tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
This is a split from another thread:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=000579&p=2
From that thread:
I took a crack at revising the weapon data charts, guided by the following principles:
1. The armor chart reflects the weapon's ability to penetrate armor. Higher accuracy is *not* reflected on this chart. So against unarmored targets, for instance, there's no difference between a rifle or a gauss rifle. All armor modifiers are expressed as negative modifiers. If the armor has little effect on the round, the modifier is 0.
2. The range chart reflects the weapon's accuracy at each range. It also reflects additional projectiles fired by shotguns, flechette rounds and SMGs.
3. Some weapons don't appear on the chart because they are variants of other weapons. The autorifle is a rifle capable of autofire. The assault rifle is a carbine capable of autofire.
4. Jack and reflec are essentially useless against guns; therefore, they are not represented on the chart (which reduces chart clutter a fair amount). Treat a target in jack or reflect as having no armor. Lasers, however, are -8 against reflec. No armor means no modifier to hit. Therefore, No armor does not appear on the charts.
5. Unless otherwise stated, use all CT “to hit” modifiers.
So here's the revised chart for:
RANGE MODIFIERS
..............C.....S.....M.....L.....V
Carbine......-4.....0.....0....-2.....-3
Rifle........-4....-1.....0....-1.....-2
ACR-DS.......-4....-1.....0.....0.....-1
ACR-HE.......-4....-1.....0.....0.....-1
Gauss........-4....-1.....0.....0.....-1
Shotgun......-4....+1....+3....-6.....no
SMG...........0....+2....+2....-6.....-9
Laser Rifle..-4....-1.....0.....0.....-1
Laser Carb...-2....-1.....0....-1.....-2
Body Pistol..+2.....0....-4....no.....no
Revolver.....+1.....0....-3....-4.....no
Autopistol...+1.....0....-4....-5.....no
LAG - DS.....-4....-1.....0....-1.....-2
LAG - HE.....-4....-1.....0....-1.....-2
LAG - Flech..-4....-1....+2....+1.....-4
Acc Rifle....-8....-6.....0.....0.....no
Snub HE......+1.....0....-5....no.....no
Snub HEAP....+1.....0....-5....no.....no
Snub Tranq...+1.....0....-5....no.....no
LMG..........no....-6....+2....+2.....0
ARMOR MODIFIERS
...........Mesh...Cloth..Ablat...Cbt Arm
Carbine.....-2.....-3.....-1.....-5
Rifle.......-1.....-2.....-1.....-4
ACR-DS......-1.....-1.....-1.....-2
ACR-HE......-2.....-3.....-2.....-3
Gauss.......-1.....-1.....-1.....-2
Shotgun.....-2.....-4.....-2.....-7
SMG.........-2.....-3.....-2.....-6
Laser Rfl...-1......0.....-7.....-6
Laser Carb..-1.....-1.....-7.....-6
Body Pistol.-3.....-4.....-3.....-7
Revolver....-2.....-3.....-2.....-6
Autopistol..-2.....-3.....-2.....-6
LAG - DS.....0......0......0......0
LAG - HE....-1.....-1.....-1.....-3
LAG - Flch..-2.....-4.....-2.....-6
Acc Rifle...-1.....-1.....-1.....-3
Snub HE.....-2.....-3.....-2.....-4
Snub HEAP...-1.....-1.....-1.....-3
Snub Tranq..-3.....-5.....-2.....-10
LMG.........-1.....-2.....-1.....-4
Notes:
</font>
To sanity check this system, here are the base “to hit” numbers at medium range for the rifles (by armor type):
........None....Mesh....Cloth...Ablat...Cbt
Carbine...8......10......11......9......13
Rifle.....8.......9......10......9......12
ACR-DS....8.......9.......9......9......10
ACR-HE....8......10......11.....10......11
Gauss.....8.......9.......9......9......10
Shotgun...5.......7.......9......7......12
SMG.......6.......8.......9......8......12
Laser R...8.......9.......8.....15......14
Laser C...8.......9.......8.....15......14
LAG DS....8.......8.......8.....8........8
LAG HE....8.......9.......9.....9.......11
LAG Fl....6.......8......10.....8.......12
Acc Rfl...8.......9.......9......9......11
LMG.......6.......7.......8......7......10
Here are the “to hit” numbers for pistols at short range:
.........None...Mesh...Cloth...Ablat...Cbt
Body Pist.8......11......12......11......15
Revolver..8......10......11......10......14
Autopist..8......10......11......10......14
Snub HE...8......10......11......10......12
Snub HEAP.8.......9.......9.......9......11
Snub Tran.8......11......13......10......18
(Charts line up if font is Courier)
Observations:
This system is not really compatible with CT’s ratings, so it will be necessary to re-rate weapons appearing in supplements. Here are some of the assumptions that guided me:
1. My baseline weapon was the Rifle. I scaled other weapons off it.
2. To determine Range modifiers, I classed each weapon initially as a Rifle or Pistol and gave it generic “to hit” modifiers for range. I then tweaked the chart for specific weapons (making Carbines a little less effective at longer ranges, adding the +2 autofire bonus for SMGs, making SMGs a little nastier up close and less useful at long range, making revolvers a little more accurate than autopistols at medium range, etc.)
3. To determine Armor modifiers, I began by determining that armor modifiers would be negative numbers or zero. My rough scale:
Armor Means
0 Weapon easily penetrates armor.
-1 Weapon has a little trouble penetrating armor.
-2 Weapon has some trouble penetrating armor, but is still effective in the hands of a skilled user.
-3, -4 Weapon has a lot of trouble penetrating armor and is relatively ineffective.
-5, -6 Weapon has no real chance of penetrating armor.
I started with the Rifle and decided that it would be -2 vs Cloth and -4 vs Cbt Armor. I then scaled the other weapons by comparing them to Rifles. Carbines were a little less effective than Rifles; ACR-DS were a little better (and more accurate at longer ranges due to integral sights and gyrostabilization); and so on. Note that gauss rifles are *far* more rational in this system. They are better than ACRs, but are no longer Waste-O-Matics! In general, I wanted pistols to be relatively useless against armored targets, unless the firer was highly skilled. The exception is the snub pistol firing HEAP; it’s considerably more effective against armored targets.
These modifiers may seem modest, but remember that a +1 is a pretty big modifier in a 2d6 system; as much as a 17% shift.
The best base “to hit” number for a non-shotgun firing a single shot is 8+. Most autofire weapons get a 6+ or a 5+, so a decent skill/DEX bonus can result in very high chances to hit unarmored targets. I have no problem with that. Against normal armor (cloth), Rifles hit on a 10+ (17% chance of hitting), with armor-piercing weapons hitting on a 9+ (27%). Again, autofire and weapons skills/DEX bonuses can dramatically improve the chance of hitting.
In the original CT system, semiautomatic weapons generally have a little better chance of hitting armored targets, with autofire weapons having a system-breakingly better chance of hitting (the ACR hits Cloth at medium range on a 6+ and hits an unarmored target on a 1+). The absurdity worsens with lighter armored targets and with autofire weapons.
Here’s a modest bit of chrome. It seems clear to me that automatic weapon fire is relatively inaccurate, compared to aimed fire. In Iraq, journalists can tell the difference between US/UK soldiers and insurgents by listening – the well-trained Americans and Brits usually shoot single shots while the untrained terrorists usually fire full auto.
To reflect this, consider this rule –
When firing an autofire burst, the firer make take *either* the autofire bonus or his weapon skill bonus, but not both.
Comments?
http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=000579&p=2
From that thread:
I guess I can't stop myself. After looking at the CT guns charts, I think I understand where the designers arguably went wrong. The weapons modifiers for range and armor are just too high in most cases (particularly military and automatic weaponry). Also, they appear to have "double dipped" by applying modifiers for the same effect to both charts. The result are absurd "to hit" numbers in many cases.
I took a crack at revising the weapon data charts, guided by the following principles:
1. The armor chart reflects the weapon's ability to penetrate armor. Higher accuracy is *not* reflected on this chart. So against unarmored targets, for instance, there's no difference between a rifle or a gauss rifle. All armor modifiers are expressed as negative modifiers. If the armor has little effect on the round, the modifier is 0.
2. The range chart reflects the weapon's accuracy at each range. It also reflects additional projectiles fired by shotguns, flechette rounds and SMGs.
3. Some weapons don't appear on the chart because they are variants of other weapons. The autorifle is a rifle capable of autofire. The assault rifle is a carbine capable of autofire.
4. Jack and reflec are essentially useless against guns; therefore, they are not represented on the chart (which reduces chart clutter a fair amount). Treat a target in jack or reflect as having no armor. Lasers, however, are -8 against reflec. No armor means no modifier to hit. Therefore, No armor does not appear on the charts.
5. Unless otherwise stated, use all CT “to hit” modifiers.
So here's the revised chart for:
RANGE MODIFIERS
..............C.....S.....M.....L.....V
Carbine......-4.....0.....0....-2.....-3
Rifle........-4....-1.....0....-1.....-2
ACR-DS.......-4....-1.....0.....0.....-1
ACR-HE.......-4....-1.....0.....0.....-1
Gauss........-4....-1.....0.....0.....-1
Shotgun......-4....+1....+3....-6.....no
SMG...........0....+2....+2....-6.....-9
Laser Rifle..-4....-1.....0.....0.....-1
Laser Carb...-2....-1.....0....-1.....-2
Body Pistol..+2.....0....-4....no.....no
Revolver.....+1.....0....-3....-4.....no
Autopistol...+1.....0....-4....-5.....no
LAG - DS.....-4....-1.....0....-1.....-2
LAG - HE.....-4....-1.....0....-1.....-2
LAG - Flech..-4....-1....+2....+1.....-4
Acc Rifle....-8....-6.....0.....0.....no
Snub HE......+1.....0....-5....no.....no
Snub HEAP....+1.....0....-5....no.....no
Snub Tranq...+1.....0....-5....no.....no
LMG..........no....-6....+2....+2.....0
ARMOR MODIFIERS
...........Mesh...Cloth..Ablat...Cbt Arm
Carbine.....-2.....-3.....-1.....-5
Rifle.......-1.....-2.....-1.....-4
ACR-DS......-1.....-1.....-1.....-2
ACR-HE......-2.....-3.....-2.....-3
Gauss.......-1.....-1.....-1.....-2
Shotgun.....-2.....-4.....-2.....-7
SMG.........-2.....-3.....-2.....-6
Laser Rfl...-1......0.....-7.....-6
Laser Carb..-1.....-1.....-7.....-6
Body Pistol.-3.....-4.....-3.....-7
Revolver....-2.....-3.....-2.....-6
Autopistol..-2.....-3.....-2.....-6
LAG - DS.....0......0......0......0
LAG - HE....-1.....-1.....-1.....-3
LAG - Flch..-2.....-4.....-2.....-6
Acc Rifle...-1.....-1.....-1.....-3
Snub HE.....-2.....-3.....-2.....-4
Snub HEAP...-1.....-1.....-1.....-3
Snub Tranq..-3.....-5.....-2.....-10
LMG.........-1.....-2.....-1.....-4
Notes:
</font>
- Weapons capable of automatic fire add +2 when firing a burst; gauss rifles add +3.
The Autorifle is a Rifle capable of automatic fire; use the Rifle stats.
The Assault Rifle is a Carbine capable of automatic fire; use the Carbine stats.
SMGs normally fire automatically; their autofire bonus is already in the table.
If the target has no armor, jack armor or reflec, the “to hit” modifier is 0.
If a laser is shooting reflec, the to hit modifier is -8.
Advantageous DEX modifiers are as listed in CT, but all +2 modifiers are treated as +1 instead.
Autorifles, Accelerator Rifles, LAGs, ACRs and Gauss Rifles use the same DEX modifiers as Rifles. Assault rifles use the DEX modifiers Carbines respectively.</font>
To sanity check this system, here are the base “to hit” numbers at medium range for the rifles (by armor type):
........None....Mesh....Cloth...Ablat...Cbt
Carbine...8......10......11......9......13
Rifle.....8.......9......10......9......12
ACR-DS....8.......9.......9......9......10
ACR-HE....8......10......11.....10......11
Gauss.....8.......9.......9......9......10
Shotgun...5.......7.......9......7......12
SMG.......6.......8.......9......8......12
Laser R...8.......9.......8.....15......14
Laser C...8.......9.......8.....15......14
LAG DS....8.......8.......8.....8........8
LAG HE....8.......9.......9.....9.......11
LAG Fl....6.......8......10.....8.......12
Acc Rfl...8.......9.......9......9......11
LMG.......6.......7.......8......7......10
Here are the “to hit” numbers for pistols at short range:
.........None...Mesh...Cloth...Ablat...Cbt
Body Pist.8......11......12......11......15
Revolver..8......10......11......10......14
Autopist..8......10......11......10......14
Snub HE...8......10......11......10......12
Snub HEAP.8.......9.......9.......9......11
Snub Tran.8......11......13......10......18
(Charts line up if font is Courier)
Observations:
This system is not really compatible with CT’s ratings, so it will be necessary to re-rate weapons appearing in supplements. Here are some of the assumptions that guided me:
1. My baseline weapon was the Rifle. I scaled other weapons off it.
2. To determine Range modifiers, I classed each weapon initially as a Rifle or Pistol and gave it generic “to hit” modifiers for range. I then tweaked the chart for specific weapons (making Carbines a little less effective at longer ranges, adding the +2 autofire bonus for SMGs, making SMGs a little nastier up close and less useful at long range, making revolvers a little more accurate than autopistols at medium range, etc.)
3. To determine Armor modifiers, I began by determining that armor modifiers would be negative numbers or zero. My rough scale:
Armor Means
0 Weapon easily penetrates armor.
-1 Weapon has a little trouble penetrating armor.
-2 Weapon has some trouble penetrating armor, but is still effective in the hands of a skilled user.
-3, -4 Weapon has a lot of trouble penetrating armor and is relatively ineffective.
-5, -6 Weapon has no real chance of penetrating armor.
I started with the Rifle and decided that it would be -2 vs Cloth and -4 vs Cbt Armor. I then scaled the other weapons by comparing them to Rifles. Carbines were a little less effective than Rifles; ACR-DS were a little better (and more accurate at longer ranges due to integral sights and gyrostabilization); and so on. Note that gauss rifles are *far* more rational in this system. They are better than ACRs, but are no longer Waste-O-Matics! In general, I wanted pistols to be relatively useless against armored targets, unless the firer was highly skilled. The exception is the snub pistol firing HEAP; it’s considerably more effective against armored targets.
These modifiers may seem modest, but remember that a +1 is a pretty big modifier in a 2d6 system; as much as a 17% shift.
The best base “to hit” number for a non-shotgun firing a single shot is 8+. Most autofire weapons get a 6+ or a 5+, so a decent skill/DEX bonus can result in very high chances to hit unarmored targets. I have no problem with that. Against normal armor (cloth), Rifles hit on a 10+ (17% chance of hitting), with armor-piercing weapons hitting on a 9+ (27%). Again, autofire and weapons skills/DEX bonuses can dramatically improve the chance of hitting.
In the original CT system, semiautomatic weapons generally have a little better chance of hitting armored targets, with autofire weapons having a system-breakingly better chance of hitting (the ACR hits Cloth at medium range on a 6+ and hits an unarmored target on a 1+). The absurdity worsens with lighter armored targets and with autofire weapons.
Here’s a modest bit of chrome. It seems clear to me that automatic weapon fire is relatively inaccurate, compared to aimed fire. In Iraq, journalists can tell the difference between US/UK soldiers and insurgents by listening – the well-trained Americans and Brits usually shoot single shots while the untrained terrorists usually fire full auto.
To reflect this, consider this rule –
When firing an autofire burst, the firer make take *either* the autofire bonus or his weapon skill bonus, but not both.
Comments?
