OTU Only: Fleet Organization
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
Compensated G's = TL-9 in TNE. (FF&S, Page 78)
CliffBates
SOC-12
I agree with McPerth also about the The Longbow class destroyers--especially looking at their stats they are definitely not a patrol or anti-piracy unit--rather they are and ought to be part of a StrikeRon, with long J Strike Cruisers and the Longbow makes a good escort ship for such units.
Also regarding the shaping and forming of Squadrons, Task Forces and Flotillas--the ships that form them need to have the the same Jump capacity, the same Maneuver and relatively the same agility. The Longbow works well with the SEH class light Cruiser.
Why not go with some standard DEs? Also don't pile up on the Gazelles.. look for the Lucifer or the Valor class missile Corvettes (again from CT FASA) designs. I loved the FASA ships from the 80s... they are small Escort class ships. The Gazelle with its Jump 4/5 is often better used supporting long range StrikeRons for CruRons whose is composed of J5 ships. Or for long range Escort Patrols.
And if you are doing Patrol duty, where are the T4 Patrol Cruisers?
I better stop.. when I saw your original post it kept leading me to more and more thoughts. Sorry about the number of replies.
Also regarding the shaping and forming of Squadrons, Task Forces and Flotillas--the ships that form them need to have the the same Jump capacity, the same Maneuver and relatively the same agility. The Longbow works well with the SEH class light Cruiser.
Why not go with some standard DEs? Also don't pile up on the Gazelles.. look for the Lucifer or the Valor class missile Corvettes (again from CT FASA) designs. I loved the FASA ships from the 80s... they are small Escort class ships. The Gazelle with its Jump 4/5 is often better used supporting long range StrikeRons for CruRons whose is composed of J5 ships. Or for long range Escort Patrols.
And if you are doing Patrol duty, where are the T4 Patrol Cruisers?
I better stop.. when I saw your original post it kept leading me to more and more thoughts. Sorry about the number of replies.
Wow. LOTS of thoughts. OK, I don't have any of the FASA stuff; my MT stuff is in storage, and a right PITA to get to (long story), so I'm limited to what's online or in the CT CD-Rom, and I don't have anything bar MgT:SF past MT. So.
While I follow the thinking on unified jump capabilities, the border patrol along the Reft has to be capable of jumping out there, having a look-see, and jumping back, without refuelling, hence J-6. It also has, when things go south in a hurry, to be capable of dumping a spill of missiles on target rapidly, and then getting the wossit out of dodge to sprint back and sound the alarm. Hence the Nam Pak CSs.
The Longbows, while only J4, are heavily armed compared to others, hence the selection; as I just mentioned, I don't have access to the FASA stuff; are there recommendations from GDW pubs or online material you can suggest?
I really wanted to find some CLPs, but no joy - any ideas given the material restrictions above?
While I follow the thinking on unified jump capabilities, the border patrol along the Reft has to be capable of jumping out there, having a look-see, and jumping back, without refuelling, hence J-6. It also has, when things go south in a hurry, to be capable of dumping a spill of missiles on target rapidly, and then getting the wossit out of dodge to sprint back and sound the alarm. Hence the Nam Pak CSs.
The Longbows, while only J4, are heavily armed compared to others, hence the selection; as I just mentioned, I don't have access to the FASA stuff; are there recommendations from GDW pubs or online material you can suggest?
I really wanted to find some CLPs, but no joy - any ideas given the material restrictions above?
Yep. Valor is one of my favorites. I'd suggested mixing it up with not all SDBs. The same would go for Gazelles.
Redcap,
When i did MTU T20 conversions these we're the specs for the Valor. The deck plans/CT specs are on DriveThruRPG in the Adventure class FASA ships.
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/CT-Conversions-T20/Valor_MC.html
OK, found an excell spreadsheet to do book 2 designs, cobbled together this 2kton DL...
Vigilance-class DL Light Destroyer
Using a 2000-ton hull, the Vigilance-class DL Light Destroyer is intended for Solo Patrol and border protection. It mounts Jump Drive-Z, Maneuver Drive-Z, and Power Plant-Z, giving performance of Jump-5 and 5Gs of acceleration. A 1050-ton fuel tank provides fuel for the power plant and sufficient fuel for 1 jump-5. Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/7.
There are 43 staterooms and 82 low berths. The ship has 20 hardpoints and 20 tons allocated for fire control. Installed on the hardpoints are 20 triple turrets, with 20 missile launchers, 20 beam lasers, and 20 sandcasters.
There are 2 ship's vehicles: Pinnace, Shuttle.
Cargo capacity is 91 tons. The hull is streamlined.
The DL Light Destroyer requires a crew of 45: 3 pilot(s), 3 navigator(s), 15 engineer(s), and 20 gunner(s). The ship carries 32 ship's troops. The ship carries 0 other crew. A command staff of 5 officers oversees the crew. The ship can carry 0 passengers and 0 low passengers.
The ship costs MCr947.6 and takes 32 months to build.
I can supply the completed spreadsheet on request
If this design meets approval, it'll be stuck into the OrBat
Vigilance-class DL Light Destroyer
Using a 2000-ton hull, the Vigilance-class DL Light Destroyer is intended for Solo Patrol and border protection. It mounts Jump Drive-Z, Maneuver Drive-Z, and Power Plant-Z, giving performance of Jump-5 and 5Gs of acceleration. A 1050-ton fuel tank provides fuel for the power plant and sufficient fuel for 1 jump-5. Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/7.
There are 43 staterooms and 82 low berths. The ship has 20 hardpoints and 20 tons allocated for fire control. Installed on the hardpoints are 20 triple turrets, with 20 missile launchers, 20 beam lasers, and 20 sandcasters.
There are 2 ship's vehicles: Pinnace, Shuttle.
Cargo capacity is 91 tons. The hull is streamlined.
The DL Light Destroyer requires a crew of 45: 3 pilot(s), 3 navigator(s), 15 engineer(s), and 20 gunner(s). The ship carries 32 ship's troops. The ship carries 0 other crew. A command staff of 5 officers oversees the crew. The ship can carry 0 passengers and 0 low passengers.
The ship costs MCr947.6 and takes 32 months to build.
Code:
Book 2 Ship Design
Ship Type DL Light Destroyer
Ship Class Vigilance
Description of Duties and Purpose Solo Patrol and border protection
Minimum Warnings Value Performance Cost (Mcr) Tons
TL 15
Hull Size 2000 200
Engineering
Jump Drive Z 5 125 240
Maneuver Drive Z 5 47 96
Power Plant Z Z 5 73 192
Fuel Tankage
Power Plant 50 50 50
Jump Drive 1000 1000 1000
Bridge 40 20 40
Computer Model/ 5 7 60 5
Accommodations
Civilian/Military? military
Staterooms 41 43 21.5 172
Low Berths 0 82 4.1 41
Armament
Hardpoints 20 2
Triple Turrets 20 20
Fire Control 20 20 20
Missile Launchers 20 15
Beam Lasers 20 20
Sandcasters 20 5
Ship's Vehicles Pinnace 1 40 20
Shuttle 1 95 33
Cargo Capacity 91 2 91
Streamlined? Streamlined 200
Special Features
Crew
Pilots 1 3
Navigators 1 3
Engineers 15 15
Stewards 0 2
Medics 0 2
Gunners 20 20
Troops 0 32
Other 0 0
Command Staff 5 5 45
Construction Time 32 months
Totals 947.6 2000I can supply the completed spreadsheet on request
If this design meets approval, it'll be stuck into the OrBat
And how will J6 help in this?
There are only a handul of planets that can be reached from the Islands (with J4-J5 ships), but in all cases they must stop at halfway and jump again (so they need fuel for 2 jumps, tanker support or refueling bases halfway).
In all the cases, this stop will be at 4-5 parsecs of your border, so the capability of your J6 ships to make a J3 and return is useless for this recon...
I can even believe that some burocrate in Capital heard "rift" and decided that it needs the highest jump ships available, but it really does not make sense, as J4-5 will really be enough (that will allow them to even cross the rift if they can jump twice, as a J6 could while not even J6 can do it in a single jump) and allow for far better combat ships...
According the link you gave us, the Longbow is J6 and M3. No agility is given, but it says its main weapon is a missile bay.
Right, found a ship design program that works under WINE in Ubuntu Linux (YAY!), it's called High Guard Shipyard, available from Downport.com.
I've re-hashed the Vigilance design with it, increased the hull to 1,500dt, borne in mind the comments above regarding Reft jump issues, and here's the output.
Comments/thoughts?
I've re-hashed the Vigilance design with it, increased the hull to 1,500dt, borne in mind the comments above regarding Reft jump issues, and here's the output.
Code:
Ship: Vigilance
Class: Vigilance
Type: Pursuit Destroyer
Architect: Roger Stenning
Tech Level: 15
USP
DP-A1467F3-240200-30003-0 MCr 1,138.323 1.5 KTons
Bat Bear 5 5 5 Crew: 81
Bat 5 5 5 TL: 15
Cargo: 15 Fuel: 705 EP: 105 Agility: 4 Shipboard Security Detail: 2 Marines: 35 Pulse Lasers
Craft: 1 x 30T Ship's Boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 11.233 Cost in Quantity: MCr 913.658
With Drop Tanks
DP-A1242F3-240200-30003-0 MCr 1,138.323 2.205 KTons
Bat 5 5 5 TL: 15
Bat Bear 5 5 5 Crew: 81
Drop Tanks Cost: MCr 0.705Comments/thoughts?
CliffBates
SOC-12
Is it really a Pursuit Destroyer? I mean is to to pursue Corsairs and enemy patrol craft or offer Escort protection to a Fleet. The name says the former but the type of weapons and arms suggest the latter. I'd up gun it a bit, allowing it to easily have critical kills on most Ships under 600tons.
CliffBates
SOC-12
If you are going to kill pirates/corsairs or hit enemy patrol and light scouts... why not go for the bay and forgo the sand casters, just give yourself a bit better armor. But I have found that at 1-2Ktons its hard to get J4 6G ships.
I also like to use High Guard Shipyard v1.31 and the .hgs file would.
But again, the performance and the kind of weapons are connected to the mission of the ship. And the performance says one thing but the weapons and how they are arrayed say another.
Cliff -
File is at: http://www.coldwarprovost.org.uk/tlg/downloads/Vigilance.hgs (remember to 'right click' and 'save as'!
)
It was made with HGS 1.314
Tell me about the juggling act, it was hard enough to get that lot right; I had the dual mission of raider/pirate protection and Reft border patrols in mind, and for a 1.5kt bucket, that, as you so rightly said, isn't an easy fix
I could go all-out and make a relatively safe patrol cutter (corvette in size), but it wouldn't have the boarding party of marines, and it'd be well light on weapons. Likewise, it most likely wouldn't have a subordinate vessel, such as a ship's boat, to use either. Either way you look at it, small warship design is an exercise in compromises
File is at: http://www.coldwarprovost.org.uk/tlg/downloads/Vigilance.hgs (remember to 'right click' and 'save as'!
)It was made with HGS 1.314
Tell me about the juggling act, it was hard enough to get that lot right; I had the dual mission of raider/pirate protection and Reft border patrols in mind, and for a 1.5kt bucket, that, as you so rightly said, isn't an easy fix
I could go all-out and make a relatively safe patrol cutter (corvette in size), but it wouldn't have the boarding party of marines, and it'd be well light on weapons. Likewise, it most likely wouldn't have a subordinate vessel, such as a ship's boat, to use either. Either way you look at it, small warship design is an exercise in compromises
Right, think I've got it sussed. Please meet the Biathlon-Class EP Fast Corvette...
Ship: Gani Eshiirnii
Class: Biathlon
Type: Fast Corvette
Architect: Roger Stenning
Tech Level: 15
Cargo: 3 Emergency Low: 14 Fuel: 230 EP: 30 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 4.198 Cost in Quantity: MCr 335.816
With Drop Tanks
Detailed Description (High Guard Design)
HULL
500.000 tons standard, 7,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration
CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 5 Engineers, Medic, 5 Gunners, 4 Security, 2 Gig Crew
ENGINEERING
Jump-6, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 30.000 EP, Agility 4
AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6 Computer
HARDPOINTS
5 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT
5 Triple Mixed Turrets each with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-2).
DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in each Mixed Turret, organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-3)
CRAFT
None
FUEL
230 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant (Includes Purification for Drop Tanks), 330.000 ton drop tanks
MISCELLANEOUS
12 Staterooms, 14 Emergency Low Berths, 3 Tons Cargo
USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Ship's Gig (20.000 tons, Crew 2, Cost MCr 14.000)
COST
MCr 423.968 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.198), MCr 335.816 in Quantity
CONSTRUCTION TIME
91 Weeks Singly, 73 Weeks in Quantity
Biathlon Class Fast Corvette
HULL
Hull: 0.000 Td; MCr 60.000
Armour Factor-0: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000
ENGINEERING
M-Drive Factor-6: 85.000 Td; MCr 42.500
J-Drive Factor-6: 35.000 Td; MCr 140.000
P-Plant Factor-6: 30.000 Td; MCr 90.000; +30.000 EP
FUEL
P-Fuel: 30.000 Td; MCr 0,000
J-Fuel: 200.000 Td; MCr 0.000
Scoops: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.500
Purification: 3.000 Td; MCr 0.030
L-Hyd Drop Tanks: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.340
AVIONICS
Bridge: 20.000 Td; MCr 2.500
Computer Model/6: 7.000 Td; MCr 55.000; -5 EP
WEAPONRY
5 x Mixed Turrets: 5.000 Td; MCr 7.500
CRAFT
1 x Ship's Gig: 20.000 Td; MCr 14.000; -0.000 EP
ACCOMMODATIONS
12.0 x Staterooms: 48.000 Td; MCr 6.000
14 x Emergency Low Berths: 14.000 Td; MCr 1.400
Cargo: 3.000 Td; MCr 0.000
COMMENTS
The Biathlon-class Fast Corvette is intended for anti-piracy and border patrol missions. They are named after gold medal-winning Biathlon athletes from the Unity Games that are held every four years throughout the Imperium.
In anti-piracy missions, doctrine is to deploy them without drop tanks, in flotillas of three or four ships, so as to surround pirate vessels leaving them with no avenues for escape, the intention being to capture and put on trial those pirates they encounter. For such operations, they can carry four security troops or marines, who double as damage control parties while on board.
In border patrol operations, Biathlon class vessels are deployed singly, with their drop tanks, to allow for longer-duration patrol missions. Their general standing orders in the event of discovering threats to the Imperium, such as hostile incursions in force, are to "spot and scoot", reporting back to higher command at the earliest opportunity. For border patrol missions, the security troops are generally disembarked, with additional consumable stores brought on board to be stowed in the now vacant cabins.
The 14 Emergency Low berths are primarily for casualties, but also for prisoners that might be taken: A small ship is not the place to secure prisoners, so in the short term, it's more practical to secure them in the low berths, where they (a) will not stress available life support resources, and (2) removes the risk of them causing trouble in-voyage.
High Guard Shipyard hgs file available here: http://www.coldwarprovost.org.uk/tlg/downloads/Biathlon.hgs
If anyone's into drawing deck plans, cabin assignments and ranks of the crew are as follows:
Pilot (CO).......... ......Lt Cdr
Nav (XO)................. .Lt
Eng Ofr (2nd Ofr).....Lt
Gig Pilot..... .............Lt JG
Giv Nav............. .. .....CPO
Medic........ ..............PO3
Gun 1 .................PO3
Gun 2 .................SN
Gun 3, 4, 5.... ..........SA
Sy1............. ............PO1(Sy) or Cpl (E4)
Sy2................... ......SN(Sy) or LCpl (E3)
Sy 3, 4........ ............SA(Sy) or PFC (E2)
Cabin 1.....CO
Cabin 2.....XO
Cabin 3.....Eng Off (2nd Ofr)
Cabin 4.....Gig Pilot
Cabin 5.....Gig Nav
Cabin 6.....Medic & Gun 1
Cabin 7.....Eng 1 & 2
Cabin 8.....Eng 3 & 4
Cabin 9.....Gun 2 & 3
Cabin 10....Gun 4 & 5
Cabin 11....Sy1 & 2
Cabin 12....Sy3 & 4
Ship: Gani Eshiirnii
Class: Biathlon
Type: Fast Corvette
Architect: Roger Stenning
Tech Level: 15
Code:
USP
EP-5166663-030000-20002-0 MCr 419.770 500 Tons
Bat Bear 5 5 5 Crew: 19
Bat 5 5 5 TL: 15Cargo: 3 Emergency Low: 14 Fuel: 230 EP: 30 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 4.198 Cost in Quantity: MCr 335.816
With Drop Tanks
Code:
EP-5133163-030000-20002-0 MCr 419.770 830 Tons
Bat 5 5 5 TL: 15
Bat Bear 5 5 5 Crew: 19
Drop Tanks Cost: MCr 0.330Detailed Description (High Guard Design)
HULL
500.000 tons standard, 7,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration
CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 5 Engineers, Medic, 5 Gunners, 4 Security, 2 Gig Crew
ENGINEERING
Jump-6, 6G Manuever, Power plant-6, 30.000 EP, Agility 4
AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6 Computer
HARDPOINTS
5 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT
5 Triple Mixed Turrets each with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-2).
DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in each Mixed Turret, organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-3)
CRAFT
None
FUEL
230 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant (Includes Purification for Drop Tanks), 330.000 ton drop tanks
MISCELLANEOUS
12 Staterooms, 14 Emergency Low Berths, 3 Tons Cargo
USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Ship's Gig (20.000 tons, Crew 2, Cost MCr 14.000)
COST
MCr 423.968 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.198), MCr 335.816 in Quantity
CONSTRUCTION TIME
91 Weeks Singly, 73 Weeks in Quantity
Biathlon Class Fast Corvette
HULL
Hull: 0.000 Td; MCr 60.000
Armour Factor-0: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000
ENGINEERING
M-Drive Factor-6: 85.000 Td; MCr 42.500
J-Drive Factor-6: 35.000 Td; MCr 140.000
P-Plant Factor-6: 30.000 Td; MCr 90.000; +30.000 EP
FUEL
P-Fuel: 30.000 Td; MCr 0,000
J-Fuel: 200.000 Td; MCr 0.000
Scoops: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.500
Purification: 3.000 Td; MCr 0.030
L-Hyd Drop Tanks: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.340
AVIONICS
Bridge: 20.000 Td; MCr 2.500
Computer Model/6: 7.000 Td; MCr 55.000; -5 EP
WEAPONRY
5 x Mixed Turrets: 5.000 Td; MCr 7.500
CRAFT
1 x Ship's Gig: 20.000 Td; MCr 14.000; -0.000 EP
ACCOMMODATIONS
12.0 x Staterooms: 48.000 Td; MCr 6.000
14 x Emergency Low Berths: 14.000 Td; MCr 1.400
Cargo: 3.000 Td; MCr 0.000
COMMENTS
The Biathlon-class Fast Corvette is intended for anti-piracy and border patrol missions. They are named after gold medal-winning Biathlon athletes from the Unity Games that are held every four years throughout the Imperium.
In anti-piracy missions, doctrine is to deploy them without drop tanks, in flotillas of three or four ships, so as to surround pirate vessels leaving them with no avenues for escape, the intention being to capture and put on trial those pirates they encounter. For such operations, they can carry four security troops or marines, who double as damage control parties while on board.
In border patrol operations, Biathlon class vessels are deployed singly, with their drop tanks, to allow for longer-duration patrol missions. Their general standing orders in the event of discovering threats to the Imperium, such as hostile incursions in force, are to "spot and scoot", reporting back to higher command at the earliest opportunity. For border patrol missions, the security troops are generally disembarked, with additional consumable stores brought on board to be stowed in the now vacant cabins.
The 14 Emergency Low berths are primarily for casualties, but also for prisoners that might be taken: A small ship is not the place to secure prisoners, so in the short term, it's more practical to secure them in the low berths, where they (a) will not stress available life support resources, and (2) removes the risk of them causing trouble in-voyage.
High Guard Shipyard hgs file available here: http://www.coldwarprovost.org.uk/tlg/downloads/Biathlon.hgs
If anyone's into drawing deck plans, cabin assignments and ranks of the crew are as follows:
Pilot (CO).......... ......Lt Cdr
Nav (XO)................. .Lt
Eng Ofr (2nd Ofr).....Lt
Gig Pilot..... .............Lt JG
Giv Nav............. .. .....CPO
Medic........ ..............PO3
Gun 1 .................PO3
Gun 2 .................SN
Gun 3, 4, 5.... ..........SA
Sy1............. ............PO1(Sy) or Cpl (E4)
Sy2................... ......SN(Sy) or LCpl (E3)
Sy 3, 4........ ............SA(Sy) or PFC (E2)
Cabin 1.....CO
Cabin 2.....XO
Cabin 3.....Eng Off (2nd Ofr)
Cabin 4.....Gig Pilot
Cabin 5.....Gig Nav
Cabin 6.....Medic & Gun 1
Cabin 7.....Eng 1 & 2
Cabin 8.....Eng 3 & 4
Cabin 9.....Gun 2 & 3
Cabin 10....Gun 4 & 5
Cabin 11....Sy1 & 2
Cabin 12....Sy3 & 4
Last edited:
OK, I've been told that the links to the HGS files for Vigilance & Biathlon are iffy, at best. I've therefore linked to them via my traveller pages, see the land grab link in the sig strip below. They've been archived in zip format, so should work. If you have problems with the files, please let me know.
CliffBates
SOC-12
Roger, I went to your Land Grab but where exactly is your archive or the place to download the zipped files.. as I couldn't find them. Perhaps I looked in the wrong places. Thanks.
Cliff - should be here: http://www.coldwarprovost.org.uk/tlg/index.html
Go to the lower half of the page, they're listed under "miscellaneous stuff" (just got your second email, looking now!)
Go to the lower half of the page, they're listed under "miscellaneous stuff" (just got your second email, looking now!)
salochin999
SOC-13
Doing something similar and after reading the various threads my idea of a standard Batron settled on
1 x battleship
1 x escort carrier (80 fighters)
3 x fleet escorts
1 x corvette/courier
2 x auxiliaries (1 tanker, 1 other)
the escort carrier's fighters are the local recon
the fleet escorts are "just in case" anti-swarm protection
the corvette/courier is a courier plus any other odd jobs like admiral making courtesy visits on a planet
pulling directly from supplement 9 fighting ships
- escort carrier is the light carrier (29k)
- fleet escorts are either the destroyers (3k) or fleet escorts (5k)
