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General ** Could a 16-ton Light Fighter effectively operate as a pirate vessel?

Two points:
  1. It is highly illegal (at least in Imperial controlled space) to "spoof" your transponder signal.
    Why? Because there are no "legitimate good reasons" for doing so.
  2. Corsairs hack their transponders to enable "spoofing" of their signals as a matter of entry level routine to becoming a career pirate vessel.
In the Traveller context, they only way to "fake" gun turrets is to have a turret installed but then leave the turret empty of weapons.
Note that this is precisely what the Type-S Scout/Courier does, standard, with its dual turret empty of weapons.

Mind you, the REAL reason why that was done in LBB2.77, LBB2.81 and LBB S7 is because of the computer programming rules used by LBB2 combat (which LBB5.80 made, thankfully, obsolete). Under LBB2 computer programming rules, the "basic" computer programming package for a model/1bis computer meant that you would get a (mere) MCr1 worth of computer programs "for free" with the construction cost of the starship. Under LBB2.81, p41 this meant that a Scout/Courier could afford the following computer programs out of their Standard Software Package allowance:
  • Maneuver (1 space, MCr0.1, allows use of maneuver drive)
  • Jump-1 (1 space, MCr0.1, allows use of jump drive)
  • Jump-2 (2 spaces, MCr0.3, allows use of jump-2)
  • Navigation (1 space, MCr0.4, controls use of jump drive)
  • Anti-hijack (1 space, MCr0.1, helps prevent hijacking)
0.1+0.1+0.3+0.4+0.1 = MCr1

This wasn't even enough to afford the Generate program (1 space, MCr0.8) as part of the Standard Software Package. You would need to upgrade the computer to a model/2 (!) in order to get the following computer programs "for free" in the Standard Software Package allowance with construction of the starship:
  • Maneuver (1 space, MCr0.1, allows use of maneuver drive)
  • Jump-1 (1 space, MCr0.1, allows use of jump drive)
  • Jump-2 (2 spaces, MCr0.3, allows use of jump-2)
  • Navigation (1 space, MCr0.4, controls use of jump drive)
  • Generate (1 space, MCr0.8, produces flight plan for jump)
  • Library (1 space, MCr0.3, contains local information)
0.1+0.1+0.3+0.4+0.8+0.3 = MCr2



Do you notice what's missing from that list? :unsure:
Spoiler:
Any programs having to do with weaponry.
  • Target (1 space, MCr1, required in order to fire turrets)
  • Launch (1 space, MCr2, allows launch of missiles and sand)

In other words, the minimum computer you need to be able to put lasers into turrets and get the program you need to shoot that laser as part of the Standard Software Package is model/3. If you want to use missiles, you'll need a model/5 for its Standard Software Package cost allowance.

And considering that LBB2 computers only go up to model/7 ... this meant that spending (lots of) MCr on aftermarket computer programs to enable combat capability was a pretty significant expense!

Simply adding the turrets (not included in original construction) plus weapons plus computer programs on a J1 Free Trader would increase the ship's cost by more than +10% ... hence why any armament was left as "aftermarket additions" to the basic class design.

The thing is ... sensor scans of a J1 Free Trader would be able to identify "Turrets? (Y/N)" ... and possibly what types of turrets are installed (single/dual/triple) ... but a sensor scan would NOT be able to determine (before the shooting starts) what weapons were loaded into those turrets, let alone if the computer had the necessary programs to be able to "run combat" on that specific starship.

So to put it simply, it was possible to "bluff" just by installing turrets (at operator's expense) and then leave them empty. You didn't have to go ALL the way to actually arming the ship, you just "make it LOOK LIKE" you were armed, even though you weren't (turrets: yes, weapons: no).



Of course, there would be other ways than just a sensor scan while on an intercept course to be able to determine if the turrets mounted on the hull were a bluff or not. If the ship was surveilled/staked out while berthed at the starport, intel could be obtained concerning crew size (no gunners on payroll means no weapons) in order to be able to "pierce the bluff" of the empty turrets. Likewise, a SPA employee/contractor could be bribed to gather intel while the starship is berthed and undergoing replenishment on the programs available to the computer (no Target program, no weapons) and pass that along to an agent/contact who works with the pirates to set up hits on outbound traffic.

Needless to say, just because your starship is parked in a starport berth doesn't mean that the "security threat" to your starship and crew has ENDED. It just means that the forms of security threat switch over from being craft to craft (while maneuvering) to being much more person to person (loose lips pirate ships) ... which can include anything (and everything) about the details of your starship and crew, up to (and including) coercion, kidnapping and in extreme cases murder for hire. Even something as simple as imprisonment of a crew member on trumped up charges by allies/colleagues of a pirate gang can keep a starship "stuck in port" for longer than was planned, giving a pirate operation more time to gather intel on YOUR starship and crew, which then raises the stakes for the merchant operator.

Security Through Obscurity "works" ... until it doesn't. 😓
I think your understanding of LBB2 computers is flawed. A model1/bis can load 4 programs, just need maneuver and you’ve got capacity for maneuver then any 3 of the space 1 combat programs. If it’s jump time you can swap out some of the others to enable generate and jump. You could run generate and maneuver then 2 combat programs, then dump maneuver and load jump 2 and still fight with the combat programs.

As to not being default software, I’d say that’s a feature. Computers were clearly the major upgrade item, whether better model or programs. Time to negotiate a deal with the service for upgrades- course there may be nasty missions to do to gain such favors….
 
I think your understanding of LBB2 computers is flawed. A model1/bis can load 4 programs, just need maneuver and you’ve got capacity for maneuver then any 3 of the space 1 combat programs. If it’s jump time you can swap out some of the others to enable generate and jump. You could run generate and maneuver then 2 combat programs, then dump maneuver and load jump 2 and still fight with the combat programs.

As to not being default software, I’d say that’s a feature. Computers were clearly the major upgrade item, whether better model or programs. Time to negotiate a deal with the service for upgrades- course there may be nasty missions to do to gain such favors….
Spinward Flow wasn't talking about the capacity of the computers, but about how much software they come with as standard, and (I think) arguing that the lack of money for combat software in the 'free' software budget was a hidden reason why many ships in CT were fitted "for but not with" weaponry.
 
Spinward Flow wasn't talking about the capacity of the computers, but about how much software they come with as standard, and (I think) arguing that the lack of money for combat software in the 'free' software budget was a hidden reason why many ships in CT were fitted "for but not with" weaponry.
Well yes it is, no argument that there is an upgrade game built into starships and the larger trade/pirate game. Buying the fighting software is part of that.
 
Ships don't come with weapons in their turrets, or even turrets.

You have to upgrade. Upgrading your computer programs is part of that.

Scout/Courier - One double turret with its fire control is installed on the ship's hardpoint, but no weaponry is mounted

Free Trader - No turrets or weaponry are installed, but there are two hardpoints and two tons are set aside for fire control

Subsidized Merchant - No turrets or weaponry are installed, but there are two hardpoints and two tons are set aside for fire control.

Subsidized Liner - No turrets or weapons are installed, but there are three hardpoints and three tons are set aside for fire control.

Yacht - No turrets or weaponry are installed, but there is one hardpoint and one ton has been set aside for fire control.

Mercenary Cruiser - Eight turrets are installed, with fire control, but no weaponry is carried <note it doesn't say what capacity turret>

The only armed ship in LBB:2

Patrol Cruiser - There are four triple turrets installed, with fire control; two mount lasers and two mount missile racks

Or to put it another way - if you are going to consider the cost of the turret and the weaponry you also have to consider the cost of the computer programs to run them.
 
I always imagined that LBB2 ships were sold without software to reduce the cost, and owners were expected to write or buy the software separately, and of course it's unique to each ship class, at least, so corps with monolithic fleets only need to write one set, though I imagine they keep a software department around for updates and bugfixes. Maybe each ship is unique enough to need custom software. Obviously qualified player groups can manage this themselves, given time, as each small trading ship crew writes its own code as best it can..

LBB5 ships, in my imagination, have software written to milspec by government coders, for what that's worth.
 
Ships don't come with weapons in their turrets, or even turrets.

You have to upgrade. Upgrading your computer programs is part of that.

Scout/Courier - One double turret with its fire control is installed on the ship's hardpoint, but no weaponry is mounted

Free Trader - No turrets or weaponry are installed, but there are two hardpoints and two tons are set aside for fire control

Subsidized Merchant - No turrets or weaponry are installed, but there are two hardpoints and two tons are set aside for fire control.

Subsidized Liner - No turrets or weapons are installed, but there are three hardpoints and three tons are set aside for fire control.

Yacht - No turrets or weaponry are installed, but there is one hardpoint and one ton has been set aside for fire control.

Mercenary Cruiser - Eight turrets are installed, with fire control, but no weaponry is carried <note it doesn't say what capacity turret>

The only armed ship in LBB:2

Patrol Cruiser - There are four triple turrets installed, with fire control; two mount lasers and two mount missile racks

Or to put it another way - if you are going to consider the cost of the turret and the weaponry you also have to consider the cost of the computer programs to run them.
I believe the Corsair is armed, is it not?
 
I believe the Corsair is armed, is it not?
Not a LBB2 ship.
xM3RC23.gif

Are you SURE it's not a LBB2 design? :unsure:

LBB S4, p41-42:

ZLKn27s.png


LBB2 "letter drives" ... ✔️
Standard software package (worth MCr2) ... ✔️
400 ton hull which is not streamlined, but no USP configuration code is provided ... ✔️
Fuel capacity is WELL in excess of what would be required by LBB5.80 (92 tons) and even in excess of what LBB2.81 requires (110 tons) in order to extend endurance on station while waiting for suitable "prey" targets to roam on by ... ✔️

If it's not a LBB2 starship design, it's doing a wonderful job "spoofing" the design paradigm used for it ... 😅
 
Or to put it another way - if you are going to consider the cost of the turret and the weaponry you also have to consider the cost of the computer programs to run them.
Yes, of course.

You can upgrade the ship, and turrets and software are the easiest. You can even write your own software.
LBB2'81, p14:
Computer software (programs) must normally be acquired separately by purchase (or they may be written by a character who has computer expertise).
...
Original design plans for ships often include reserve tonnage for later use in installing fire control equipment, or for upgrading computers.
Ships are meant to be upgraded and customised.


There's even an in-game motivation:
LBB2'81, 41:
4. Typically, hardpoints are designated on a ship design plan, but turrets and weapons are left off to reduce the total ship cost as well as the architect's fee. They may be added later.
 
If it's not a LBB2 starship design, it's doing a wonderful job "spoofing" the design paradigm used for it ... 😅
Mike Wightman listed ships in LLB2. Then the corsair was mentioned, but it's not in book 2. I was perhaps imprecise in my reply, but my point was that it wasn't from Book 2, and thus Mike's right - the Patrol Cruiser is the only ship in Book 2 that is supplied with an armament.
 
I believe the Corsair is armed, is it not?
Yes, but it isn't in LBB:2 which is why I didn't include it. I even said "the only armed ship in LBB:2"

Safari Ship - The hull has one hardpoint mounting a double turret, although no weapons are installed as the ship comes from the factory.

Lab Ship - The ship has two hardpoints specified, but no turrets or weaponry.

Corsair - Most important to this ship are the three triple turrets, although each turret is equipped with only one beam laser

Seeker - Alterations in the ship include installation of a mining laser in a single turret... The mining laser operates as a pulse laser-1 in combat situations

So there you have it, only three ships come with weapons (3/11) - the patrol cruiser, the corsair, and the seeker, a few have turrets with no weapons installed (3/11), while the majority have hardpoints but no turrets or weapons (5/11).
 
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Just realized that the notion of a 16 ton Light Fighter with (LBB2.81 standard) Drives-A/A installed has a fundamental flaw in it.
Links: 1 & 2

Which means that it's back to the drawing board at the naval architect's office for me on this topic. 😓

This will mean new developments in my Pondering Starship Evolution thread (on the off chance that anyone has been following my thought process there) ... :unsure:
Your references are bogus, for one simple reason: CT Book 2's drive table is NOT FORMULAIC.
Anything under 100 Td uses the 100Td line. Anything 100.5-200 uses the 200, etc.

That makes the A drive only 2G.
 
That matches the rules as written: "Use next larger size hull for intermediate tonnages."

Hulls from 1 to 99 are therefore treated as 100 by the rules as written :)

Pass the popcorn...
 
All you need to do is extrapolate from the small craft descriptions, all house rules of course. Start with a table:

Small crafttonnagemaneuverfuelcrewcomputerweaponsexcesspayload-engines
Fighter10t 61t1m11l/3mr/3sc1t4.5-5.5
Launch20t11t2-3mr/3sc13t16-4
Ship's Boat 30t61.8t2-1l, 2 (mr, sc}13.7t17.5-12.5
Slow Boat30t31t2-1l, 2 (mr, sc)19.9t22.9-7.1
Pinnace 40t52t2-2l, 1 (mr, sc)22.4t26.4-13.6
Slow Pinnace40t21t2-1l, 2 (mr, sc)31.6t34.6-5.4
Cutter50t32t2-2l, 1 (mr, sc)2.5t + 30t36.5-13.5
Shuttle 95t32.85t2-2l, 1 (mr, sc)71t75.85-24.15
 
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** Given the constraints of a TL=9 16-ton Light Fighter, is it feasible for such a small vessel to successfully engage in piracy operations? Consider the limitations in armament, speed, and cargo space, and how it might adapt to these challenges.
Funny this should happen to pop up.... I'm starting to deal with this in the game I'm running.

There's Belters operating old-old-cheap TL-7 and TL-8 mining boats in the Carmel system, working the Trojan leading and trailing the gas giants.
They use 30-50 tons boats, most of which have fission reactors (the system's got lots of fissionables) and taking on water as reaction mass. This very much limits how many G-turns they can do and still make it back to a spaceport to sell their take.

The moon Shakleton has a pirate freeport - the system Navy is small and hasn't the resources to go stomp it out, and the IN only comes through now and then. It's not commonly visited by Jump-capable pirates, but is home to a number of people with "Modern" TL-9 or 10 armed small craft that use M-drives.

If your 16 ton Light Fighter had enough room for 2 or 3 people for a boarding party / prize crew, they could do pretty well for themselves capturing mining boats and taking them back to Shakleton to be stripped for sellable/usable parts, and the mined ores smuggled back into the economy
 
Next step look at the "engine allocation" and compare with g rating and hull size.

"Engines"maneuver ratinghull tonnagemr*ht</"engines"
5.56106010.9
4120205
73309012.9
5.42408014.8
12.56301209.6
13.654020014.7
13.535015011.1
24.1439528511.8
 
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