Fleet/Squadron Numbers

[Sturn]

I'm trying to get a good baseline for Traveller and/or modern Naval fleets and squadrons. What I'm trying to figure out is a ballpark figure of no. of squadrons per fleet and no. ships per squadron.

​

What I have so far:

• "Several" Squadrons per Fleet per modern sources.
• 2-4 primary ships per squadron. Squadrons are of one type/class of ship.
• A Squadron may have several support ships in addition to the primary ships (kind of conflicts with above).
• Not all modern Fleets use the sub-division of Squadron (but Traveller does).
• Traveller sources speak about Fleets and Squadrons, but I haven't found anything that details further other then MT Rebellion (no. of ships in a squadron, etc).

Questions:

• How many Squadrons per Fleet is the norm?
• How many ships per Squadron is the norm? Primary and support.
• Traveller source for details of a Squadron or Fleet? The most details I've found thus far is in MT Rebellion.

Thanks in advance. I was a ground pounder, not a Navy guy.

 

[Greylond]

Modern U.S. Navy uses the term "Fleet" as an organizational/administrative commands. Very few Fleet Commanders go afloat, their mostly on the level of Strategic Planning, with some Operational also depending. For example, "2nd Fleet" is the Command that includes everything in the Atlantic Ocean. "Pacific Fleet" is everything in the Pacific. Then there's lower level "Fleets" below that.

Look here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_units_of_the_United_States_Navy

Then you've got the Carrier Groups, one Aircraft Carrier with Support Units. A Carrier Group's support units are sometimes different "Squadrons" but they vary depending on the Group's mission and what's available. Then there's independent squadrons, some Crusier but mostly Destroyer Groups and Frigate Groups. They usually are used for Escort and/or ASW missions. And of course those groups don't always operate together.

Then there's the Air Wings. There are NO aircraft that are permanently assigned to a ship. ALL aircraft belong to an Air Wing. Some Air Wings are assigned to Carriers for a specific cruise(mission) and some(like Helicopter Wings) are split up amongst smaller ships, Destroyers and Frigates. While assigned to support a ship or a Group, the Air Wing is under Operational/Tactical Command of the Group/Ship Commander but also reports to and is responsible to the Naval Air Command.


A good book to pickup for good basic US Navy info is The Blue Jacket's Manual, which is the basic handbook of the Navy. Even if you get one that is a couple of years old it'll have good basic info in it.

 

[ThunderChilde]

Vague recollection here, the old board game of the 5th frontier war had squadrons numbering from 4-8 vessels as I recall. There may be sub-ordinate squadrons of escort and support vessels asigned on adhoc basis, or as a general deployment scheme depending. Been near about 20 years or more since I played it.

Somewhere around here was a discussion of the merits of force levels in squadrons at varoius levels. I'm sure the Grognards will chip in soon.

 

[Sturn]

Vague recollection here, the old board game of the 5th frontier war had squadrons numbering from 4-8 vessels as I recall. There may be sub-ordinate squadrons of escort and support vessels asigned on adhoc basis, or as a general deployment scheme depending. Been near about 20 years or more since I played it.

Thanks, running off to try to find my copy. Will report back when I take a look.....

....Back. Skimmed through it. I can't find anything in the rules that gives exact numbers. Squadrons described as "groups of ships" and fleet counters are used to move groups of squadrons of any amount.

 

[Grim Nefari]

Good rule of thumb, from which you can adjust as you see fit or most appropriate. This is generally what I use for my own stuff:

Division: 2-3 ships of similar class/role (i.e., destroyers, cruisers, etc)
Squadron: Group, typically two or three divisions (around 6 or so ships, sometimes with a designated flagship)
Group: 3 or more squadrons, assigned a specific major role, such as carrier group, battle group, destroyer group, missile group, etc.
Fleet: 2 or more groups, and attendant support infrastructure. While groups can stand on their own and operate independently, fleets combine the groups into one large administrative formation. Only in the most massive of engagements would one expect an entire fleet comitted to the same action, though would certainly make for some interesting gaming sessions, one would think!

 

[rancke]

[/LIST]Questions:

• How many Squadrons per Fleet is the norm?
• How many ships per Squadron is the norm? Primary and support.
• Traveller source for details of a Squadron or Fleet? The most details I've found thus far is in MT Rebellion.

• 
  It depends on the time and place. The answers will differ for the Imperial Navy and the OEU Navy and the Terran Confederation Navy. And the answers ought to differ for the Milieu Zero IN and the Classic Era IN and for the OEU Navy of -1000 and the OEU Navy of -420. If they don't, someone has taken a setup from one setting and done a cookie-cutter copy for another.
  
  OK, tradition can account for quite a bit of continuity, but a navy will be organized to solve the problems of its own time and place (or of the previous war in its own time and place, anyway ). Historically, at one point (Napoleonic Era) a squadron were all the ships assigned to a particular station (Windward Island Squadron, Leeward Island squadron, etc.) or a group of ships assigned to the same task on an ad hoc basis. A fleet was a bunch of ships big enough to be subdivided into several admirals' commands, in which case a squadron were all the ships assigned under the command of the same flag officer. Again, this was usually by function (e.g. the Inshore Squadron might be a bunch of frigates with shallow enough draft to operate further inshore than the main fleet) and temporary.
  
  For the classic Era IN, evidence is somewhat contradictory. A division is two identical ships plus their auxiliaries, but the number of divisions in a squadron can be two, three, or four (and there is one example of a ship type that's assigned to "oversized squadrons of ten to twenty" [FS:16]). Some statements seems to indicate that four ships to a squadron is the norm and the 8-ship squadrons we hear about are rare(r). However, the figures in RbS make it impossible to fit all the ships indicated into the number of squadrons indicated unless most of them are 8-ship squadrons.
  
  With that caveat, here is my take on the Classic Era IN:
  
  A regular fleet has 8-10 squadrons, roughly two CruRons per BatRon and with one or at most two special squadrons (e.g. TankRon, AssaultRon).
  
  A squadron ideally has four divisions (but may have less due to circumstances).
  
  For the OEUN
• , I'd suggest something a bit less rigid. For example, all ships stationed at or operating from the same base is a squadron, or a fleet if its big enough. A squadron is all ships assigned to a single flag officer.
  
  
  [*] An Old Earth Union fleet, abbreviated OEUF, is known by the slang term 'egg' (as in 'a tough egg to crack' ).​
  
  
  Hans

 

[aramis]

MegaTraveller's Rebelion Sourcebook, page 27:

Organization is essential to the star-spanning Imperial Navy; command control is best exercised when orders flow down through levels of organization. The Imperial Navy has established several levels of organization in order to better control and coordinate the operations and activities of its numerous ships. At their lowest level, Imperial ships are organized into squadrons (from three to 10 similar ships). Squadrons are grouped into permanent numbered fleets (usually three to 10 squadrons per fleet), although squadrons or individual ships may also be detached into temporary task forces for specific missions. Numbered fleets (usually within a single Imperial sector) are grouped into named fleets.​

 

[rancke]

"Each sector of the Imperium theoretically has a group of fleets numbering about 1000 ships. This number includes combat vessels such as cruisers, carriers, battleships, and some escorts; it does not include auxiliaries, support ships, and scouts." [RbS:27]

1000 combat vessels assigned to 16 fleets = 62.5 combat vessels per fleet = 6-8 per squadron for 8-10 squadrons.

There are a few weasel terms ('theoretically' and 'some escorts'), but then, many sectors don't have a full 16 fleets. I still think that 8 ships per squadron as the norm (said norm not being achieved in all cases) is a reasonable interpretation. The four-ship squadrons in FSotSI can be supposed to be the norm after several years of fighting.


Hans

 

[Sturn]

Thanks for the replies folks. It looks like MT Rebellion has the best information and more then I thought. I have a good idea of what I'm goind to do now thanks.

 

[aramis]

It should be noted that that 1000 ships across 16 fleets ignores the colonial squadrons of the reserve fleets... given that they are equal in number, thats 32 fleets per sector, giving a range of x1/2 to x2, depending on how one reads into the numbers.

 

[Hemdian]

Questions:

• How many Squadrons per Fleet is the norm?

Looking at Spinward Marches Campaign squadrons seem to be permanent units with a sense of history and "corps d'espirit" (if I've spealt that right). Fleets, on the other hand, appear to be entirely fluid. They are merely a grouping of squadrons under the control of an Admiral at that moment.

• How many ships per Squadron is the norm? Primary and support.

IMTU I use the defense factor of the 5FW counter to set the number of capital class ships. I have posted a general analysis and a specific fleet analysis.

• Traveller source for details of a Squadron or Fleet? The most details I've found thus far is in MT Rebellion.

The Spinward Marches Campaign gives the breakdown of the 154th Batron. However, recently I've come to realise it is flawed: Batrons and Crurons have an inate troop carrying capacity according to the 5FW boardgame (Batrons = 20 battalions, Crurons = # battalions equal to defense factor) but BR154 doesn't have that capacity ... suggesting that additional troop transports need to be attached to the squadron. Further, I've never been entirely comfortable with the whole supply and logistics issue ... I think a squadron would have some cargo haulers for resupply and possibly other ships too (like a hospital ship).

 

[E.D.Quibell]

O ... I thought this was mostly layed out in fighting ships.

A quick look shows for the Imperial Navy, each sector has a named fleet made up of multiple numbered fleets (one per subsector).

Each subsector has a numbered fleet, made up of multiple squadrons assigend to the subsector's Naval bases.

Each Naval base in a subsector is assigend a single squadron.

A Sqaudron is either a BatRon, CruRon, AssultRon,TankRon, ScoutRon.

A BatRon (typically) consists of 4xBattleship, 3xScouts, 2xTransports, 2xAuxiliarys and a Tanker.

A BatRon (Battle Rider) consists of 4xBattleships (Riders), 4xEscorts, 2xScouts, a BattleTender and a Transport.

A CruRon (typically) consists of 5xCruisers, 2xScouts, 4xEscorts, and an Auxiliary.

An AssaultRon (typically) consists of 4xEscorts, 3xTrasnsports, 2xScouts, an Auxiliary, a Cruiser and either a Tanker or a Dromedary.

A CruRon (Carrier) consists of either a Tanker or a Dromedary, a Transport, 4xScouts, a Carrier and 10xFighter Squadrons.

A TankerRon (Typically) consists of 2xAuxiliarys, a Cruiser, 4xTankers, 4xScouts, 2xTransports, and 4xEscorts.

and typical ScoutRons aren't defined.

So if we take Mora Subsector of the Spinward Marches as an example. Mora subsector fleet (number 73) is part of the Spinward Marches Sector fleet.

Mora has (from what I can see from the map) 4 Naval Bases, so the 73rd Fleet has 4 Squadrons. What those sqadron's are isn't provided.

As another example Rhylanor has 7 Naval Bases, so the 23rd Fleet has 7 Sqadrons.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

O ... I thought this was mostly layed out in fighting ships.

Contradicting information from other canonical sources (e.g. RbS says a fleet has from 8-10 squadrons) and common sense (e.g. if the Imperium has anything approaching a reasonable peacetime military budget for an empire surrounded by hostile and unfriendly empires, it would have more ships than RbS suggests[*], let alone FSotSI).


Hans

[*] Unless there are duchy (subsector) navies after all and they contain a goodly number of ships over and above the numbers in RbS.​

 

[Swiftbrook]

I'm trying to get a good baseline for Traveller and/or modern Naval fleets and squadrons. What I'm trying to figure out is a ballpark figure of no. of squadrons per fleet and no. ships per squadron.

​

What I have so far:

• "Several" Squadrons per Fleet per modern sources.
• 2-4 primary ships per squadron. Squadrons are of one type/class of ship.
• A Squadron may have several support ships in addition to the primary ships (kind of conflicts with above).
• Not all modern Fleets use the sub-division of Squadron (but Traveller does).
• Traveller sources speak about Fleets and Squadrons, but I haven't found anything that details further other then MT Rebellion (no. of ships in a squadron, etc).

Questions:

• How many Squadrons per Fleet is the norm?
• How many ships per Squadron is the norm? Primary and support.
• Traveller source for details of a Squadron or Fleet? The most details I've found thus far is in MT Rebellion.

Thanks in advance. I was a ground pounder, not a Navy guy.

There's a great quote by Joe Fugate in MegaTraveller Journal #3 about stuff like this. He was answering a question on how they came up with the number of SDBs (?) a particular system had. He replied that Traveller players have an overwhelming desire to reduce everything to a number or formula and that for this particular question DGP had simply 'made it up'. No number, no formula, just made it up. Now I can't quote directly because the books at home and I'm not. But is there a norm? Does there need to be? Can I have a squadron of one Azanti High Lightning, two Kinirir and four Close Escorts and be OK? Do I need a squadron to have eight Plankwell class dreadnaughts to be a squadron? Just make up what makes sence for your Traveller. I'm sure it will be just right.

-Swiftbrook

 

[rancke]

There's a great quote by Joe Fugate in MegaTraveller Journal #3 about stuff like this. He was answering a question on how they came up with the number of SDBs (?) a particular system had. He replied that Traveller players have an overwhelming desire to reduce everything to a number or formula and that for this particular question DGP had simply 'made it up'. No number, no formula, just made it up. Now I can't quote directly because the books at home and I'm not. But is there a norm? Does there need to be? Can I have a squadron of one Azanti High Lightning, two Kinirir and four Close Escorts and be OK? Do I need a squadron to have eight Plankwell class dreadnaughts to be a squadron? Just make up what makes sence for your Traveller. I'm sure it will be just right.

Actually, there was a formula (or table) for how many SDBs (or SDB factors) a system had. Unfortunately, it was based on the premise that the population multiplier of a system was 1 (not surprising, as it was created before the population multiplier was introduced). As a result, a system with nine times the population of another would have the same number of SDBs, whereas a third system with a population 11% higher than a fourth would have ten times as many SDBs.

Be that as it may, Sturn is trying to stay as compatible with the OTU as he possibly can. So what's right for his TU is what's right for the OTU. The problems come when those who wrote canon just made something up without any regard for rhyme or reason.

There's a concept called 'ballpark figure'. I don't really need to know the exact number of Imperial navy ships stationed in a system, but I do like to know if it's too few to help/hinder the PCs, just enough to maybe help/hinder the PCs, or too many to have a decent adventure there. In other words, a ballpark figure. And if the reaction of my PCs to that figure is "That can't be right!", then I'd like something more than "Oh yes it is!" for an argument.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It should be noted that that 1000 ships across 16 fleets ignores the colonial squadrons of the reserve fleets... given that they are equal in number, thats 32 fleets per sector, giving a range of x1/2 to x2, depending on how one reads into the numbers.

Yes, the reserve fleets is another weasel factor. So what would you say the ratio of combat vessels would be for regular:reserve fleets? Assuming for purposes of argument that the reserve fleets are counted in the 1000 ship figure (which I think is a rather iffy assumption)?


Hans

 

[aramis]

I'd say the colonial fleet is likely 1:1 in most places. 2:1 or more in core... simply due to the number of worlds that can upport such fleets.

 

[rancke]

I'd say the colonial fleet is likely 1:1 in most places. 2:1 or more in core... simply due to the number of worlds that can upport such fleets.

But colonial squadrons are raised by individual worlds, so their ships are new. Reserve fleets are specifically said to be composed of obsolescent ships. Regular IN hand-me-downs, presumably. That's one reason why I think subsector navies and reserve fleets are two different things.


Hans

 

[aramis]

But colonial squadrons are raised by individual worlds, so their ships are new. Reserve fleets are specifically said to be composed of obsolescent ships. Regular IN hand-me-downs, presumably. That's one reason why I think subsector navies and reserve fleets are two different things.


Hans

MT is explicit: colonial squadrons are stationed at worlds that can support them, and are part of the reserve fleets.

HIERARCHY OF SQUADRONS
Squadrons are classified according to their position within the hierarchy of the Imperium. Regular squadrons are frontline units equipped with the best possible ships and personnel. Colonial squadrons are equipped with obsolescent (but still serviceable) ships and with personnel having somewhat less training and experience. System squadrons are not jumpcapable. Instead, they are equipped primarily with system defense boats and monitors, and staffed by entirely local personnel.

Regular squadrons are assigned to the numbered fleets of the Imperium and are based at naval bases within the Imperium.

Colonial squadrons are assigned to the numbered reserve fleets of the subsectors. They are based at worlds which can provide personnel and technology to support them: worlds with tech code Early Stellar + (Tech Level 9 +) and High Population (Population 9 +).
RebSB 29, LC​

Subsector navies don't exist in the MT architecture. Even in advanced character gen, the subsector fleets are no more; instead the reserve fleets are there.

One can make a choice: either the IN reformed post 5FW, or MT is a separate universe, or it's a screw up.

 

[rancke]

MT is explicit: colonial squadrons are stationed at worlds that can support them, and are part of the reserve fleets.

[...]

Subsector navies don't exist in the MT architecture. Even in advanced character gen, the subsector fleets are no more; instead the reserve fleets are there.

Exactly my point.

One can make a choice: either the IN reformed post 5FW, or MT is a separate universe, or it's a screw up.

And I suggest that #3 is the best choice. There's no dispute that MT deliberately exchanged subsector navies for reserve fleets. It even did a search-and-replace in the character generation rules. CT doesn't mention reserve fleets; MT doesn't mention subsector navies. One or the other or both are wrong, for any single universe. Now, I like the notion of duchy (i.e. subsector) navies, except that I don't think the description of them being composed of obsolescent ships makes sense. And I think that reserve fleets composed of obsolescent ships make sense. So I think that combining the two and having BOTH duchy navies and reserve fleets makes for a more self-consistent (and fun) universe.

I certainly acknowledge that combining the two will mean that both canonical descriptions will be flawed. But then, I think both canonical descriptions are flawed anyway.



Hans