means. It also requires the local authorities to seize the ship if requested by a salvage agent, or if they notice the DA. Assuming that the owner really has defaulted, the law requires the bank to pay a "salvage fee" of the greater of 0.1% of the note balance or cr50,000. The salvager is due this fee even if he only reports the ship to the authorities, but only if *someone* takes the ship into custody. The salvage fee is added to the past due amount. Only one salvage agent can collect the fee. First come, first served is the rule.
This means that most high traffic systems have a few "salvage agents" roaming the starport looking for defaulters and an easy 50K. (Salvage agents present on 12+ +6 if starport A, +4 if starport B, +3 if starport C; roll each day. They'll notice you on a 7+ each day in system).
If your ship is seized, you have several options:
1. Produce valid receipts proving that the DA is being erroneously broadcast. Forged receipts are *very* hard to produce (11+ roll, DM + Forgery skill). The documents will be shipped to the nearest bank for authentication. If they are discovered to be forgeries, you have committed a 2nd degree felony, punishable by 5-10 years and a fine not to exceed cr50,000. The local authorities *may* require you to bond the ship until the documents are verified (15+ to require bond, DM + Law Level, DM -1 per cr2000 spent on a lawyer, max -5). See below for bonding.
2. Work a deal out with the bank. If the bank has a branch on this world, go talk to the bank manager. He has the authority to temporarily shut off the DA for up to 1 month. He may even be bribable... Or maybe you can perform a service for him or the bank. Managers of affiliates or Imperial Reserve Banks are a bit more reluctant.
3. Make a payment for the entire past due amount, plus late fees, collection expenses (including "salvage fees"), etc. The portmaster can take the money, but a bank is better. The portmaster can only give you a receipt; he can't deactivate the DA like a bank can. An affiliate or Imperial Reserve Bank can also take the money and can deactivate the DA. If you pay within 24 hours of landing (or orbital docking), any salvage fees are reduced to cr5,000.
4. Bond the Ship. If you need time to clear up some problems, yet can't let the ship sit idle, you can "Bond the Ship." By law, banks must allow you to use the ship for any length of time if you can post a bond equal the lesser of (a) the remaining balance on your loan, or (b) the fair market value of your ship. All you have to do is give the bank or portmaster the money. Oh, you don't have a spare mcr15 lying around? In that case, you'll have to convince a bonding company to bond you. The bonding company basically agrees to pay the bank off if you abscond with the ship. Then you owe the bonding company. In such a case, the bonding company gets the bank's rights to your starship as collateral. A bond will cost a minimum of 0.1% of the loan balance for each month of the bond, for up to three months. The entire bond payment is due *up front*. At the end of the bonding period, you have to return with the ship and either turn it over to the bank or work out a new deal. The 0.1% you paid is the bonding company's fee. If you skip out with the ship, the bonding company will pay the bank off. But now you now have an angry bonding company after you. (You've also committed another 2nd degree felony). By the time the bonding company adds its fees, you'll wind up owing twice as much as you did to the bank. And bonding companies use more...uh, imaginative recovery methods.
5. Let the bank have the ship. The bank will auction the ship and its contents within the next 2 months for (50%+(2d6 x 5%)) of fair market value. From the proceeds of the sale, the bank deducts the loan balance, plus 10% for a default fee. Any remaining money will be paid to you. You can bid on your own ship or contents. If there's not enough to pay the bank off, you personally owe the bank the remainder. Note that unscrupulous bank managers will often rig the auction so that the ship goes for a very low price -- 60% or even less. A buddy buys the ship, then they re-sell it for a tidy profit. You get the shaft, of course. If you still owe the bank, the bank may be able to have the authorities seize your other assets (throw 13+, DM + Law Level). Or you can work out a deal. If you can convince the bank that you have few assets the bank can reach, the bank will usually settle the debt for a single payment of less than what's owed. Settlement amount: 15% + 2D x 5%, DM -5% per level of Admin or Carousing. Remember that defaulting on a loan is not generally a crime. Absconding with the collateral or procuring a loan through fraud is a crime.
...
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=10751
Banks loan money with the expectation of getting paid...
One way to reduce a bank's risk (and the borrower's interest rate) is to show creditworthiness. Of course, adventurers can seldom do this, being shady characters.
The other way to reduce the bank's risk is to provide collateral....
This gives the bank the right to seize the ship if the debtor defaults. It also means that the ship cannot be sold or transferred without the bank's permission. ... If you sell the ship to someone anyway, the bank can take the ship from *them* and they can sue you for fraud.
As a practical matter, no one will buy such a ship because the owner lacks the Title....
...
Since collateral is so important to banks, they are very concerned about it being misappropriated. A borrower can theoretically stop making payments, then abscond with the ship and the bank is in trouble. The primary way that the banks protect themselves is by fitting a "Finance Transponder" ("FT") to the ship. This transponder is similar to the normal imperial transponder in sophistication and tamper resistance. It contains your loan balance, payment history and when the next payment is due. When you make a bank payment, the bank transmits an encrypted update to the FT. Codes change monthly and and are loaded with the update. Normally, the FT broadcasts nothing.
But one week after a payment is overdue, the FT starts to continuously broadcast a "Default Alert" ("DA"). The DA can only be cancelled by the bank, an affiliated bank or an Imperial Reserve Bank. Usually, they'll require you to pay the past due amount, plus fees. Low tech banks cannot transmit an update, but will give you a receipt that will keep you out of trouble until you can get to a modern bank and get it updated.
If your ship is broadcasting a *valid* DA, Imperial law allows any registered salvage agent (which includes skip tracers) to take custody of the ship, using any peaceable means. It also requires the local authorities to seize the ship if requested by a salvage agent, or if they notice the DA. Assuming that the owner really has defaulted, the law requires the bank to pay a "salvage fee" of the greater of 0.1% of the note balance or cr50,000. The salvager is due this fee even if he only reports the ship to the authorities, but only if *someone* takes the ship into custody. The salvage fee is added to the past due amount. Only one salvage agent can collect the fee. First come, first served is the rule.
This means that most high traffic systems have a few "salvage agents" roaming the starport looking for defaulters and an easy 50K. (Salvage agents present on 12+ +6 if starport A, +4 if starport B, +3 if starport C; roll each day. They'll notice you on a 7+ each day in system).
If your ship is seized, you have several options:
1. Produce valid receipts proving that the DA is being erroneously broadcast. Forged receipts are *very* hard to produce (11+ roll, DM + Forgery skill). The documents will be shipped to the nearest bank for authentication. If they are discovered to be forgeries, you have committed a 2nd degree felony, punishable by 5-10 years and a fine not to exceed cr50,000. The local authorities *may* require you to bond the ship until the documents are verified (15+ to require bond, DM + Law Level, DM -1 per cr2000 spent on a lawyer, max -5). See below for bonding.
2. Work a deal out with the bank. If the bank has a branch on this world, go talk to the bank manager. He has the authority to temporarily shut off the DA for up to 1 month. He may even be bribable... Or maybe you can perform a service for him or the bank. Managers of affiliates or Imperial Reserve Banks are a bit more reluctant.
3. Make a payment for the entire past due amount, plus late fees, collection expenses (including "salvage fees"), etc. The portmaster can take the money, but a bank is better. The portmaster can only give you a receipt; he can't deactivate the DA like a bank can. An affiliate or Imperial Reserve Bank can also take the money and can deactivate the DA. If you pay within 24 hours of landing (or orbital docking), any salvage fees are reduced to cr5,000.
4. Bond the Ship. If you need time to clear up some problems, yet can't let the ship sit idle, you can "Bond the Ship." By law, banks must allow you to use the ship for any length of time if you can post a bond equal the lesser of (a) the remaining balance on your loan, or (b) the fair market value of your ship. All you have to do is give the bank or portmaster the money. Oh, you don't have a spare mcr15 lying around? In that case, you'll have to convince a bonding company to bond you. The bonding company basically agrees to pay the bank off if you abscond with the ship. Then you owe the bonding company. In such a case, the bonding company gets the bank's rights to your starship as collateral. A bond will cost a minimum of 0.1% of the loan balance for each month of the bond, for up to three months. The entire bond payment is due *up front*. At the end of the bonding period, you have to return with the ship and either turn it over to the bank or work out a new deal. The 0.1% you paid is the bonding company's fee. If you skip out with the ship, the bonding company will pay the bank off. But now you now have an angry bonding company after you. (You've also committed another 2nd degree felony). By the time the bonding company adds its fees, you'll wind up owing twice as much as you did to the bank. And bonding companies use more...uh, imaginative recovery methods.
5. Let the bank have the ship. The bank will auction the ship and its contents within the next 2 months for (50%+(2d6 x 5%)) of fair market value. From the proceeds of the sale, the bank deducts the loan balance, plus 10% for a default fee. Any remaining money will be paid to you. You can bid on your own ship or contents. If there's not enough to pay the bank off, you personally owe the bank the remainder. Note that unscrupulous bank managers will often rig the auction so that the ship goes for a very low price -- 60% or even less. A buddy buys the ship, then they re-sell it for a tidy profit. You get the shaft, of course. If you still owe the bank, the bank may be able to have the authorities seize your other assets (throw 13+, DM + Law Level). Or you can work out a deal. If you can convince the bank that you have few assets the bank can reach, the bank will usually settle the debt for a single payment of less than what's owed. Settlement amount: 15% + 2D x 5%, DM -5% per level of Admin or Carousing. Remember that defaulting on a loan is not generally a crime. Absconding with the collateral or procuring a loan through fraud is a crime.
...
One snip of the cutters to the wires going to the antenna and no broadcast...
Bu bye
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
The link to the original post will get you a more thorough explanation, but here's the response:
***
So...can you remove the FT?
Yes, but removing the FT is a felony (and won't do you any good in any case). It also causes the standard Imperial transponder to broadcast that the FT has been removed. Legally, that creates a presumption that the borrower has completely defaulted. The result is just like a DA being broadcast, except that now, the entire note balance is due. If the FT was unintentionally destroyed or damaged (a meteor strike, a laser hit), then the problem will be sorted out and no default occurs. Still, it can take time. Damaged ships often radio the starport that they've suffered FT damage to avoid this trouble. It *will* be investigated by the portmaster, however.
Some may wonder why the FT isn't just integrated with the standard Imperial transponder. The answer lies in ancient and obtuse Villani banking laws that are still part of the Lex Mercatoria (the Imperial Commerce Code).
Banks and bonding companies also use "skip tracers", individuals who specialize in recovering collateral. That's another topic entirely.
Oh, I forgot one other thing.
Long ago, FTs were designed to disable the jump drive upon default. Safety interlocks prevented disability in jump space (a Bad Thing). Despite such precautions, a defective FT caused the tragic loss of the Pecunious Magnus, a 10,000 luxury yacht that was ironically transporting members of the upper management of several major banks. 600 lives were lost. The FT shut the jump drive down while the ship was in jump space and the catastrophic re-entry into normal space vaporized the ship. Oddly, the FT was one of the few components that survived the explosion. Telemetry indicated that the safety interlocks also failed for some reason. And the ship's owners weren't even in default...
Given the general public hostility to banks, a huge amount of bad press was generated as every starship hyperspace accident was blamed on the banks. And to be fair, it seems that a disproportionate percentage of the owners of lost starships *had* defaulted.
As a result, the banks quickly supported a new Imperial law prohibiting any interference with starship operations by the FT.
Despite this, most spacers have a friend who has a friend whose FT sounded an alarm every two hours after default and cheerfully broadcast "the owners of this ship are worthless deadbeats" over the ship's public address system...
You simply disable the output to the antenna from the Banks transponder. I didn't say remove it. The regular transponder doesn't know since the bank transponder NORMALLY should not be broadcasting anyway. Of course it's a felony but, you'd do this to skip. An even bigger felony.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
You simply disable the output to the antenna from the Banks transponder. I didn't say remove it. The regular transponder doesn't know since the bank transponder NORMALLY should not be broadcasting anyway. Of course it's a felony but, you'd do this to skip. An even bigger felony.
I'm pretty sure that the FT and standard transponders would be designed to detect such simple workarounds. After all trillions of credits in starship loans are secured by this system.
For instance, the FT might well send a periodic "all's well; nothing to report" signal to the standard transponder. If that signal fails to be sent, then the standard transponder assumes that the FT is removed.
Or, the FT might be physically connected to the standard transponder and transmit through the standard transponder.
I don't know. I can only go by what you describe. Detail exactly how it works and THEN I'll take a crack at it. Otherwise, it is just a matter of me pointing out a hole and you saying, "it doesn't work like that."
So, let me know when you are done spec'ing the system...
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
This is a role playing game of the future so lots of people have had thousands of years hacking these things and lots of other people have spent just as long updating the devices to prevent the hacks.
No reason to detail it. That just gives folks a chance to find the bugs in your design. I doubt the manufacturer will make the details public and the first time there is even a hint that someone knows how it all works the device would be recalled and modified or replaced. Is anything 100% secure - no. That's not what I'm saying. If necessary in your game, come up with the details for the rolls and requirements for finding someone capable of defeating such a device and for successfully bypassing/defeating/cloning or whatevering it. Be open minded to options like bribes, cons, and so on. It may be that certain ways of getting around the issue will have to be repeated and rolls attempted again at certain intervals, like at least each time you enter a different system.
Personally, this is something that I as the GM would roll for and not the player. I will let them know if they think what they did worked or not and I will know if it actually did. :devil:
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tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Uh...no.
The purported "holes" you claim to have identified are based on several critical assumptions that were not stated in my description. So I'm struggling to figure out why I'd engage in such a pointless exercise with you. Am I missing something?
I gotta agree with HG on this: you're moving the goal posts.
You postulated a system that is silent when you are up to date with payments and that broadcasts when you are in arrears. He proposed simply disabling the system; ergo, the system remains silent and you appear to be up to date. His proposal is based squarely on your stated description. You respond with additional details to counter the hole he's identified, he points out what you're doing, and you say the hole he found is not in your description. Well, it may not have been in the link, but the hole is clearly there in your opening post.
No system is foolproof. It is simply a matter of requiring more ingenuity, skill, and/or tech to defeat it - at which point the designer will apply ingenuity, skill, and/or tech to counter the method used to defeat it - at which point the criminal will apply ingenuity, skill and/or tech to counter the counter or to exploit a new hole - and so forth, and so forth. It is an age-old "arms race" between the powers of law and the criminal element, and far future technology will change only the details.
I agree with Cosmic that providing details is probably a bad idea. Metaphorically speaking, if you start talking about tumblers, someone is inevitably going to start talking about lockpicks. I could as easily point out that a bank official could be bribed or blackmailed to transmit a false update; that a criminal syndicate could acquire details of the transmission code (you'd be surprised what you can learn if you threaten to kill someone's loved ones) and develop methods to feed false updates to the transponders themselves, and then sell those on the black market; that a criminal syndicate could acquire details of the transponder mechanism and build forged transponders to replace the real ones;and so forth, and so forth, and so forth.
Better to simply state that the ship has such a transponder without describing details of its function beyond the fact that it receives encoded updates and can be "quizzed" remotely by an inspector to check the ship's status and the unit's functional state, that it requires rather sophisticated and specialized tools and considerable skill to defeat, and then let the player make an adventure of it if he chooses to use his streetwise and wealth to track down the skills, tools, and/or criminal specialists needed to defeat the system. The system will be defeated - if by no other method, then by directly attacking the human element responsible for it.
The question for the gamemaster is: just how difficult and expensive will it be for the player to duplicate or buy the means that organized crime and/or foreign powers develop to accomplish that task, should the players decide to pursue that option - keeping in mind that a criminal syndicate or foreign power is going to be walking a fine line, trying to beat the system while not being so successful at it and so well-known for it that Imperial authorities decide to invest more resources in infiltrating and destroying them.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
What "goalposts" are you talking about? The language you quoted is from an obviously INFORMAL discussion of a NONEXISTENT system. There are no goalposts to move. Nor am I interested in a debate about the deep technical details of a fictional system postulated for an RPG. The FT seems to me to be a reasonable extrapolation from the technology that enables the standard starship transponder. YMMV.
So...if you find the FT idea implausible, THEN DON'T USE IT.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Agreed. But widespread long-term financing of very expensive starships at very low interest rates implies that successful skipping is very difficult. The FT seemed to me to be a plausible way to create that condition.
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As a separate box, it's a problem. If it's a normal component part of the core transponder, it's workable.
The only way it can work, IMO, however, is the "every ping" model.
So, when set to squawk, the transponder probably sends a data packet. IMTU, that's
Squawk Code Number (Manually set)
Ship name
Ship registration port
Ship registered owner
Ship model
Date of last payment
Location of last payment
date of last update
port of last update
Payment number of last payment
Total payments due.
verification encrypted checksum on all but squawk.
Ship name
Ship registration port
Ship registered owner
Ship model
Date of last payment
Location of last payment
date of last update
port of last update
Payment number of last payment
Total payments due.
verification encrypted checksum on all but squawk.
Note that there are two ping query freqs... one for short (squawk, name, model) and another for full.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
The ones you move when a hole is pointed out of course.
Uh huh.
Since these purported "holes" are based on assumed facts that are not in evidence, you might consider being being a little less strident... Just a thought.
I also welcome any alternative explanations for how Traveller banks protect their collateral. Remember that Traveller postulates very long term (40 year), multi-million credit loans at very low interest rates. This can only work if skipping is VERY hard. So please give us a better solution than the FT.
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CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
Not saying this is any better, but this is what I have in MTU document in regards to limiting lending risks due to piracy and some apply to skipping.
Security
Just a few of the things, IMTU, that help limit piracy of ships.
1) Transponders. I don't know what cannon has to say about this, but IMTU, they are not very easy to disable or imitate. NOTE: You can not 'hack' the transponder like hacking software; it is mostly hard wired and would require gaining physical access. These devices are purposely built into hard to get to locations of a ship that generally require some key ships systems to be shut down and disassembled to access.
2) Mortgage companies. A ship is quite an investment. The computer, transponder, and other key systems are designed such that they need codes entered at certain intervals or else there are consequences. These codes are provided at the time payments are made.
3) More codes. Just like the mortgage company codes, most ships are configured such that captains and crew can set there own codes for key systems. This is for limiting access to only authorized persons and also it can cause something to happen when a code is not entered within a certain interval. This helps reduce hyjacking, sabotage, and pirating.
4) Secret modifications can be added to ships. Some more technical folk even add their own unique features in both hardware and software. Hidden shut off valves. Remote activated self destruct to burn out a circuit board, and anything anyone might imagine.
While we are at it, I kinda have my doubts about the ability of a low-tech bank that lacks the ability to update the transponder, then having the ability to create a forgery-proof receipt instead. If there is so much of a tech gap that they can't update the transponder, I think that any document they could create would probably able to be forged or altered by higher-tech methods.
I also don't like solutions that require some component on shipboard with a fiat-stated "You can't hack/remove/fix that." We are talking about spacers who usually have the skills to repair, replace, or even rebuild (given proper tools and materials) most parts of their ship; they need these skills to survive when travelling to low tech or uninhabited systems where a breakdown may happen with no spaceyard available.
I tend to lean more toward having such key components (transponders or various sorts, primarily) inspected for tampering when checking in at civilized starports or whenever the ship is otherwise subject to official inspection. If you have a tampered/hacked transponder, they will very likely spot it. If you have gone to the trouble of actually switching a hacked unit for the one that is supposed to be there, that is harder to detect but still possible as there should be tamper-evident signs that are difficult to mimic.
It should be very difficult to thwart these systems, but not impossible with enough effort and skill. Otherwise it just smell like a GM saying, "You can't do that, cuz I said so."
I tend to lean more toward having such key components (transponders or various sorts, primarily) inspected for tampering when checking in at civilized starports or whenever the ship is otherwise subject to official inspection. If you have a tampered/hacked transponder, they will very likely spot it. If you have gone to the trouble of actually switching a hacked unit for the one that is supposed to be there, that is harder to detect but still possible as there should be tamper-evident signs that are difficult to mimic.
It should be very difficult to thwart these systems, but not impossible with enough effort and skill. Otherwise it just smell like a GM saying, "You can't do that, cuz I said so."
Exactly.
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