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Fuel as Cargo

Why not just add additional fuel tanks over and above what you need that can be pumped wherever you want it? This would be a dedicated collier I would suppose? If you want to use cargo space as such when not carrying fuel then just use collapsible fuel tanks.
 
There could also be a need for stellar refinery ships that gather the solar wind from the local class O star and provide refueling where even schemes like: "However, if the need is consistent enough, one could fire off chunks of ice in low-C speeds on a constant feed to the station. Even if it takes 75 years to get there, a constant stream of ice could keep everyone fueled and put the tankers out of business.", don't work due to the local star subliming the ice before it can reach it's intended destination.

The Oort cloud coolly refutes your assertion from it's icy mansions- the target refueling stations IMTU are in-between the stars, not near the primary world or it's star anyway.

However, things like the Sirius refueling situation in Imperium would be an example of that class of ship being necessary.
 
Always thought that for a trader vessel (j2/3) that fuel would be a cargo item. I mean, consider a 200 ton Far Trader (j2)....why on earth have move an extra 20 tons of fuel doing a jump 1? wouldn't it make more sense to just have enough fuel to do a jump 1, THEN if a j2 is required, extra fuel can be carried? (in inflatable bladders, some high tech silicon compound). that way, an extra 20 tons of cargo could be carried.

Just a thought

most peoples (that I know of) operating a far trader for a profit have long been using colapsible tanks to solve the problem of cargo space wastage by excess fuel

have fun

Selandia
 
Consider that cargo space is Cr 1,000 per ton while refined fuel goes for Cr 500 per ton. You will either have to double the cost of fuel at the destination or a commercial ship carrying fuel as cargo will go bankrupt quickly.

Government ships, such as those operated by the Imperial Navy and IISS, have no such profit requirement.

This means that systems without a convenient hydrogen source will either be the home to government bases or outposts with only a handful of people.
 
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Consider that cargo space is Cr 1,000 per ton while refined fuel goes for Cr 500 per ton. You will either have to double the cost of fuel at the destination or a commercial ship carrying fuel as cargo will go bankrupt quickly.

Government ships, such as those operated by the Imperial Navy and IISS, have no such profit requirement.

This means that systems without a convenient hydrogen source will either be the home to government bases or outposts with only a handful of people.

Guess you've never had to buy gas at "The last gas for 300 miles..." Just because the normal going rate is 500 cr a ton doesn't mean the local rate is...
 
Guess you've never had to buy gas at "The last gas for 300 miles..." Just because the normal going rate is 500 cr a ton doesn't mean the local rate is...

Just pointing out the price of the fuel must at least double for commercial purposes. This will in turn increase the operating cost of ships leaving that system. Which will increase the shipping costs from that system.

Unless that system has some highly valuable trade goods or occupies a vital spot on the star maps, it will be passed by and abandoned in short time.
 
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Just pointing out the price of the fuel must at least double for commercial purposes. This will in turn increase the operating cost of ships leaving that system. While will increase the shipping costs from that system.

Unless that system has some highly valuable trade goods or occupies a vital spot on the star maps, it will be passed by and abandoned in short time.

Fabulous Faust Vegas charges rate, with the provisio that the crew and passengers must disembark and allow FFV time to work it's wiles. Since it is in the Oort cloud, FFV is not paying jump prices to collect it and of course is making more then the difference and profiting from, er, 'human fulfillment'. Often FFV becomes a destination itself rather then a pass-through rest/fuel stop.

The per parsec cargo rate means 2000 Cr per ton per trip so it works out.
 
Unless that system has some highly valuable trade goods or occupies a vital spot on the star maps, it will be passed by and abandoned in short time.

Nonsense -- if there's a market for the trade, there's a market. The local market will adjust the prices accordingly. If a ship has to come in full and leave empty, that's gets rolled in to the prices it charges to ship stuff in.

If the people in the system aren't willing to pay the prices, then they leave. But if there's a market there, traders will fill it.
 
Actually, it is akind to today's OBO (Oil/Bulk/Ore) ships. Okay, ships'design system in Trav does not operate under the real world double constraint of weight and volume combined with comercial constraint of port fees based on net tonnage and actual floating examples would be moot. But the commercial issue is the same: how to make specialized ships with one way cargo only earning on both leg

You import ore/oil from a desert world, you have no bulk cargo to return, you can return empty or bring water. Maybe you sell water 100cr a ton and would never carry it if you had a more paying cargo, but it is thin air at 0cr or water to be purified at 100cr.

Note that fuel carrying insystem to avoid the need to make planet to refuel escape the 1000cr interstellar fee.

have fun

Selandia
 
Nonsense -- if there's a market for the trade, there's a market. The local market will adjust the prices accordingly. If a ship has to come in full and leave empty, that's gets rolled in to the prices it charges to ship stuff in.

If the people in the system aren't willing to pay the prices, then they leave. But if there's a market there, traders will fill it.

Hasn't been true on Earth. A lot of places have demand, but nothing that makes them worth stopping for, and so no one stops there, and they get no trade. A number of places in polynesia are such; despite a demand, there is nothing in the way of goods for them to trade that aren't easier obtained elsewhere. Likewise, a number of places in rural Alaska have nothing of value except for the subsidy by the federal government for native persons and the mandates of postal service).

For a market to exist, there must be something worth stopping for, and something worth bringing to exchange for it. ANd in the case of a one-way run...

A makes whoziwhatsits that B wants, and B has nothing that A wants at all, save credits, then the freighter is often better hiring a factor at B, to supervise the cargo, and simply dumping the cargo at the factor and jumping back, because the transition of a 23 day full circuit vs a 28 day circuit is often sufficient to justify the one-way deadhead.
 
If the people in the system aren't willing to pay the prices, then they leave. But if there's a market there, traders will fill it.

Hasn't been true on Earth. A lot of places have demand, but nothing that makes them worth stopping for, and so no one stops there, and they get no trade. A number of places in polynesia are such; despite a demand, there is nothing in the way of goods for them to trade that aren't easier obtained elsewhere. Likewise, a number of places in rural Alaska have nothing of value except for the subsidy by the federal government for native persons and the mandates of postal service).

For a market to exist, there must be something worth stopping for, and something worth bringing to exchange for it. ANd in the case of a one-way run...

A makes whoziwhatsits that B wants, and B has nothing that A wants at all, save credits, then the freighter is often better hiring a factor at B, to supervise the cargo, and simply dumping the cargo at the factor and jumping back, because the transition of a 23 day full circuit vs a 28 day circuit is often sufficient to justify the one-way deadhead.

The demand isn't high enough. They're not willing to pay what it costs to make it worthwhile for someone to bring them what they need. They want it, but can't pay for it.

Bringing up Alaska, recall the notoriously high prices that were charged in Alaska (and other places) during Gold Rushes, etc. High enough to make it worthwhile for vendors to show up with their wares. Even today, anecdotally, Alaska is know for high prices.

On the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, where they have to truck the water in (along with everything, and everyone, else), a soda costs as much as a beer. The prices there are substantially higher than other places in AZ (or anywhere else for that matter) solely because of its remoteness, but the tourist trade is there (with a handy, nearby natural attraction) and willing to pay the inflated prices for food and services.

There's a little gas station and convenience store in the middle of the desert with an effectively "quit bitchin about our prices we're in the middle of the desert" sign -- yet they remain open.
 
The demand isn't high enough. They're not willing to pay what it costs to make it worthwhile for someone to bring them what they need. They want it, but can't pay for it.

Bringing up Alaska, recall the notoriously high prices that were charged in Alaska (and other places) during Gold Rushes, etc. High enough to make it worthwhile for vendors to show up with their wares. Even today, anecdotally, Alaska is know for high prices.

Which, surprisingly to many, is a false assumption. Prices in the urban areas are, for durable goods, about the same as in most other urban areas, thanks to big box retailers.

Likewise, rural durable goods prices aren't actually that much worse than rural areas of Oregon.

The thing is, fresh foods are considerably higher statewide. But many places, even tho' they have money (thanks to state/federal subsidies) have no commerce because what they can offer cannot be sold for a price comparable to that from less remote locations. So, even tho' they can produce goods, they couldn't sell them if they wanted to, because they cannot compete with the volume discounts. And in some cases, what they can produce cannot be sold, period, due to state, federal, and/or international laws.

So, the local market stocks only imported durables, often retrieved by the store owner in person in the urban center nearest. Several coalitions exist to pack and ship to the bush, as well; they are almost entirely non-profits and reliant upon federal subsidies to exist - both subsidies for the shippers and for the consumers. To say that there is commerce in these villages is true, but it's actually almost entirely transactions happening in computers in data centers, resulting in product being shipped to remote sites. The actual commerce in those remote sites is, for all practical purposes, charity from the urban centers.
The shippers have little to no return traffic, and no local goods. If they have any return traffic, it's medevac passengers and college students.

The lack of reciprocal traffic means that there is almost no speculation; it's almost pure chartered–demand. That is to say, the retailer owns the goods before they go on the plane, the shipper flies on a charter basis - not scheduled traffic.

Even medevacs are charters, and usually two-way charter for each leg (to and from the urban hospital). EG: Joe in Iggagik breaks his hip. The VPSO calls for a medevac flight. Said flight leaves Anchorage, lands in Iggagik, loads Joe, flies him and his wife to Anchorage, where he is then transported from the airport to the hospital by ambulance or helo... And, after his surgery, the medevac has to fly them back to Iggagik, then deadhead back.
 
Hasn't been true on Earth. A lot of places have demand, but nothing that makes them worth stopping for, and so no one stops there, and they get no trade. A number of places in polynesia are such; despite a demand, there is nothing in the way of goods for them to trade that aren't easier obtained elsewhere. Likewise, a number of places in rural Alaska have nothing of value except for the subsidy by the federal government for native persons and the mandates of postal service).

For a market to exist, there must be something worth stopping for, and something worth bringing to exchange for it. ANd in the case of a one-way run...

A makes whoziwhatsits that B wants, and B has nothing that A wants at all, save credits, then the freighter is often better hiring a factor at B, to supervise the cargo, and simply dumping the cargo at the factor and jumping back, because the transition of a 23 day full circuit vs a 28 day circuit is often sufficient to justify the one-way deadhead.

Or alternatively a factor/speculator that charters a ship for a wide range of products to fill his warehouse for local need for essentials and luxuries, and to gouge the occasional hapless Traveller.
 
What about large ships?

IIRC, larger ships have much lower per dTon transport costs. The 1000 cr/dTon per Parasec is an Imperial regulation. Shippers make money on the delta between revenue (from cargo and passengers at regulated rates) and operating costs (not regulated). In theory a company could build a large >5000 ton fueler and use it to resupply star ports with no good in system sources of hydrogen. I believe the receiving star port would need to subsidize the cargo because fuel will effectively take up twice as much space (both inbound and outbound fuel will need to be carried).

I have always assumed, in many systems with gas giants and TL > 9, there's an refinery in orbit around the gas giant and a large number of shuttles skimming gas for it. Some systems go so far as to make the GG a closed military zone and force star ships to buy fuel.
 
mandates of postal service

perhaps the imperium mandates, via subsidy, a certain level of trade according to population. if the imperium is a trade consortium then certainly it has an interest in building up trade.
 
Ice is less dense than water by about 10%, if your limit is volume not mass, then you haul water. Also hand mining ice takes a long time and is dangerous, obviously something only a belter would do. :-)
 
Low power laser, melt it and suck it up with a hose? Just a possibly not well thought out thought.

Yes, not well thought out. Because let's all remember that as the ice melts it clarifies; and clarified ice is a lens that you are firing a laser at. What could go wrong?
 
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