OTU Only: Fleet Organization

[Condottiere]

Some quarters believe that a general purpose ship is a better solution than a series of specialist ones.

A well equipped and crewed one, that is.

You'd probably have to have such specialist cruisers either centralized, or deployed in the vicinity where you expect they'd be most useful, maybe attached in the meantime to a cruising task group.

 

[mike wightman]

The Fifth Frontier War order of battle and Imperial reinforcement rules show how the IN was deployed before and during the FFW period.

Supplement 9 also provides details (which ties in with FFW organisation).

These conflict with MT fleet organisation, and what is presented in Sector Fleet and Grand Fleet.

 

[salochin999]

There are the descriptions of fleets, found in Supplement 9, "Fighting Ships", pp 9-10, detailing the typical classes of ship that can be found in the various Imperial Fleets (Scouts, Escorts, Cruisers, Carriers, Battleships, Other Vessels). There's no mention of Destroyers, as we find them in the real world wet navies of today, I notice. Was this an omission, or just defferent nomenclature?

A lot of the details will revolve around the combat rules but I'd say the general principle is you have capital ships which specialize in causing damage to other capital ships at the longest range possible and as a result may lack defense against shorter range threats.

These other threats depend on the setting so for example if there are no stealth ships equivalent to submarines there is no need for a class of escorts to deal with that particular threat (destroyers IRL).

The capital ships in the list quoted are the battleships and carriers. Escorts are whatever escorts that make sense according to the combat rules and might be called various names (including cruiser) but whose purpose is protecting a capital ship in some way.

In addition your battle fleet might need local recon and various kind of auxiliary vessel like tankers and supply ships.

So from that list
- carriers or battleships
- escorts
- scouts
- other vessels
make up the battle fleet.

Then lastly you have a class of ships which operate detached from the battle fleet for various purposes for example acting as long range recon, commerce protection or commerce raiding. I define these as the cruisers.

Bear in mind naming conventions complicate things here because historically "cruiser" as a ship type can mean a lot of different things including escort.

I am defining escort and cruiser as separate functional categories: where one type escorts capital ships and the other type operates independently to help explain the next bit.

Then there's the article in the Wiki, regarding the various types or classes of Fleet (http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Navy#TO.26E_.28Organization.29); these are assault, battle, interdiction, penetration, strike, reserve, and depot.

However, nowhere does it clearly (to my ex-army mind) state what types of ship (and how many of them) are stuck in these fleets.

I'd suggest

battle - as listed above, capital ships, escorts, scouts, auxiliaries
assault - battle fleet plus marine fleet
interdiction - battle fleet plus attached cruisers
strike - cruisers
penetration - cruisers

 

[Redcap]

I'm having a

hard time wrapping my head around this.

The problem for me is knowing HOW MANY, and WHAT TYPE of ships go into a typical fleet; every single example I've seen thus far is different: There is NO uniformity that I can find. NO real world military would work that way without a solid reason, but I can't find any of that in Traveller fleets so far.

So, I'll state my plea again: Does anyone have a standard chart or fleet listing that would help me get a handle on this, please?

 

[CliffBates]

I have to say, this has all left me thoroughly confused, probably with the sheer size and complexity of fleet organisation.

I can follow (just about) that a fleet is made up of 3 or 4 groups, and that the make up of those groups (and the fleet as a whole) is dependent on the task for that fleet, but after that, I'm at a complete loss to follow what the hell the fleets are comprised of.

There are the descriptions of fleets, found in Supplement 9, "Fighting Ships", pp 9-10, detailing the typical classes of ship that can be found in the various Imperial Fleets (Scouts, Escorts, Cruisers, Carriers, Battleships, Other Vessels). There's no mention of Destroyers, as we find them in the real world wet navies of today, I notice. Was this an omission, or just defferent nomenclature?

Then there's the article in the Wiki, regarding the various types or classes of Fleet (http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Navy#TO.26E_.28Organization.29); these are assault, battle, interdiction, penetration, strike, reserve, and depot.

However, nowhere does it clearly (to my ex-army mind) state what types of ship (and how many of them) are stuck in these fleets.

Anyone got a chart, or even a listing, to help me understand this stuff, please?

I had real isseues with Sector Fleet as it agreeded with FSotSI, which I am now told isn't cannon. CT FS hint much larger numbers akin to my orginal post on this.

As to fleet make ups (TO&E) it would depend on the mission of the Fleet in question. Squadrons can be shuffled about by the Sector and Domain command. Fleets will be given specific missions, in division of labor, and the squadrons attached will best help it achieve its goals.

 

[Redcap]

OK, let me show you how I'm having a problem with this; let's take a (British) Infantry Division as an example...

This is from Wikipedia, and depicts 3 Mech (UK) Mech Div under the Army 2020 plans...

At a glance, you cen visualise how many vehicles, of what types, and the weaponry involved, along with the support arms and equipment as well. This is an Army version of a TO&E chart, and what I'm looking for to show me what a textbook Imperial Navy battlefleet might look like, so that I can then customise it to suit 130th Imperial Fleet.

Anyone got anything like that, please?

 

[Condottiere]

Communications lag, as compared to Johnson's capability to directly order a specific outhouse to be bombed in Vietnam, means that Sector Admirals have to make calculated guesses what assets to assign their field commanders.

 

[Redcap]

I don't disagree, but I honestly can't read the tealeaves that the various books and comments above are laying out; I need a chart at the least, to see what it is that I'm trying to work with.

 

[Condottiere]

Basically, there are enough numbers of capital ships, that they could be fielded together in their administrative units, whereas cruisers and escorts would be sent on patrol and reconnaissance missions.

Apparently Tigresses are despatched in individual independent task forces, which indicates that that might be normal procedure with all super dreadnoughts.

 

[Redcap]

So, and I'm guessing here, no-one's done a typical battle fleet TO&E chart, then?

Wow.

There's another think on the to-do list, then. My learning curve just went vertical again, darnit :rant:

 

[Redcap]

Right, in relation to map marking symbology: I've looked over the real world MIL-STD-2525 ("Common Navy Warfighting Display Symbology"), and found it a singularly lacking set of symbols for this purpose. Likewise, a google search failed to show any existing generic table top sci-fi counter symbols. So, I'll have to come up with something easy to read and easy to use (yes, I looked at Mayday and FFW game counters).

My current thinking is to base it on APP-6A-style battle map symbols, with the type letters within the box, hopefully per the Book 5 (1980 ed) rules on pp26, but with variations per the nomenclature for modern warships where required or desirable. This should allow for some reasonably consistent charting to be performed.

Thoughts / suggestions?

 

[Quint]

So, and I'm guessing here, no-one's done a typical battle fleet TO&E chart, then?

Wow.

There's another think on the to-do list, then. My learning curve just went vertical again, darnit :rant:

Well, hopefully not vertical.

Really what you want to do is look historically at the TOE of a pre-radio navy. Heck, even a navy right at the time of the inception of the radio. While it will miss some of the nuances of a "modern navy" (like airpower, and the TOE of a aircraft carrier in the RAW Traveller Navy is forbidding...) it's going to hit on the idea of big ships and little ships and what sort of force as deemed suitable to operate independently, etc...

Start to match that up to modern TOE's and I expect that things will start to fall into place relatively quickly. Currently the IMTU Imperial Army is my target, I expect that the Navy will be next.

D.

 

[casquilho]

I made my own when I was involved in an on line game. All I used was a simple box with a three letter code. Here is a sample of what I was doing...

Then from there I built up larger organizations.

I figure if you wanted to do the same most or at least some of the codes from modern ships would still work.

 

[Redcap]

Well, hopefully not vertical.

Really what you want to do is look historically at the TOE of a pre-radio navy. Heck, even a navy right at the time of the inception of the radio. While it will miss some of the nuances of a "modern navy" (like airpower, and the TOE of a aircraft carrier in the RAW Traveller Navy is forbidding...) it's going to hit on the idea of big ships and little ships and what sort of force as deemed suitable to operate independently, etc...

Start to match that up to modern TOE's and I expect that things will start to fall into place relatively quickly. Currently the IMTU Imperial Army is my target, I expect that the Navy will be next.

D.

I was thinking along similar lines, but see below too

I made my own when I was involved in an on line game. All I used was a simple box with a three letter code. Here is a sample of what I was doing...

(snip)

I was thinking of doing it along those lines, yes

However, I want, where I can, to keep to the two letter - or three letter if that winds up being impractical; for example, some of the ships, like dreadnoughts, have no proper modern descriptor; Guided Missile Destroyers, for example, have DG, Conventional Carriers CV, and Battleships BB; the problem is that a dreadnought is many times bigger than a battleship, and destroyers have already nicked the D suffix; then there's the suffix and maybe additional suffixes as well: Guided Missile nuclear submarines, for example, are SSBN; even if you remove the second S, it's still three letters.

Then there has to be consideration given to Book 5, HG, 1980 ed, pp 26, for Primary and Secondary identifiers. Dreadnought doesn't fit in that listing either, which is interesting. That said, you could make the case for ZH (unassigned, Heavy), but that clashes with the national identifier for the Zhodani Consulate! :rofl:

Gonna be interesting, solving this one!

Ideas welcome, naturally

 

[Condottiere]

The Imperium Navy is very well documented, even if the ship stats documented don't always match up with the design parameters.

 

[casquilho]

However, I want, where I can, to keep to the two letter - or three letter if that winds up being impractical; for example, some of the ships, like dreadnoughts, have no proper modern descriptor; Guided Missile Destroyers, for example, have DG, Conventional Carriers CV, and Battleships BB; the problem is that a dreadnought is many times bigger than a battleship, and destroyers have already nicked the D suffix; then there's the suffix and maybe additional suffixes as well: Guided Missile nuclear submarines, for example, are SSBN; even if you remove the second S, it's still three letters.

Then there has to be consideration given to Book 5, HG, 1980 ed, pp 26, for Primary and Secondary identifiers. Dreadnought doesn't fit in that listing either, which is interesting. That said, you could make the case for ZH (unassigned, Heavy), but that clashes with the national identifier for the Zhodani Consulate! :rofl:

Gonna be interesting, solving this one!

Ideas welcome, naturally

So I was thinking about this. I agree D seems linked to Destroyer. But thinking about Dreadnoughts were originally just the top of the Battleship food chain. What if you used something like the Battleship BB? Maybe BB-D or BD or maybe give them a single letter and a number B02 is the Dreadnought "ISS Daniel" a Tigress Class Dreadnought...
Well just some brain storming to help your effort.

 

[whulorigan]

So I was thinking about this. I agree D seems linked to Destroyer. But thinking about Dreadnoughts were originally just the top of the Battleship food chain. What if you used something like the Battleship BB? Maybe BB-D or BD or maybe give them a single letter and a number B02 is the Dreadnought "ISS Daniel" a Tigress Class Dreadnought...
Well just some brain storming to help your effort.

I believe Dreadnought is either "BH" (Heavy Battleship) or "BI" (Battleship/Imperial - implying top-of-the-line), IIRC.
In which case I guess BBH or BBI would work if you want to add the extra identifier letter.

 

[Condottiere]

They're line of battleships, whether obsolete or bleeding edge.

BB would be appropriate for dreadnoughts; large ones like the Tigresses with their own fleet carrier air group might be BBCV.

 

[Redcap]

Alright, I'm at something of a quandry. What TWO LETTER descriptor from B6(HG)1980 would you use to describe a Dreadnought?

Here's the table...

A	Merchant	A	Armored
B	Battle	B	Battle; Boat
C	Cruiser; Carrier	C	Cruiser; Close
D	Destroyer	D	Destroyer
E	Escort	E	Escort
F	Frigate; Fighter	F	Fast; Fleet
G	Gig; Refinery	G	Gunned
H		H	Heavy
I,J		I,J	Intruder
K	Pinnace	K
L	Corvette; Lab	L	Leader; Light
M	Merchant	M	Missile
N		N	Non-standard
P	Planetoid	P	Provincial
Q	Auxiliary	Q	Decoy
R	Liner	R	Raider
S	Scout; Station	S	Strike
T	Tanker; Tender	T	Troop; Transport
U		U	Unpowered
V		V	Vehicle
W	Barge	W
X	Express	X
Y	Yacht	Y	Shuttle; Cutter
Z		Z	Experimental

[TC="2"]Primary[/TC][TC="2"]Qualifier[/TC]

Also - anyone tell me why the darn table is creating all that white space above it?

 

[casquilho]

I say go with whulorigan's idea of BH or BI. They both could work.