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Free skills?

I object to the characterization of all D&D players being whiny-must-have-super-hero-character twirps.

Unless I misread his intent, the reference to D&D was not meant as a slight (although as worded, it could be taken that way) as much as a simple statement of fact that D&D characters start out weak and get stronger as the game progresses. Thus every D&D player will have a chance to play a weak character since they all start at 1st level. Traveller Characters, in contrast, start out with a variable amount of built-in advancement behind them. A Traveller system which generates the space equivalent of a Name Level Fighter every time will result in players who never even see a weak character.
 
atpollard, the "weakness" in D&D characters is relative.

I took the original comment to be aimed at the player who must have characters with at least 3 and probably all of their stats to be near maximum. In D&D, a 1st level character isn't put up against things he can't handle if he uses his head, roleplays well, and doesn't completely screw the pooch on die roles. Even with horrible die roles, he might make it. A character with several max stats doesn't even have to role-play or use his head.

This is much like the effect of way too many skills given out to players. How much fun would playing Han Solo be if he could easily do everything he tries to do? The hyperdrive would never fail, he would never be outsmarted. He would never miss.

How much fun is that?
 
This is much like the effect of way too many skills given out to players. How much fun would playing Han Solo be if he could easily do everything he tries to do? The hyperdrive would never fail, he would never be outsmarted. He would never miss.

How much fun is that?

Well...er...you could always play MGT, get your 5 extra skills, and find out! :)
 
Ah, but it usually is (with competent gamers).

That seems like snobbery to me.

How high a characters stats are or how many skills they have absolutely has nothing to do with good or bad roleplaying.

A 'bad' roleplayer with weak character will whinge and whine, and with a strong one will roll play rather than role play.

A 'good' roleplayer will be a good roleplayer whether his/her character is weak or strong.

What's wrong with competent characters? What's the attraction to playing klutzes? If a player wants to play some kind of hotshot pilot why is it better he play Arnold Rimmer? To suggest he's a bad player because he's not keen on playing Rimmer just shows contempt for players.

A totally random chargen produces incredibly aberrent results quite routinely. Produces characters that cannot do their jobs. A mediated randomness, like in MGT, helps prevent oddness and gives the player some control over his character, while retaining the unexpected surprises that come with random.

Purely random chargen is, as has already been mentioned, essentially equivalent to a pre-gen. It makes no difference who rolls the dice, player or ref.

Anyway, connections skills don't neccessarily give you extra skills. You can increase a skill you already have, as long it does not go over 3. This is quite sensible, as the random rolls are rather more likely to give you a new skill rather than a skill increase. So lots of level 1 skills, a handful of level 2 are average. Too many doctors with Medic 1 in CT.

Granted that perhaps too many skills are given away in the skills package. You could get one for free then have to spend Mustering Out Benefits on gaining the rest.

Just needs a simple tweak. It most is most certainly not a game breaker.
 
I really see no problem with this so long as the int+edu limit is kept
Think how life growing up can give skills
4H clubs or growing up on a farm would give equestrian of some sort
My own daughter has archery-1 at age 12

once the limit of int+edu is reached, the player has to decide what skill to keep and what skill to let goet 'rusty' if he wants more.
Done this way, no skill that a character gets and had should go less than 0 ( noone forgets EVERYTHING about something he's done...just so much that he fumbles around until it come back to him...and then at the expense of other skills )
 
MoTrav lacks the Experience limit, but does have a different limiter on it: the more skills you start with, the more experience is required to raise skills in play.

I'm thinking the Int+Edu limit would be good, but none of my current MoTrav player's would have hit it yet. One is close... 7th term Navy CPO.
 
doh!
sorry..I guess the "as" should have been "if"

I guess I just think in terms of MT way too much
I don't think rtt will replace mt in my eyes
 
I like the INT+EDU Limit. This reflects the way real people do have their limits on what they can learn and use.

Daniel
 
I really don't see a few extra skills as a Crime Against Traveller.

Heck, it just makes characters a little closer to their Book 4-6 counterparts.
 
What I think is that the "Connections Rule" is silly (in that two PCs are given one extra skill each just because everyone decided everyone knew each other during chargen. A character can get up to two skills this way.

Then, on top of this, there's the "Skill Packages". More free skills. Just pass 'em out.

My comparison is not absurd. You might as well just give the PCs the skills you want them to have and forget chargen (or use chargen for the "other" skills the group has besides the ones you'll make sure they have).

Crazy. Don't like it at all.

It's just another mechanic for giving the player a bit more control over his destiny, as they like to do in these newfangled post-1980 RPGs. That being said, I also think the particular mechanic is cheesy.
 
It is.

You're still dealing with a 2D6 system. From the modifiers and the 8+ throw, the system can't stand too many characters with hordes of skills or it will break.

The -3 DM (or is it -4?) for being unskilled helps. But, the way the game is set up, there will be someone in the party, most likely, that has the needed skill.

It can stand characters with a lot of skills at level 1 (which is what the system produces) just fine. What it can't stand is characters with skill level 6 (which makes most routine-to-moderately-difficult tasks a sure thing) in a commonly-used skill. I've been making MGT characters like crazy since I got the book (I'm addicted to chargen in Traveller too) and that only happened once... my Noble with Advocate-5 is apparently the galaxy's most badass defence attorney.

Three characters go through chargen. That gives 'em a good number of skills (way more than CT). Then, you're talking about giving them another 4-5 skills on top of that.

There will be no weak characters with this system.

Some people will respond to that saying, "Waaaa! But, these are PCs! They're SUPPOSED to be heroes!"

And, I would remind this person that this isn't D&D. Players will never have the challenge of playing a weak character.

Spoken like someone who hasn't played enough D&D. I've had weak D&D characters, and they were a challenge. A fun challenge (I got bonus XP the time I got really excited because my 6-Strength wizard had eaten enough of his rations that he wasn't encumbered anymore) but a challenge nonetheless. There's a difference between "this group actually has a reasonable chance of succeeding at the tasks they're supposed to be doing for a living" and "this game is an overpowered munchkinfest!!!!"

That's the problem with point-design systems and systems like MGT where a plethora of skills is granted the player characters. Every fighter is a good fighter. Every scientist is a good scientist. Every engineer is a good engineer. Every pilot is a good pilot...

But in MGT, all that's really happening is that the pilot will be an okay pilot. And really, if the group doesn't have even one person that can fly the ship worth a damn, why would they go up in one?

At best, these are munchkin rules for munchkin gamers.

If even considered as part of the main rules, they should be in the "alternatives" sections where the point-chargen rules are for the munchkins.

These rules are definitely not for the serious Traveller player.

It's a bit of a stretch for you to claim to be the arbiter of what is and is not appropriate for "serious Traveller players." I don't know if you've noticed, but you seem to be pretty far out on the fringe, ideologically. Munchkin is a really strong (and poorly-defined, and grossly-overused) term to apply to these rules.

As I've stated before, I'm not fond of the connections rule or the skill package rule, because neither of them make much sense to me in-game. But I don't think either will have the catastrophic, doom-and-gloom munchkinizing influence you're describing.
 
I am a huge fan of the group skills packages and the contact bonus skills.

It seems that everyone arguing against the usefulness of these rules and MGT in general are really arguing for limiting player options.

Lets say I am running a traveller group based around a group of misfits who travel about in a beat up far trader.

Mal Ex army NCO Infantry 2 terms combat skills
Zoe Ex army NCO Infantry 2 terms combat skills
Jaine Rogue Enforcer 2 terms mostly combat skills
Hoban Ex Navy line/crew 1 term pilot skill
Kaylee Citizen colonist 1 term not much

Not a bad group as is but still likely to have a number of short falls when it comes to useful ship skills.

But with the group package we see a more well rounded group.
Starship package
Mal takes pilot-1
Zoe takes Medic-1
Jaine takes Gunner-1
Hoban takes Sensors-1 (or comms or astrogation)
Kaylee takes engineer-1

If Mal makes Zoe his contact and vice versa they both can bump a skill up +1 to a max of lvl3
Zoe sets Hoban as a contact
ect ect

By pooling available ship shares the group elects Mal to be captain and selects a old and run down far trader as their ship.

Could simulate the crew of Cowboy Bebop the same way.

The skill packages allow a person to play the character they want and still be somewhat useful on ship or what ever... depending on skill package taken. And that is a drastic improvement over earlier editions of the game.

As for skill bloat I am not seeing it and I have a person in my group that has Gun combat(slug pistol)4 Sure she can quick draw and shoot a guy at 20 feet almost every time but shooting a running person at 50feet who is ducking and using cover is not a done deal.
 
Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
Three characters go through chargen. That gives 'em a good number of skills (way more than CT). Then, you're talking about giving them another 4-5 skills on top of that.

Are you referring to the 0 lvl home world and basic training skills as way more than CT? Ever make a character using mercenary merchant prince or high guard? Those are CT and produce more skills in a PC than does MGT.

Also while getting all your service skills at 0 may seem a bit much for you I want to point out that by the time a character has three or four terms in most of those zero level skills will have been upgraded to level one. basically all the zero level skills are is a safety net to ensure you have a army character that can perform his duties. Ever roll a three term marine with vacc suit3 and cutless2? I have in CT. does that seem more balanced and realistic to you?

Once in a career you get the same amount of skills as you would in CT, one per term and an additional skill if you get a commission or promotion.. exactly like CT. Of course you could receive additional skills from your event rolls. you could also receive a bunch of enemies who want you dead or lose an arm or leg. MGT has improved CT and made a character gen system that doesn't just generate skills but also helps to generate a background allowing for greater depth and believability for your character. Sure it may seem silly to some but the merchant player in my group who generated a ex-wife that is also a contact on his home world likes the system. To him and the rest of the group that seed has provided the basis for a believable past.
 
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