Frontier vessel design criteria

[Major B]

I've been working on and off on a revised vessel classification system for MTU. What I'd like to build are some concrete criteria for designing vessels to meet a specific purpose or mission.

The first purpose/mission I'd like some help with is Frontier vessels. I've built a straw man of 38 criteria, listed below. Some are fairly specific to MTU, and all refer to MT design rules but they all should be clear enough.

I'm hoping to gather some feedback to this list in order to generate new ideas (for things I left off) or modifications to the items already on the list. After I have some feedback, I'll attempt to design a sheet that meets the listed specifications.

What I'm assuming is a common understanding of what a Frontier vessel actually does, but to be clear: The Frontier vessels patrol the fringe areas of the Imperium, usually operating alone to maximize coverage over large areas. They must be prepared to undertake long-duration missions while operating out of relatively austere facilities. They must also be able to intervene in surface operations for at least short duration missions (less than 30 days). Is this mission summary complete enough?

Here is the list of criteria, to serve as the straw man and start the discussion:

1) Must meet Fleet Minimum mobility requirements (J4, 4G, Agility 4)
2) Must be capable of 2G and Agility 2 under normal maneuver (NM) power, and 4G / Agility 4 under combat maneuver (CM) power
3) Must be capable of skimming for fuel, operating within an atmosphere, and it is preferred that the vessel be capable of landing on a surface downport
4) Must be able to purify enough fuel to conduct a maximum-range jump within 24 hours or less
5) Fuel capacity must allow normal maneuver power for 45 to 60 days minimum
6) Jump fuel capacity must allow for one full jump (to limit of J-Drive capacity) plus an additional J1 in reserve (escape jump)
7) Jump fuel tank must have connections to power plant fuel tanks to allow cross-leveling for longer endurance on station
8) Combat Weapons and combat maneuver fuel capacity must allow for twelve hours of operation
9) Must add between 1% and 5% to volume of Power Plant and Drives to allow for a Machine and Fabrication shop, Repair Equipment storage, Spare Parts storage
10) Add 50% to number of personnel in engineering crew and add 25% to the maintenance crew (note: #5 and #6 allow the vessel to go two years between annual maintenance overhauls and allows annual maintenance to be completed at class-C starports [not just class B or A] if the required parts are available)
11) Vessel armored to either light or moderate level (none = 40-48 [+0 to +2], light = 49-57 [+3 to +5], moderate = 58-66 [+6 to +8], heavy = 67 or higher [+9 or higher])
12) Sensor suite must be at maximum capability of design tech level and two backups for every system must be installed
13) Must mount a nuclear damper, a meson screen is preferred but not required, a Black Globe generator is not required
14) The vessel main computer must be within two levels of the maximum available at the vessel’s design tech level (for survivability and effectiveness of a lone vessel’s weaponry)
15) Two backups for the vessel main computer and the vessel’s avionics suite must be installed, and the vessel must have one or two backup bridges for emergencies (backup bridge must have at minimum a duplicate set of pilot’s controls, astrogator’s station, communications and sensors stations)
16) All devices (HHUDs and such) required for vessel control will be installed with at least one backup
17) Communications suite must include an inter-vessel maser/laser/radio suite able to broadcast and receive at the maximum range possible for the vessel’s design tech level, plus two backups of each
18) If possible, a meson communication system and one backup should be installed
19) If the vessel carries more than one craft, an additional maser/laser/radio suite plus one backup must be installed for flight control communications
20) If the vessel will deploy marines to engage in surface actions, and additional maser/laser/radio suite plus one backup must be installed for surface control communications
21) The design must have cargo space equal to at least 1% of the hull displacement, plus one ton per awake crew member
22) All crew members must be billeted in either small or standard staterooms – no double occupancy is allowed
23) After all crew billeting space requirements are calculated, at least 10% will be added to provide common and recreational space, physical training facilities, and/or storage space for provisions or equipment
24) The awake medical crew result from the vessel design sequence must be at least doubled – if the result is zero, then the medical crew will be at least one
25) Command and Bridge crews will be increased by at least 10%
26) Emergency low berths for 50% - 100% of the awake crew will be installed
27) A robust anti-intrusion system will be installed for the unlikely eventuality that all crew must enter emergency low berths, or to protect against hostile boarding
28) A frozen watch with at least 50% of each crew section and at least 25% of the marine complement will be provided
29) Extended life support allocations and requirements will be multiplied by 4
30) The vessel’s weaponry will be aligned so that approximately 2/3 are oriented toward offense and 1/3 toward defense
31) Vessels larger than 1000 Td will carry fighters or another craft for scouting and reconnaissance purposes
32) Carried craft and/or vehicles will be provided in pairs at a minimum
33) Space allocations for carried craft and/or vehicles will be increase by at least 25% to allow additional space for maintenance, loading, and training
34) Magazine capacity for expendable munitions must allow for at least twelve hours, with 24 hours preferred
35) The security marine ratio must be between 1:6 and 1:10 (1 security marine to X crew)
36) The surface-action marine contingent must be at least equal to and up to twice the size of the security marine contingent
37) The total size of the marine complement will be no smaller than a platoon
38)The vessel must have full electromagnetic masking and must have electronic circuit protection installed

 

[Easterner9504]

Ship

22) All crew members must be billeted in either small or standard staterooms – no double occupancy is allowed. Why???? Eats up tremendous space unless you stick them in tiny dog boxes 6'x6' square. Space is at a premium on ships that is why bunks used. So even a 6'x6' could hold two.

25) Command and Bridge crews will be increased by at least 10%. What does that mean. Warships work on watch principle. In J-Space you need one watchkeeper on duty in bigger ships. In normal space you need OOD, Pilot, Comm & Sensor on duty or 9 crew total. OOD will be drawn from CO, XO, Helm Officer, Navigation Officer, Elec Officer and Gunnery Officer. Other bridge positions are GQ only. Computer officer & 3 comp Ops vary depending on location.

27) A robust anti-intrusion system will be installed for the unlikely eventuality that all crew must enter emergency low berths, or to protect against hostile boarding. Past experience indicates such sophisticated A.I. systems generally end up robustly killing their own crews.

31) Vessels larger than 1000 Td will carry fighters or another craft for scouting and reconnaissance purposes
32) Carried craft and/or vehicles will be provided in pairs at a minimum. No military vessel operates a single fighter, fighters fly in pairs. Better with 1 pinnace, 1 APC, 3 air rafts. APC & A/R are able to insert from orbit.

35) The security marine ratio must be between 1:6 and 1:10 (1 security marine to X crew) Expecting a mutiny? Your Reaction force will not be off-board 24/7, Security is their job. 1 on bridge per hatch and 3 rotating as Captain's guard is sufficient. Also add a brig a MAA and staff; they guard ship if Marines off-board.

36) The surface-action marine contingent must be at least equal to and up to twice the size of the security marine contingent. The should be one and the same.

General Crew Needs
Officers
CO
XO
Operation Officer
Elec Warfare Ofc
Helmsman
Navigator
Computer
Gunnery
Assistant Gunner if very heavy battery carried
C.E.
2-3 Eng Off
Flight Op Officer
Forward Observer (Carried situationaly)
CMO

Officers can be reduced by George-ing them and giving multi-hats. CO/XO/Comp can replace Nav. Oper Ofc can replace Comp Ofc and a CPO could replace Comp Ofc. Comp & EW can be combined

MCPO - deck
CPO - Engr
CPO- Operations
CPO Gunnery
3 Pilots
3 sensors
3 commo
3 Comp
3 yeomen
3 Eng per Drive types (M, J, PP) and per drive rooms. More dispersed, more crew needed.
2 A-Gangers (Life Support)
2 Elec Engr
2 Mech Engr
1 Magazine attendant per magazine
1 Gunnery PO per battery.
1 gunner per turret
1 Cargo QM
1 Flght Engr
1 pilot per spacecraft
1 gunner per spacecraft
1+ Medics
1 MAA
3 Police
3 Idlers - Stores, post Office, maintenance, library, USO, laundry, cargo handling
4 Cooks
7 Messmen/Stewards

Ships serve 4 meals per day, 6AM, 12N, 6PM, Midnight. Officers require Stewards. Times vary but every 6 hrs would be perfect.

 

[Matt123]

My guess as written, your Fontier vessel will be Light Cruiser size, circa 20-40,000 dtons, mostly as a result of the fleet mobility specs +1 jump of fuel (ie: 50% of the vessel will be fuel tankage). Plus the payload of Frozen Watches, extra Bridges, extra accomodation & recreation facilities, Marine contingent, shuttles & fighters, redundent shuttles & fighters, increased hanger space, emergency low berths, extra crew, workshops, etc, etc.

Strategically one 'large' (very survivable & capable) Frontier vessel can still only be in one place. I would advocate considering several 'smaller' (less survivable & less capable) Fontier vessels for the same credits in order to cover more ground, but with much more cautious 'rules of engagement'.

To that end I'd drop the fleet mobility requirements and give it say J3 M2 Agility 0. I like the extra fuel capacity for an 'escape jump', but this in my mind wouldn't be cost effective and smacks of the designer nannying the Captain. Weapons I would steer toward defensive. Screens other than ND, I would drop. If screens are needed, so are Imperial Battleships & your Frontier vessel should leave. If comms with Fleet is a concern, perhaps consider carrying a 400tn Fleet Courier (J6).

Marine complement is interesting & potentially useful. A platoon is sufficient for bodyguard & ground security duties. A company plus support weapons would be the minimum for any direct action missions, plus dedicated fast armoured troop shuttles. To sustain 30 days operations, a Battalion plus support weapons should be carried as a minimum to allow for casualties, a reserve and rotating troops out of operations. The increased ships security troops requirement as already noted sounds a little paranoid.

I'm not a great fan of Frozen Watches in non-capital ships. Every rating knows they are expendable, it does ship moral little good knowing that your replacement just needs defrosting. Hardly makes you feel valued on long missions!

Just random thoughts to use or discard as you see fit.

Cheers
Matt

 

[rancke]

Strategically one 'large' (very survivable & capable) Frontier vessel can still only be in one place. I would advocate considering several 'smaller' (less survivable & less capable) Fontier vessels for the same credits in order to cover more ground, but with much more cautious 'rules of engagement'.

To that end I'd drop the fleet mobility requirements and give it say J3 M2 Agility 0. I like the extra fuel capacity for an 'escape jump', but this in my mind wouldn't be cost effective and smacks of the designer nannying the Captain. Weapons I would steer toward defensive. Screens other than ND, I would drop. If screens are needed, so are Imperial Battleships & your Frontier vessel should leave. If comms with Fleet is a concern, perhaps consider carrying a 400tn Fleet Courier (J6).

How about a carrier with jump-4 carrying a number of jump-1 capable riders. Have the recreational and specialist features on the carrier and the combat features on the riders. You can leave behind or send riders if you need to cover more than one system.


Hans

 

[Gadrin]

How about a carrier with jump-4 carrying a number of jump-1 capable riders. Have the recreational and specialist features on the carrier and the combat features on the riders. You can leave behind or send riders if you need to cover more than one system.


Hans

Sounds good, especially for the Zhodani Core Expedition.


>

 

[flykiller]

My guess as written, your Fontier vessel will be Light Cruiser size, circa 20-40,000 dtons ....

concur. using ct rules the engineering, armor, and crew reqs alone occupy 92% of vessel volume. be hard to squeeze in the cargo, platoon, vehicles, weapons, and weapons power plant/fuel reqs into the remainder without a large ship. if one ship is to "do it all" then it will have to be a big ship.

I have a 19000 dton J4/M6 cruiser that meets some of these reqs, like a platoon and extra cargo - comes nowhere near meeting them all.

Strategically one 'large' (very survivable & capable) Frontier vessel can still only be in one place.

a decisive observation - the ship has no strategic purview. J3 should be sufficient, and in fact may be underutilized in most patrol areas.

I would advocate considering several 'smaller' (less survivable & less capable) Fontier vessels for the same credits in order to cover more ground, but with much more cautious 'rules of engagement'.

agree in principle - I take a "tripwire" approach. 1900 dton J2/M4 frontier frigates with one big battery and a marine squad, on loan from the imperium to nobles and worlds that have no shipbuilding capacity of their own. more than a match for most merchant ships and ad hoc pirates, but if they have problems they go and get help.

of course all this assumes new purpose-built ships. likely the imperium has many obsolete, larger ships who could usefully fulfill the role of one-ship-does-it-all frontier cruiser. 'fact, they'd probably have a lot of them, and they'd fill quite a few roles - frontier cruiser, tax collections, show the flag, medical missions ("we're back, time for your yearly dental exams!"), colonist delivery/resupply, science surveys, ambassador delivery/recovery, reservist training, you name it. hey, sounds like a great active duty adventure ship.

 

[Ran Targas]

Long legs, turns on a dime, the stones to dish out some serious damage in a fight; this thing sounds like the 3I answer to the starship Enterprise

 

[Matt123]

How about a carrier with jump-4 carrying a number of jump-1 capable riders. Have the recreational and specialist features on the carrier and the combat features on the riders. You can leave behind or send riders if you need to cover more than one system.

I like that idea, but I'd form a small task force with a J3 capable Base ship and 3 or 4 patrol cruisers to extend the task forces footprint. Perhaps all arriving at different parts of the system at the same time, perhaps covering multiple systems, perhaps allowing the Base ship to stay static dealing with one systems issues while maintaining a patrol presence elsewhere. An accompanying J6 fleet courier might be useful as well.

If you like the task force idea, you can specialise the Frontier vessel more and devolve the combat capability to 1 or 2 escorting destroyers (1000-3000 tn range).

Thinking about it some more, perhaps use a Marine vessel as the flagship? Would give the Marine element, have space for specialist personal, possibly a flight of Marine fighters and sundry small craft. Ideal personal transport for a wandering Navy Commodore looking to impress low-medium tech worlds on the fringes.

Cheers

 

[mbrinkhues]

Long legs, turns on a dime, the stones to dish out some serious damage in a fight; this thing sounds like the 3I answer to the starship Enterprise

The one where the Captain mates with anything alive, sentient and female? Or the one that COULD kill that enemy ship easily but has a Captain that prefers to debate the problems on end over a cup of tea leaving the mating job to the XO?

 

[Matt123]

With this many spare crew on ice & storage capacity available for red shirts, it'll be the former...

 

[Major B]

Not sure in you can get all of that in a 1000 ton hull. Be a bit tough to get it in a 2000 ton hull.

Thinking a 3 to 4 thousand ton hull might be able to do it.

I'm hoping to keep the total hull displacement at 3k or less, because I think the Fleet's intent for frontier vessels would be more smaller ships rather than fewer bigger ships, but those smaller ships have to be able to defeat anything up to their size and be able to have the legs to get away from anything bigger and get a report up to higher.

When you say intervene in surface operations, thats about as big as saying patrol the frontier and just as different. How much intervening are you talking about.

Since the Frontier vessel needs to be moving as much as possible to maintain coverage over their assigned area, the Marines will never be deployed for extended periods. Interdiction vessels may do that, but not Frontier vessels. A relatively small marine contingent also limits the types of engagements the commander would commit to. Full-scale warfare no, but strikes, raids, HVI captures, noncombatant evacuations, and short duration site security missions would be viable types of actions. Of course, the local situation and possible threats have to be evaluated before any trooper would leave the ship.

And refuel in 24 hours or less. Well 1 ton of purifiers does about 100 tons of fuel in 24 hours or a little over 4 tons and hour (4.167t/hour) Thats a lot of skiming or icing for a 1000 ton hull J4 (assume 400t J Fuel + 160 P Fuel so you would need at least 6 ton Purifiers per 1000 tons of hull and thats 24 hours straight skimming. Your pilots are going to be wiped. And hope that you don't get hit/attacked while skimming.

Maybe the skimming and purifier rules are different for CT. In MT, the amount of fuel that can be gathered by the scoops is determined by the size of the hull. On the Kinunir I re-designed the vessel can top off all tanks (power plant and jump) in 114.6 minutes. The size of the purifier determines how long it takes to purify the J-Drive fuel, and that is what I was referring to in the specification. It will take 24 hours to cycle and purify all of the fuel in a full J-Drive tank. The vessel can be doing any number of other things while this is working. So, is 24 hours too long?

 

[Major B]

22) All crew members must be billeted in either small or standard staterooms – no double occupancy is allowed. Why???? Eats up tremendous space unless you stick them in tiny dog boxes 6'x6' square. Space is at a premium on ships that is why bunks used. So even a 6'x6' could hold two.

Actually I tend to agree. What I was trying to drive at here was to create additional life support space since the vessel will often go for long stretches between port calls. Doubling up many of the crew members makes sense from both an economical and leadership sense, but I think there needs to be enough space to allow the crewmembers some privacy from time to time, if it can be done. I use the extra billeting space left over after doubling up the crew to allow for common areas, physical training facilities, and other amenities - and I should have written the specification that way.

25) Command and Bridge crews will be increased by at least 10%. What does that mean. Warships work on watch principle. In J-Space you need one watchkeeper on duty in bigger ships. In normal space you need OOD, Pilot, Comm & Sensor on duty or 9 crew total. OOD will be drawn from CO, XO, Helm Officer, Navigation Officer, Elec Officer and Gunnery Officer. Other bridge positions are GQ only. Computer officer & 3 comp Ops vary depending on location.

I see your point. I wrote this one because I've done 12-on, 12-off shifts for long periods of time and it is very hard to sustain. What I want to see is enough crew to be able to man all critical systems for 8-on and 16-off if it can be done. If that can be done without increasing the size of the crew, even better.

27) A robust anti-intrusion system will be installed for the unlikely eventuality that all crew must enter emergency low berths, or to protect against hostile boarding. Past experience indicates such sophisticated A.I. systems generally end up robustly killing their own crews.

Yes, I had the fate of the Kinunir in mind when I wrote that one, but if everyone has to go into the freezer, there has to be a way to only allow the good guys to get aboard. I have no idea right now what this system will look like, but I agree it has to have limits.

31) Vessels larger than 1000 Td will carry fighters or another craft for scouting and reconnaissance purposes
32) Carried craft and/or vehicles will be provided in pairs at a minimum. No military vessel operates a single fighter, fighters fly in pairs. Better with 1 pinnace, 1 APC, 3 air rafts. APC & A/R are able to insert from orbit.

Agreed again, but I'd prefer an arrangement like 2x ship's boats, 2x APCs, and 2x Air Rafts so that each can deploy and operate in pairs to provide cover for one another - for the same reason that fighters operate that way.

35) The security marine ratio must be between 1:6 and 1:10 (1 security marine to X crew) Expecting a mutiny? Your Reaction force will not be off-board 24/7, Security is their job. 1 on bridge per hatch and 3 rotating as Captain's guard is sufficient. Also add a brig a MAA and staff; they guard ship if Marines off-board.

The size of the security marine contingent is based more on the requirement for Frontier vessels for law enforcement work (as MPs), to undertake boardings and inspections, because IMTU these guys are the brig guards, and finally because this vessel operates alone so having more security available just seems like a good idea.

36) The surface-action marine contingent must be at least equal to and up to twice the size of the security marine contingent. The should be one and the same.

Disagree there. The primary and secondary skills for surface combat troops and security troops is different enough that I keep them as separate specialties. Surface guys can certainly help the security troops when fighting shipboard and vice-versa, but they each specialize in thier particular field.

General Crew Needs... (condensed)

That is a great staffing breakdown - I'll be referring back to that in the future.

 

[Major B]

My guess as written, your Fontier vessel will be Light Cruiser size, circa 20-40,000 dtons, mostly as a result of the fleet mobility specs +1 jump of fuel (ie: 50% of the vessel will be fuel tankage). Plus the payload of Frozen Watches, extra Bridges, extra accomodation & recreation facilities, Marine contingent, shuttles & fighters, redundent shuttles & fighters, increased hanger space, emergency low berths, extra crew, workshops, etc, etc.

Agree Matt, but my intent for the vessel was to keep it at no more than 3k Td. The hardest problem to overcome will be the extra jump fuel - seems like a good idea but I will probably either have to eliminate the extra jump fuel or reduce the base jump capability. We'll see.

Strategically one 'large' (very survivable & capable) Frontier vessel can still only be in one place. I would advocate considering several 'smaller' (less survivable & less capable) Fontier vessels for the same credits in order to cover more ground, but with much more cautious 'rules of engagement'.

Right. That's is why I had a 3k Td hull in mind. I'd hope to have Frontier vessels be small enough that I could make lots, capable enough to defeat an equal-sized opponent one-on-one, and with the legs to allow it to escape from any enemy it can't beat.

To that end I'd drop the fleet mobility requirements and give it say J3 M2 Agility 0. I like the extra fuel capacity for an 'escape jump', but this in my mind wouldn't be cost effective and smacks of the designer nannying the Captain. Weapons I would steer toward defensive. Screens other than ND, I would drop. If screens are needed, so are Imperial Battleships & your Frontier vessel should leave. If comms with Fleet is a concern, perhaps consider carrying a 400tn Fleet Courier (J6).

The agility-0 drop would provide the biggest benefit in terms of saved space. Using the MT rules, achieving good agility requires enormous power plants. Agree with your advice on the screens too, and a level-4 ND rather than a level-7 should be sufficient. Carrying the courier is a great idea that I hadn't thought of, although the standard 400-Td design would be too big for the small hull I'm hoping to achieve. Might have to experiment to see how small a J-4 courier I can come up with.

Marine complement is interesting & potentially useful. A platoon is sufficient for bodyguard & ground security duties. A company plus support weapons would be the minimum for any direct action missions, plus dedicated fast armoured troop shuttles. To sustain 30 days operations, a Battalion plus support weapons should be carried as a minimum to allow for casualties, a reserve and rotating troops out of operations. The increased ships security troops requirement as already noted sounds a little paranoid.

Agree for sustained combat operations, but I don't imagine deploying the troops for 30 days at one stretch because the troops stay with the ship and the ship has to keep moving except in emergencies. The vessel needs to carry 30 days worth of supplies for the marines, but would more likely deploy them for a 1-day extraction of a noble's family in system X, followed by four days reinforcing the starport guards in system Y until the rioting downtown is brought under control, followed by a 2-day raid mission in system Z, before finally returning to a starport to refit and replenish. The commander of the vessel will only deploy his marines to undertake missions that are within their ability to accomplish. Situations beyond his abilities will be reported to higher HQ, and if important enough, a larger marine contingent will be sent that way, and if the mission will take too long, then army troops will follow those marines in short order.

I'm not a great fan of Frozen Watches in non-capital ships. Every rating knows they are expendable, it does ship moral little good knowing that your replacement just needs defrosting. Hardly makes you feel valued on long missions!

Hadn't thought of this from your perspective before. Valid point that I need to consider more.

 

[Major B]

How about a carrier with jump-4 carrying a number of jump-1 capable riders. Have the recreational and specialist features on the carrier and the combat features on the riders. You can leave behind or send riders if you need to cover more than one system.

I like that idea, but I'd form a small task force with a J3 capable Base ship and 3 or 4 patrol cruisers to extend the task forces footprint. Perhaps all arriving at different parts of the system at the same time, perhaps covering multiple systems, perhaps allowing the Base ship to stay static dealing with one systems issues while maintaining a patrol presence elsewhere. An accompanying J6 fleet courier might be useful as well.

If you like the task force idea, you can specialise the Frontier vessel more and devolve the combat capability to 1 or 2 escorting destroyers (1000-3000 tn range).

Thinking about it some more, perhaps use a Marine vessel as the flagship? Would give the Marine element, have space for specialist personal, possibly a flight of Marine fighters and sundry small craft. Ideal personal transport for a wandering Navy Commodore looking to impress low-medium tech worlds on the fringes.

I like these ideas a lot - the task force is much more flexible so rather than make one ship that can do everything to an extent but nothing well, a group of more purpose-built vessels can be tailored to specific threats or frontier areas.

I also like the rider idea because it allows each individual ship to be more powerfully armed and more maneuverable. Also agree with Hans' assertion that each rider still needs to retain J1 too.

 

[Major B]

concur. using ct rules the engineering, armor, and crew reqs alone occupy 92% of vessel volume. be hard to squeeze in the cargo, platoon, vehicles, weapons, and weapons power plant/fuel reqs into the remainder without a large ship. if one ship is to "do it all" then it will have to be a big ship..

Thats why I started this discussion flykiller. MT gives some advantages when trying to fit more capabilities into a given hull, but not many. Thats why I want to consider mission requirements in an unconstrained way, then figure out how many of those requirements can be met within a given hull tonnage.

a decisive observation - the ship has no strategic purview. J3 should be sufficient, and in fact may be underutilized in most patrol areas.

I see the point, but my intent for J4 capability wasn't for patrol range. Rather it was escape range and reporting time. I thought that, whenever possible, the vessel would try to stay within J4 of a base or outpost so that if an emergency develops, the report can be delivered in only one week.

Following the Task Force idea above, this range can be reduced to J3, maybe even J2. Have to think some more on that concept.

 

[Whipsnade]

I see your point. I wrote this one because I've done 12-on, 12-off shifts for long periods of time and it is very hard to sustain. What I want to see is enough crew to be able to man all critical systems for 8-on and 16-off if it can be done. If that can be done without increasing the size of the crew, even better.

Major,

I've been slowly slogging through your "strawman specifications" and everyone's reactions to them. While many of the points I wanted to raise have been raised already, I going to respond to the watch standing assumptions above. (And Flykiller might beat me to that!)

Your crew IS NOT going to be standing eight hour watches. Navies learned long ago that six hours is about as far as you want to push things. Yes, special evolutions like flight ops, general quarters, and the like will stretch watches out, but for everyday, long term, entire deployment, watch standing six hours is the maximum.

(Part of this has to do with "freshness" and part has to do with the work day. You crew will also NOT be working while also standing watch.)

If there are three duty sections, the crew will stand "four and eights". Two section duty will require "six and sixes". If the number of duty sections is more than three, the crew will stand "four and whatevers". Four hour watches are the preference and six hour watches are the maximum.

Further complicating the matter, your entire crew will NOT be on the same watch rotation either. Depending on manning levels, qualifications, and other issues different parts of the crew will be on different rotations. In my engine room aboard USS California, we had different watches on 6x6s, 4x8s, and 4x12s at the same time.

IMTU, many watches get "spread" when in jump. A 4x8 'stretches" into a 6x12 once the plug is pulled because less equipment has to be monitored during jump.

Hope this helps.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Major B]

That helps a lot Bill. Thanks for that even though it does make things more complicated.

If I'd understood that while finishing off the Kinunir I might have come up with a different structure, but that actually helps justify the structure I came up with for the screens division.

Thanks again to everyone who's posted on this thread - I'm learning a lot from all the feedback.

 

[Easterner9504]

Type

I see the keyboards got busy of a suddon.

On US warships Marines provide security and officer escort (their original reason for being in RN). Having lesser trained personnel means less ability to be flexible. i.e. sending improperly trained troops into combat (say everything went pear shaped) risks heavier than necessary casualties among the mis-trained. If you want true police better to carry a unit of the Imperium's uniformed police Scout Security which handles policing in Starports and their orbital High Ports as USN ships carry a Coastie detachment if they feel may run into drug runners.

The crew guideline is based on 1000t bigger ships will expand and more superflous officers and idlers will be carried.

 

[Maccat]

frontier vessel thoughts

Good stuff in here, great ideas!
My own personal take on frontier vessels leans more toward the leviathan thing, specifically, back up drives as a means to extend operational time between overhauls. The idea being you "run out" for a year on one set of drives, then "run back" on the back ups for the other year. All that would be worse case scenario, alternate could be scavenging the back up drives to replace damaged components from fights...
Keeping the overall tech level of the ship low allows for more ports to be used as servicing places, i tend to go J2 M2/4 P4, with fuel for J4 (maybe 3)(more to allow travel along the XBoat lanes than anything else) the maneuver being tied to agility requirements. Use of energy weapons allows for less need for reprovisioning of missiles, sand etc. Tend to go best TL comp and a fiber optic back up to satisfy jump/ship size requirements, and forgoe the nuc damper entirely, but then try n get like armor 4-6 (HG). I just like the idea of a dinged up hull <s>.
All of this is more along the lines of the "many, small" rather than a large cruiser type dealie. Pragmatically most of the trade 'n traffic runs J1, maybe J2 much better to be in that mix. I've been toying with a scout cruiser (J2/TL B) idea that uses 100t launch tubes (for scouts/xboats) as a semi-mobile base resupply/refit (and mapping!), could be one per subsector in inner worlds, less out on the frontiers, as an alternative to the xboat tender thing. I tend to go with the 1000t (maybe 1999t lol) surface installation limit in both naval and scout bases, that being max tonnage supportable, anything over that tends to stay in orbit and needs more shuttle service.
ENTIRELY agree with single occupancy stats, i use a dual pulse laser as equivalent to a bidirectional laser comm, security AND marines, try for the HG 1/300t as sizing (that's the high end), all this coincidentally allows belt surveying/mining a la beltstrike.

 

[shadowdragon]

Major,

Your crew IS NOT going to be standing eight hour watches. .....

(Part of this has to do with "freshness" and part has to do with the work day. You crew will also NOT be working while also standing watch.)

If there are three duty sections, the crew will stand "four and eights". Two section duty will require "six and sixes". .......

Four hour watches are the preference and six hour watches are the maximum.

Further complicating the matter, your entire crew will NOT be on the same watch rotation either. Depending on manning levels, qualifications, and other issues different parts of the crew will be on different rotations. In my engine room aboard USS California, we had different watches on 6x6s, 4x8s, and 4x12s at the same time.

IMTU, many watches get "spread" when in jump. A 4x8 'stretches" into a 6x12 once the plug is pulled because less equipment has to be monitored during jump.

bill, iirc its 8 hours of watches in 24, generally broken down to 4 hours on per 12 hours. am i correct there (ie. thats what you mean by 4x8's?). if so, is that 8 hours off down time or is that where "work" gets squeezed in as well? it looks, from what you were saying, that ships on long term deployments break each day into 12 hour segments and the crew is split into duty sections to cover the "day"

my impression of the crew requirements for traveller, T20 especially, is that the numbers actually only cover 1 duty section. it seems to me that, especially in a military vessel, there would have to be more crew aboard in order to cover 24 hours without the crew becoming exhausted in fairly short order. i am working out a modification to crew requirements based on the theory military and commercial ships like to have stations manned at all times for saftey and security reasons, and these are the 5 general assumptions i am beginning with:

1. military ships with a duration of longer than 3 days (ie powerplant fuel for 3+days) will run 3 duty rotations in a 4 on 8 off arrangement. commercial ships will at a minimum run 2 duty rotations, with 3 being preferred for the larger ships

2. military ships with powerplant fuel for 1-3 days will run 2 duty rotations minimum, with the captain able to change that to 3 rotations if the mission requires it ( i hadnt thought about it but just changing that would require additional crew, unless the crew was already there and running 1 duty rotation in 12 hours instead of 6x6's, cush duty in that case). few commercial ships i can think of would have 1-3 days duration, i think it would be either 24 hrs or less or 3+ days (likely 7+ days but i am giving myself some leeway)

3. all ships/vessels with 24hrs or less duration will be in space only as needed, military ships would be either scramble craft or shuttles of some sort. scramble crews would be on 4x8's and on call, shuttle crews would work 8x24's. commercial ships would work standard work shifts, with as many shifts as needed (generally 3 at the busier starports, maybe only 1 or 2 at less frequented ports.

4. all ships grounded for more than 3 days would go to 8x24's with 1 day off in 7 for basic fire security watches until loading and unloading happens (this is assuming the crew is large enough to allow this, and they are not responsible for all the maintenance on their own.)

5. jump is when monthly maintenance occurs on systems not required for jump ops, otherwise it is fitted into the flight schedule/port call time as needed.

are these reasonable or have i forgotten to take something into account?


and finally, bill would you be willing to expand a bit on what would bring about multiple duty sections on different rotations at once?


as far as maintenance goes, i get the impression that many people believe that if maintenance times go beyond a certain spacing, the ship suddenly stops working. I.E. - the ship has been doing courier runs for the last year, and been very conscientious about monthly maintenance. a "situation" arises and they are unable to go in for their annual maintenance. does the ship suddenly go "poof" if they try to jump? try to leave atmo? i don't think it would. i think that each individual system would have a higher chance of failure based on when the last time it was maintained, since monthly maintenance doesn't necessarily hit each and every item every month. some items may undergo additional stress if they don't get their annual maintenance but they are not going to shut off or break immediately.
in the real world, i have known people who only fixed the broken things on their car, putting water in only when it ran hot and putting oil in when it made certain noises, air the tires when obviously low etc.... the car didnt die on them at the end of the year- it just kept going (granted its performance dropped, and generally sucked gas) until it died, usually many years down the road. this is what makes life fun for the gm- the life support system rated for 12 people only works for 11, or 10. the m-drive rated at 4g but puts out 3.92g and takes 10% more power. the powerplant that sucks 2% more fuel and puts out 5% less power. lights that flicker and go out randomly, temperature controls that go out, the j-drive that couldnt hit the 100d limit in a thousand years or shuts off after sucking down 1-20% of the jump fuel, then works perfectly for the next jump. THE FOUL AND MYSTERIOUS STENCH!!!!