Fuel Purification Plant

[Supplement Four]

How common do you think purification plants are aboard civilian craft?

My take is that most civilian vessels don't have fuel purifiers. I take this from the "tone" of Book 2. Fuel purifiers aren't listed as equipment that can be purchased and installed when designing a vessel, but fuel scoops (comes with streamlining) are.

Then, one looks at Book 5, and the "tone" changes. Fuel purifiers are there to be purchased and installed. This tells me that military vessels typically have fule purifiers and civilian vessels don't.

And, that would line-up with the Book 2 Drive Failure rules. There's even a sentence there that says, "Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it."






What's your take on this? Later rule editions of Traveller tend to take the approach that fuel purifiers are common on civilian vessels too.

Pointing at any civilian starship that happens to fall under your finger, are the odds good that the ship has a purifier? IMTU, of course, they aren't. Unless I, as GM, deem differently, a civilian ship will not have a fuel purifier.

But, why is that? Going by Book 5, purifiers aren't that expensive. Why wouldn't they be common equipment on a starship--especially a merchant vessel with thin margins? Surely, the purifier will more than make up for its costs after several jumps (at 400-500 credits per ton cost savings!).

So, why wouldn't they be common to civilian vessels?

 

[Supplement Four]

How common do you think purification plants are aboard civilian craft?

My take is that most civilian vessels don't have fuel purifiers. I take this from the "tone" of Book 2. Fuel purifiers aren't listed as equipment that can be purchased and installed when designing a vessel, but fuel scoops (comes with streamlining) are.

Then, one looks at Book 5, and the "tone" changes. Fuel purifiers are there to be purchased and installed. This tells me that military vessels typically have fule purifiers and civilian vessels don't.

And, that would line-up with the Book 2 Drive Failure rules. There's even a sentence there that says, "Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it."






What's your take on this? Later rule editions of Traveller tend to take the approach that fuel purifiers are common on civilian vessels too.

Pointing at any civilian starship that happens to fall under your finger, are the odds good that the ship has a purifier? IMTU, of course, they aren't. Unless I, as GM, deem differently, a civilian ship will not have a fuel purifier.

But, why is that? Going by Book 5, purifiers aren't that expensive. Why wouldn't they be common equipment on a starship--especially a merchant vessel with thin margins? Surely, the purifier will more than make up for its costs after several jumps (at 400-500 credits per ton cost savings!).

So, why wouldn't they be common to civilian vessels?

 

[Prospero]

Perhaps the LLB2 vs LBB5 thing is just chronological. That is, MM though a bit more about it by the time of LBB5, so he included it.

The value of the purifier would probably depend on how the merchant works. For example, the time lost to scooping and purifying fuel might outweigh the cost of buying refined fuel in port while working out deals and loading/offloading cargo. If the merchant is mostly going back and forth between settled worlds with good starports, it might not bother to purify its own fuel. I would expect that big ships would not have the purifiers, while smaller more adventurous types might.


Just a thought.

 

[Prospero]

Perhaps the LLB2 vs LBB5 thing is just chronological. That is, MM though a bit more about it by the time of LBB5, so he included it.

The value of the purifier would probably depend on how the merchant works. For example, the time lost to scooping and purifying fuel might outweigh the cost of buying refined fuel in port while working out deals and loading/offloading cargo. If the merchant is mostly going back and forth between settled worlds with good starports, it might not bother to purify its own fuel. I would expect that big ships would not have the purifiers, while smaller more adventurous types might.


Just a thought.

 

[Roger Calver]

This type of discussion is also ongoing over on TAS if people are interested.
http://traveller.comstar-games.com/viewtopic.php?t=1118

 

[Roger Calver]

This type of discussion is also ongoing over on TAS if people are interested.
http://traveller.comstar-games.com/viewtopic.php?t=1118

 

[flykiller]

So, why wouldn't they be common to civilian vessels?

a tech 12 purifier takes up six dtons. that's a lot of cargo space on a small ship.

'course, not having one restricts ports of call exclusively to those that are C and above. this may or may not limit the ship's profitability - it certainly limits independent operation.

 

[flykiller]

So, why wouldn't they be common to civilian vessels?

a tech 12 purifier takes up six dtons. that's a lot of cargo space on a small ship.

'course, not having one restricts ports of call exclusively to those that are C and above. this may or may not limit the ship's profitability - it certainly limits independent operation.

 

[far-trader]

Skimming gas giants doesn't pay, it takes far too long in most cases if you go by the rules (1 week extra travel time). That's if you ignore the fact that it should be so dangerous that commercial ships shouldn't be allowed to skim gas giants except in extreme circumstances.

Dipping on the mainworld does pay, if it's allowed or at least not disallowed. But I think any system with a decent starport (A and B at least, maybe even C and D) is going to disallow it simply on financial grounds so they can sell you fuel. But I'd probably at least roll a check vs the Hyd to see if it's allowed and possible.

Purifiers pay for themselves counting the space as lost revenue even if you simply buy unrefined fuel at the starport if you compare the savings over buying refined fuel. I think the TL break for profitability is 11-12 for a type A iirc. So depending on how you rule starship construction will determine which ships have or have not.

Personally I don't think commercial ships should be allowed to operate with unrefined fuel for safety reasons. But then maybe that is why the trade tables are so limited, they represent the truly desperate who are willing to trust their lives to that 1 in 36 gamble on some cost cutting free-trader.

 

[far-trader]

Skimming gas giants doesn't pay, it takes far too long in most cases if you go by the rules (1 week extra travel time). That's if you ignore the fact that it should be so dangerous that commercial ships shouldn't be allowed to skim gas giants except in extreme circumstances.

Dipping on the mainworld does pay, if it's allowed or at least not disallowed. But I think any system with a decent starport (A and B at least, maybe even C and D) is going to disallow it simply on financial grounds so they can sell you fuel. But I'd probably at least roll a check vs the Hyd to see if it's allowed and possible.

Purifiers pay for themselves counting the space as lost revenue even if you simply buy unrefined fuel at the starport if you compare the savings over buying refined fuel. I think the TL break for profitability is 11-12 for a type A iirc. So depending on how you rule starship construction will determine which ships have or have not.

Personally I don't think commercial ships should be allowed to operate with unrefined fuel for safety reasons. But then maybe that is why the trade tables are so limited, they represent the truly desperate who are willing to trust their lives to that 1 in 36 gamble on some cost cutting free-trader.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Skimming gas giants doesn't pay, it takes far too long in most cases if you go by the rules (1 week extra travel time).

It does? I thought it only mentioned that it takes 8 hours to skim from a GG. I don't recall the extra week.

It seems non-canonical, but I tend to agree that GG skimming is a rough venture. That could very well be the reason why commercial ships don't have fuel purifiers.

In the past, I've had the Navigator make a roll for his predicted path through the GG's upper atmo, and then I've used that roll as a number the pilot must roll under in order not to have an "incident" while refuelling. I typically wouldn't kill anybody, but I'd knock some important antenna off the hull if the pilot flunked the roll. Or, sometimes I'd roll on the starship damage chart and see what was effected. I liked that the higher the nav's roll, the easier it was for the pilot. That seemed to make sense to me.

But, I say this really isn't "canonical" because Book 2, when it states it takes about 8 hours to refuel, could easily have listed a throw or two for damage to the ship. Heck, they do this with unrefined fuel and awaking low berth passengers. There could be an easy little roll like that listed for GG refueling too.

But...I like the idea that flying through the dangerous ettys of a Gas Giant is a dangerous proposition. Civilian vessels certainly want to do this with passengers aboard--they'd scare them to death. "What's that shaking, daddy! Make it stop!"

Military vessels, on the other hand, will have pilots that are trained for that particular type of thing. That's what they do.

So, if not canonical, it certainly makes some sense.

Wilderness refueling on a world has to come with its own problems and dangers as well. Maneuvering underwater, though possible, has got to be dangerous for a ship designed to float in space. Ship's sensors aren't made for close-up detection of the sea-bottom. They're made to detect drives on ships 150,000 km out.

It just seems like to me that wilderness refueling, whether at a GG or on a planet is not impossible, for a pilot and crew skilled enough. But, it's not recommended. And, it's a sure way to cost yourself hundreds of credits in repairs real fast...or damage something that might prove fatal during space flight down the road.

Thus, most civilian ships don't have the processors, but there's no law making it illegal to have them.

Maybe the guys who do have processors on thier ships are the "Millennium Falcon's" of the shipyard. Those are the crazy guys. "Hey, did ya see? The ADROIT PURSUT's got a purifier. Think that dude's crazy enough to dive into atmo of a gas giant?"

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Skimming gas giants doesn't pay, it takes far too long in most cases if you go by the rules (1 week extra travel time).

It does? I thought it only mentioned that it takes 8 hours to skim from a GG. I don't recall the extra week.

It seems non-canonical, but I tend to agree that GG skimming is a rough venture. That could very well be the reason why commercial ships don't have fuel purifiers.

In the past, I've had the Navigator make a roll for his predicted path through the GG's upper atmo, and then I've used that roll as a number the pilot must roll under in order not to have an "incident" while refuelling. I typically wouldn't kill anybody, but I'd knock some important antenna off the hull if the pilot flunked the roll. Or, sometimes I'd roll on the starship damage chart and see what was effected. I liked that the higher the nav's roll, the easier it was for the pilot. That seemed to make sense to me.

But, I say this really isn't "canonical" because Book 2, when it states it takes about 8 hours to refuel, could easily have listed a throw or two for damage to the ship. Heck, they do this with unrefined fuel and awaking low berth passengers. There could be an easy little roll like that listed for GG refueling too.

But...I like the idea that flying through the dangerous ettys of a Gas Giant is a dangerous proposition. Civilian vessels certainly want to do this with passengers aboard--they'd scare them to death. "What's that shaking, daddy! Make it stop!"

Military vessels, on the other hand, will have pilots that are trained for that particular type of thing. That's what they do.

So, if not canonical, it certainly makes some sense.

Wilderness refueling on a world has to come with its own problems and dangers as well. Maneuvering underwater, though possible, has got to be dangerous for a ship designed to float in space. Ship's sensors aren't made for close-up detection of the sea-bottom. They're made to detect drives on ships 150,000 km out.

It just seems like to me that wilderness refueling, whether at a GG or on a planet is not impossible, for a pilot and crew skilled enough. But, it's not recommended. And, it's a sure way to cost yourself hundreds of credits in repairs real fast...or damage something that might prove fatal during space flight down the road.

Thus, most civilian ships don't have the processors, but there's no law making it illegal to have them.

Maybe the guys who do have processors on thier ships are the "Millennium Falcon's" of the shipyard. Those are the crazy guys. "Hey, did ya see? The ADROIT PURSUT's got a purifier. Think that dude's crazy enough to dive into atmo of a gas giant?"

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Skimming gas giants doesn't pay, it takes far too long in most cases if you go by the rules (1 week extra travel time).

It does? I thought it only mentioned that it takes 8 hours to skim from a GG. I don't recall the extra week.</font>[/QUOTE]The week to slog between the GG and the mainworld at 1G

I don't hold with mainworlds being anywhere but in the habitable zone and GG being in a far orbit

The rest or your post pretty much sums up my take on the whole thing too. The only thing you missed is the extreme radiation of GGs. That should be a hazard in itself, but it's easy to weave one more "magic" tech babble into Traveller ships to cover that

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Skimming gas giants doesn't pay, it takes far too long in most cases if you go by the rules (1 week extra travel time).

It does? I thought it only mentioned that it takes 8 hours to skim from a GG. I don't recall the extra week.</font>[/QUOTE]The week to slog between the GG and the mainworld at 1G

I don't hold with mainworlds being anywhere but in the habitable zone and GG being in a far orbit

The rest or your post pretty much sums up my take on the whole thing too. The only thing you missed is the extreme radiation of GGs. That should be a hazard in itself, but it's easy to weave one more "magic" tech babble into Traveller ships to cover that

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Skimming gas giants doesn't pay, it takes far too long in most cases if you go by the rules (1 week extra travel time). That's if you ignore the fact that it should be so dangerous that commercial ships shouldn't be allowed to skim gas giants except in extreme circumstances.

...

Personally I don't think commercial ships should be allowed to operate with unrefined fuel for safety reasons. But then maybe that is why the trade tables are so limited, they represent the truly desperate who are willing to trust their lives to that 1 in 36 gamble on some cost cutting free-trader.

Excellent points. I think you've articulated the 2 best reasons to prohibit unrefined fuel on civilian ships.

If it takes an extra week (I honestly can't recall reading that, but I'm sure you're right), then this means that starships will average 1/3 fewer jumps (assuming an average of 2 weeks per normal jump). That's a pretty serious cut in revenue.

But if a ship misjumps one time in 36, that means it has nearly a 40% chance of misjumping in a year of operations (assuming 1 jump per 3 weeks). And if you misjump into an empty hex, that's pretty much a death sentence, isn't it? (Assuming you don't have an extra jump's worth of fuel). The odds of a misjump into an empty hex could be as high as 2/3 (if sparsely populated).

I seriously doubt any government would allow common carriers to take such risks.

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Skimming gas giants doesn't pay, it takes far too long in most cases if you go by the rules (1 week extra travel time). That's if you ignore the fact that it should be so dangerous that commercial ships shouldn't be allowed to skim gas giants except in extreme circumstances.

...

Personally I don't think commercial ships should be allowed to operate with unrefined fuel for safety reasons. But then maybe that is why the trade tables are so limited, they represent the truly desperate who are willing to trust their lives to that 1 in 36 gamble on some cost cutting free-trader.

Excellent points. I think you've articulated the 2 best reasons to prohibit unrefined fuel on civilian ships.

If it takes an extra week (I honestly can't recall reading that, but I'm sure you're right), then this means that starships will average 1/3 fewer jumps (assuming an average of 2 weeks per normal jump). That's a pretty serious cut in revenue.

But if a ship misjumps one time in 36, that means it has nearly a 40% chance of misjumping in a year of operations (assuming 1 jump per 3 weeks). And if you misjump into an empty hex, that's pretty much a death sentence, isn't it? (Assuming you don't have an extra jump's worth of fuel). The odds of a misjump into an empty hex could be as high as 2/3 (if sparsely populated).

I seriously doubt any government would allow common carriers to take such risks.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by tbeard1999:
I seriously doubt any government would allow common carriers to take such risks.

I think I'll keep it legal but "highly unadvisable" in my game, eventhough you're right about the minimum 3% chance of a misjump event per jump.

My player's ship has a fuel processor. The player playing the captain insisted on it. It's an old hand-me-down Tukera vessel anyway. It's established "history" in the game makes sense that the ship would have one. The ship was used by Tukera as a precursor to their creation of Akerut lines. Once Akerut was created to service the subsector, Tukera sold off these old traders to indie merchantment. The captain before the ship's current captain bought one from Tukera. And, now, the current captain has taken over the payments.

The thing's a Type A2, and it's a bitch to make a dime with that ship anyway. It needs to cut the cost of fuel.

Given the ship's history, it doesn't carry that many passengers anyway. It holds a subsidy from Tukera to service just four worlds in the Aramis subsector. Tukera gets monies from the Imperium for this, so it works out financially for Tukera, and the Imperial program ensures trade along the frontier.

Going back to you point of it being illegal, though...that could be even more fun. Because if a ship attempts to skim, it's breaking the law.

And, that sounds like adventure to me.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by tbeard1999:
I seriously doubt any government would allow common carriers to take such risks.

I think I'll keep it legal but "highly unadvisable" in my game, eventhough you're right about the minimum 3% chance of a misjump event per jump.

My player's ship has a fuel processor. The player playing the captain insisted on it. It's an old hand-me-down Tukera vessel anyway. It's established "history" in the game makes sense that the ship would have one. The ship was used by Tukera as a precursor to their creation of Akerut lines. Once Akerut was created to service the subsector, Tukera sold off these old traders to indie merchantment. The captain before the ship's current captain bought one from Tukera. And, now, the current captain has taken over the payments.

The thing's a Type A2, and it's a bitch to make a dime with that ship anyway. It needs to cut the cost of fuel.

Given the ship's history, it doesn't carry that many passengers anyway. It holds a subsidy from Tukera to service just four worlds in the Aramis subsector. Tukera gets monies from the Imperium for this, so it works out financially for Tukera, and the Imperial program ensures trade along the frontier.

Going back to you point of it being illegal, though...that could be even more fun. Because if a ship attempts to skim, it's breaking the law.

And, that sounds like adventure to me.

 

[BlackBat242]

Well, one way to look at the issue is to look at the drive sizes in book 2 and compare them to an "optimized" drive by book 5 rules.

The book 2 drive will be much larger.

I always took this to indicate that book 2 drives included a fuel purification section as part of the factory-produced drive.

This purifier is sized for that model drive, making them more volume-efficient than the "stand-alone" purifier found in book 5.

 

[BlackBat242]

Well, one way to look at the issue is to look at the drive sizes in book 2 and compare them to an "optimized" drive by book 5 rules.

The book 2 drive will be much larger.

I always took this to indicate that book 2 drives included a fuel purification section as part of the factory-produced drive.

This purifier is sized for that model drive, making them more volume-efficient than the "stand-alone" purifier found in book 5.