Full auto weapons, and Rates of Fire.
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
And perhaps more the reason for the big laser weapon backpacks. Not so much power for the beam but coolants to keep the thing from melting down in vacuum use. How hot would a weapon grade laser weapon get?
Slightly off topic but
Even long sustained fire, ie not firing as fast as you can, but continuely firing quickly over a long period of time can over heat a barrel too.
When I use to do .50 M2 training we would change out the barrels after 500 rounds (training recurits). These were already used barrels (ie their life expectancy was 50% or less) so they could not take as much fire heat as well taken care of barrels or new barrels.
Some times due to issues on the training firing line, M2 would go down (some times they were made to go down by the trainer who was tired of running recurits through their position and we had to keep going. Training dead lines and such.
During these times I and my other 2 Sgt buddies would do hot swaps on barrels. We would run (allow firing) of the M2 with a barrel until it started glowing or smoking, then swap it out for another. On one of our training days, a new Lt and his new armour Cpl, who did not know much, brought us the wrong barrels. They were already trashed (over heated and some even still had seperated casings still in the chamber.
But due to training schedules and such we could not wait until the correct barrels were brought up to the range so we had to start the live fire.
Some of these over heated (deadline) barrels only took 200+ round before they smoked, started to get a slight red color or even drooped some.
(not going into the long story of it but) one time we had to quickly finish up the training of the recurits so we lengthen the time between barrel changes (due to large numbers of individuals we had to fire. This was due to an order from the current Range Officer (Captain). When the barrel started to turn red, was only when we could change out barrels.
Well being short enough barrels per M2, as the day went on, we were having to place warm to hot barrels on the M2, ie they were not allowed enough cool down time.
By the end of the day (along with some politics between a Col and the Range Capt) M2 were starting to malfunction due to the amount of heat the main body was retaining now.
We got down to 2 functioning M2 and no cold barrels and 40 recurits still pump through in less than 1 hour.
Some of the barrels were getting so hot that at one point, my Cpl who was trying to take out a barrel, his abestes gloves started smoking.
About this time the other M2 went down because the bright Range Control Captain decided to order that water should be poured on the weapon and barrel to cool it down like they did in WW2. My senior Sgt (who was in charge of that M2) said NO. So the Captain order him off the weapon and told the Lt and armor to do it. They did and the the entire weapon was ruined (considered destroyed by Military standards).
That left my M2 with 10 recurits to go and 30 minutes to do it. I told the Cpl to get off the track (vehicle mounted M2) and make sure that each recurit wore a flank vest and riot shield visor (which we kept in our vehicles as part of our TO&E). I took the least hotest barrel & straightes barrel and mounted on. Each recurit had 100 rds of .50. By the 5 one the barrel was red, by the 6 or 7th (can remeber which) it was a runaway fire after the first shot, by the 8 individual the barrel was glowing and with the last 100 rds the barrel was turning white. Several of us swore that you could see the bullet traveling down the barrel on those last rounds.
With in 5 minutes or less of the last rounds fired though it, it was very clear that the barrel was drooping. If you fired a round through it you would have hit your own vehicle, if the round would go through it at all.
You see once a barrel has been heated too much, it loses it's needed temper and you just don't get those back. It's scrap.
(on a side note) when I got back to the motor pool, and was about to leave, the MSG of the pool came over and chewed us out. It turns out that the hot barrels we were placing on the vehicle to cool charred some of the paint and in one vehicle had cracked the case on a light housing.
Dave Chase
Even long sustained fire, ie not firing as fast as you can, but continuely firing quickly over a long period of time can over heat a barrel too.
When I use to do .50 M2 training we would change out the barrels after 500 rounds (training recurits). These were already used barrels (ie their life expectancy was 50% or less) so they could not take as much fire heat as well taken care of barrels or new barrels.
Some times due to issues on the training firing line, M2 would go down (some times they were made to go down by the trainer who was tired of running recurits through their position and we had to keep going. Training dead lines and such.
During these times I and my other 2 Sgt buddies would do hot swaps on barrels. We would run (allow firing) of the M2 with a barrel until it started glowing or smoking, then swap it out for another. On one of our training days, a new Lt and his new armour Cpl, who did not know much, brought us the wrong barrels. They were already trashed (over heated and some even still had seperated casings still in the chamber.
But due to training schedules and such we could not wait until the correct barrels were brought up to the range so we had to start the live fire.
Some of these over heated (deadline) barrels only took 200+ round before they smoked, started to get a slight red color or even drooped some.
(not going into the long story of it but) one time we had to quickly finish up the training of the recurits so we lengthen the time between barrel changes (due to large numbers of individuals we had to fire. This was due to an order from the current Range Officer (Captain). When the barrel started to turn red, was only when we could change out barrels.
Well being short enough barrels per M2, as the day went on, we were having to place warm to hot barrels on the M2, ie they were not allowed enough cool down time.
By the end of the day (along with some politics between a Col and the Range Capt) M2 were starting to malfunction due to the amount of heat the main body was retaining now.
We got down to 2 functioning M2 and no cold barrels and 40 recurits still pump through in less than 1 hour.
Some of the barrels were getting so hot that at one point, my Cpl who was trying to take out a barrel, his abestes gloves started smoking.
About this time the other M2 went down because the bright Range Control Captain decided to order that water should be poured on the weapon and barrel to cool it down like they did in WW2. My senior Sgt (who was in charge of that M2) said NO. So the Captain order him off the weapon and told the Lt and armor to do it. They did and the the entire weapon was ruined (considered destroyed by Military standards).
That left my M2 with 10 recurits to go and 30 minutes to do it. I told the Cpl to get off the track (vehicle mounted M2) and make sure that each recurit wore a flank vest and riot shield visor (which we kept in our vehicles as part of our TO&E). I took the least hotest barrel & straightes barrel and mounted on. Each recurit had 100 rds of .50. By the 5 one the barrel was red, by the 6 or 7th (can remeber which) it was a runaway fire after the first shot, by the 8 individual the barrel was glowing and with the last 100 rds the barrel was turning white. Several of us swore that you could see the bullet traveling down the barrel on those last rounds.
With in 5 minutes or less of the last rounds fired though it, it was very clear that the barrel was drooping. If you fired a round through it you would have hit your own vehicle, if the round would go through it at all.
You see once a barrel has been heated too much, it loses it's needed temper and you just don't get those back. It's scrap.
(on a side note) when I got back to the motor pool, and was about to leave, the MSG of the pool came over and chewed us out. It turns out that the hot barrels we were placing on the vehicle to cool charred some of the paint and in one vehicle had cracked the case on a light housing.
Dave Chase
Good point! Even when not in vacuum it might not be a bad idea to have some nitrogen to shoot down the barrel and through the collimator to cool it down after each shot. Ambient temp in atmosphere is going to have as much of an effect as vacuum, maybe more depending.
I dunno how hot it would get but considering that the rifle pack is good for 100 shots that could be pumped out over 16 minutes of steady fire you could probably toast a few marshmallows over the barrel.
To reconcile with Travaller ROFs, imagine each "shot" as a burst instead.
When a full-auto weapon is fired, you are taught to fire short bursts, not just hold down the trigger. Due to stress and poor training, that is why many assault rifles now have a 3-round burst option instead of full auto. The weapon fires the bursts for you. You don't have to remember to let off. When being taught to fire larger belt-fed weapons, I recall being told to fire "6 to 9 round bursts".
So, each shot with auto weapons could be considered a burst of several bullets. Without opening an old Traveller book I don't recall what this does to ammo capacities. If you go with bursts, you may have to cut down on ammo capacities. For example, a machinegun with a 100-round belt might actually be able to fire 20 5-shot bursts.
More complexity, but perhaps give a +1 DM when firing bursts to account for the extra bullets down range, but only when firing controlled bursts. Uncontrolled firing with the trigger held down for quite some time should only work for suppressive fire (which gives -DMs to opponents' actions?).
When a full-auto weapon is fired, you are taught to fire short bursts, not just hold down the trigger. Due to stress and poor training, that is why many assault rifles now have a 3-round burst option instead of full auto. The weapon fires the bursts for you. You don't have to remember to let off. When being taught to fire larger belt-fed weapons, I recall being told to fire "6 to 9 round bursts".
So, each shot with auto weapons could be considered a burst of several bullets. Without opening an old Traveller book I don't recall what this does to ammo capacities. If you go with bursts, you may have to cut down on ammo capacities. For example, a machinegun with a 100-round belt might actually be able to fire 20 5-shot bursts.
More complexity, but perhaps give a +1 DM when firing bursts to account for the extra bullets down range, but only when firing controlled bursts. Uncontrolled firing with the trigger held down for quite some time should only work for suppressive fire (which gives -DMs to opponents' actions?).
Burst fire is already included in both the positive DM's for autofire weapons and the group hits rule (pg. 42, LBB1).
Panic fire is on page 32 of LBB4 (Mercenary) and is close to what Blue Ghost was wondering about I think.
"Suppression" fire could be modeled by using panic fire to activate it and adding the same negative DM the firing player has from using it to the opposing side's chances to hit during the same round. So basically one guy will be standing there screaming and blasting away with his gun while the opposing guys are diving for cover while trying to shoot back. For either side to hit anyone ends up being a "Hail-Mary" but it scares everyone silly and makes it easier for the side trying to escape or get to cover while the bad guys have their heads down. If anyone actually gets hit I would include a morale check to make sure that once the dust cleared everyone still has any will to combat left.
Or....you could just require that the magazine be emptied and the shooter has one chance to hit at -4DM as allowed for the weapon type at its highest setting (so a guass rifle would get 3 chances to hit at -4DM each) and the opposing side is automatically required to make a morale check. If they fail it (and don't run away or surrender) they lose a round of return fire since they are considered to be trying to make themselves very, very small while the rounds fly. That would give the advantage to the more experienced side and allow for the side using the suppression fire to gain time to escape or gain cover themselves.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Just make the components for it out of some ceramic material instead of metal. Then it could get incredibly hot and remain perfectly workable. Unlike a weapon using an explosive charge where you have shock to worry about here it is simply heat. Ceramics would be a great choice.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You still want to be able to hold it, rest it, perhaps sling or holster it without being burned or setting other materials on fire 
Cooling it in a reasonably short amount of time is still a good idea for a personal weapon. A little less so for a vehicle mounted one.
Cooling it in a reasonably short amount of time is still a good idea for a personal weapon. A little less so for a vehicle mounted one.Interesting, I am thinking about similar stuff in a game of Twilight:2000 I am running for my son and his pals this summer. I'm using v2 rules, in which autofire has an interesting mechanic.
I am relieved to learn that auto fire is inaccurate beyond short ranges, as the ammo-soaking involved in ranged or sustained fire seemed unbelievably high to me. So, I guess I won't invest my time in trying to write new rules or adapt others from other games.
I am relieved to learn that auto fire is inaccurate beyond short ranges, as the ammo-soaking involved in ranged or sustained fire seemed unbelievably high to me. So, I guess I won't invest my time in trying to write new rules or adapt others from other games.
Well, it's inaccurate with handheld weapons....but with emplaced machineguns of the LMG (and up) varieties it can be highly accurate - or at least they seem that way because they are A) designed and built to lay down high rates of fire and braced/heavy enough to not have muzzle climb affect the aim, and B) have a large ammunition capacity so they can lay down concentrated fire and sustain it for longer periods than some guy having to swap out mags every 4 seconds.
The caveat with the machineguns, though, is that they if they are not crew-served then they take longer to load and this leaves them vulnerable to counter-assault. A crew-served weapon can have the belts linked as they run out so the gun can (within the limits of its design) stay in the fight.
I believe the rules for all that are in LBB 4 (Mercenary) and possibly in Striker.
There is a Heavy machine Gun in JTAS #9 that has an interesting rule about sustained fire: you can fire the gun up to five bursts a round, but if (in the air-cooled version) you fire more than 3 times in a round it may jam, but with a water jacket there is a -3DM applied to the chance to jam so you can fire more rounds per turn.
The caveat with the machineguns, though, is that they if they are not crew-served then they take longer to load and this leaves them vulnerable to counter-assault. A crew-served weapon can have the belts linked as they run out so the gun can (within the limits of its design) stay in the fight.
I believe the rules for all that are in LBB 4 (Mercenary) and possibly in Striker.
There is a Heavy machine Gun in JTAS #9 that has an interesting rule about sustained fire: you can fire the gun up to five bursts a round, but if (in the air-cooled version) you fire more than 3 times in a round it may jam, but with a water jacket there is a -3DM applied to the chance to jam so you can fire more rounds per turn.
Garyius2003
SOC-13
My time shooting automatic fire shoulder fired weapons is limited to M16A1 and A2, M60 (including E3 version), and some fun times with MP5s and Krinks.
Unless fired from the tripod, the M60 moves off the target area after 5-10 rounds. Because of the lower rate of fire, this limit is easily fired by a trained shooter. I have had some talks with younger vets, and they said the 240B is much the same, but with the rails a vertical fore grip can be attached to the side to get a few more rounds out before you move totally out of the target area.
The A1 and A2 will also kick up and to the right after a few rounds, so the military went with a three round per pull auto setting for the A2. The A1 can be kept in the general target area on a mag dump by an experienced shooter, but without a great deal of accuracy.
The Krinkov is just a hose on full auto, squirming around and kicking.
The MP5 is very controllable on full auto and 5-round burst, in particular the navy version with the suppressor. I do not have the level of skill, but a good shooter can hold on a head and torso sized target at 25 meters for a mag dump. I come close without the skill level because the gun is so controllable.
So, I assume in the 3I universe the rifles and light MGs will be tweaked to stay an target easier, and will have some sort of burst setting at their limits of shoulder accuracy in addition to suppressive fire volume settings.
Side note: I shot a thompson once--heavier than a garand, but held on target as easy as an MP5. I can see why they were respected.
Unless fired from the tripod, the M60 moves off the target area after 5-10 rounds. Because of the lower rate of fire, this limit is easily fired by a trained shooter. I have had some talks with younger vets, and they said the 240B is much the same, but with the rails a vertical fore grip can be attached to the side to get a few more rounds out before you move totally out of the target area.
The A1 and A2 will also kick up and to the right after a few rounds, so the military went with a three round per pull auto setting for the A2. The A1 can be kept in the general target area on a mag dump by an experienced shooter, but without a great deal of accuracy.
The Krinkov is just a hose on full auto, squirming around and kicking.
The MP5 is very controllable on full auto and 5-round burst, in particular the navy version with the suppressor. I do not have the level of skill, but a good shooter can hold on a head and torso sized target at 25 meters for a mag dump. I come close without the skill level because the gun is so controllable.
So, I assume in the 3I universe the rifles and light MGs will be tweaked to stay an target easier, and will have some sort of burst setting at their limits of shoulder accuracy in addition to suppressive fire volume settings.
Side note: I shot a thompson once--heavier than a garand, but held on target as easy as an MP5. I can see why they were respected.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Good point of interest there btw. I've read that a suppressor can be an effective counter to full-auto wander and aid greatly in controlling the weapon. I think I even included it in some house rules at one point...
...now everybody will want a suppressor
...and the ref should include some penetration, range, and damage negatives for the suppressor lowering the muzzle velocity of course
...so that not everybody will want a suppressor all the time
Oh yes, and the Thompson, easier to handle perhaps because of the weight, yet another factor in recoil control
Riik O'Shae
SOC-11
Oh yes, and the Thompson, easier to handle perhaps because of the weight, yet another factor in recoil control
And a slower rate of fire ~ 450 RPM's.
My former spouse has an uncle who was one of 100 Agents who scored 100% firing a Thompson ~ including 20 rounds at full auto.
Riik
Factors effecting full-auto fire are; the recoil energy of the round/firearm combination, the time between rounds fired (do the bullets cycle through so fast that the nth round is fired before the recoil of the first round has full effect?), or does gravity have time to help pull the gun back down between shots?
Generally you would want a high rate of fire to engage with shotgun like blasts of bullets while you would want a low rate of fire in order to sweep broad swaths which is how the old water-cooled mgs worked.
True machineguns use their weight and mechanical mounting to suppress recoil and return the gun to its pre-firing point of aim. However, recoil and limits to barrel accuracy help spread the burst into a "cone of fire" which is what gives the machinegun its threat to more than one person at a time. In the past certain designs proved "too accurate" at combat ranges and fired a stream of bullets into what amounted to a single hole.
Generally you would want a high rate of fire to engage with shotgun like blasts of bullets while you would want a low rate of fire in order to sweep broad swaths which is how the old water-cooled mgs worked.
True machineguns use their weight and mechanical mounting to suppress recoil and return the gun to its pre-firing point of aim. However, recoil and limits to barrel accuracy help spread the burst into a "cone of fire" which is what gives the machinegun its threat to more than one person at a time. In the past certain designs proved "too accurate" at combat ranges and fired a stream of bullets into what amounted to a single hole.
Striker was a bit more liberal with this. For the most part it assumed that you were firing multiple shots. Semi-auto you used half a magazine, full auto you used the whole magazine. If you made your roll by 2 or more you go an extra hit for every two you make the roll by.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
The easiest fix in terms of the game on this is simply to impose ammunition limits on players. This could be as easy as every automatic burst from a weapon removes 1/3rd, 1/4, etc., of the ammunition in a magazine and you have X magazines available.
The player will quickly realize that it's pretty stupid to blow through all your ammo in automatic when you get nearly unlimited fire on single shot or semi-auto.
The player will quickly realize that it's pretty stupid to blow through all your ammo in automatic when you get nearly unlimited fire on single shot or semi-auto.
I came up with kind of an interesting rule for ammo use.
For burst or auto type situations, you divide the rounds used by the skill of the shooter.
So a Auto-1 uses a whole clip, Auto-2 uses 1/2 of the clip, Auto-3 uses 1/3 at a time, and Auto-4 uses 1/4, etc.
Idea being the more experienced shooters will have fire discipline and get the same job done.
For burst or auto type situations, you divide the rounds used by the skill of the shooter.
So a Auto-1 uses a whole clip, Auto-2 uses 1/2 of the clip, Auto-3 uses 1/3 at a time, and Auto-4 uses 1/4, etc.
Idea being the more experienced shooters will have fire discipline and get the same job done.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I am nasty. The players have to keep track of ammunition expenditure. They learn not to use full auto, after being out of ammo a couple of times.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I insist on ammo tracking too. I'm not a fan of games that abstract this.
Imagine going up against the Chamax horde and not knowing exactly how many shotgun shells you have...
Imagine going up against the Chamax horde and not knowing exactly how many shotgun shells you have...
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Yeah, but that ignores the type of round and size of the mag. For example, it's really easy to burn through 30 rounds with a 5.56 or similar low recoil ammo. With an AK47 or the like you can do it, but before the end of the mag the barrel is flailing a bit. Try doing that with the far more powerful 30-06 BAR, or even the .308 M14. It just ain't gonna happen unless in full panic.
Second is the size of the mag. Larger mags are going to be less likely to burn through. The M16 uses a 30 round mag that's fairly compact. The P90 has a 50 round mag. For 7.62 the 30 round mags are a bit unwieldy, and 20 rounds is more common.
Third, I'd note that for basic CT one doesn't ordinarily get above 2 ranks unless it's a goal, and 1 rank is fully competent. At AR-2 you'd be an expert. Not necessarily a marksman, but extremely well trained in use. Maybe that is different for other versions.
