Full auto weapons, and Rates of Fire.

[kilemall]

With LBB-4, pretty easy to get up there Skill-3 with a specific weapon. Depends on the bloatyness of each system. Eh, just an idea, I don't know that I would actually bother with it. Like most old school refs, I grow and shed rule subsystems like a snake sheds skin.


Alright, here's a thought- by the time we get to at least TL8-9 guns, we are in the space exploitation phase and current exotica like iridium could be more commonplace. We have to assume materials technology has advanced too.
So handling heat, both not melting and radiating, would be more advanced.
I would postulate that for our final iterations of slug throwing, these technologies kick in as a factor and enable them.


The items that catch my eye is the VRF Gauss Gun, typically at TL10, the various related mass drivers, and then the miniaturized versions with the Gauss Rifle/Pistols at TL12/13.
I am thinking maybe higher ROF at TL11 for ACRs too.

Interesting question, is heat an issue for handheld laser weaponry, and assuming you could solve the power problem would it be even more an issue for autolasers?

 

[hiro]

Interesting question, is heat an issue for handheld laser weaponry, and assuming you could solve the power problem would it be even more an issue for autolasers?

It depends on the efficiency of the weapon. A laser, or any weapon for that matter, is converting one form of energy into another. If it's less than 100% efficient, which until you get to uber tech levels they all are, some energy is going to be converted to heat. How much, how it's managed and what the repercussions are is for a game system to lay out.

ETA: Pre T5, I'm pretty sure Traveller hasn't modeled any of this. T5 I am not sure about as I don't know it well at all. If I were to attempt to model it, I'd start from the reliability angle and things like sustained automatic fire, have a detrimental affect on reliability. Some weapons will be designed for this and it won't be an issue, others, like your bog standard TL7 assault rifle, might suffer somewhat. That said, it's an awful lot of work and will likely impede game flow to the extent that it's not worth the effort.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I think mike has addressed the rate of fire issue pretty well in earlier posts.

The application of higher rates of fire is purely would be for fire suppression to allow other elements to maneuver and “neutralize” opposition. With regards to ACR’s the concept would still hold. Really there isn’t any benefit to very high rates of fire for individual weapons, unless you want to dump weight. I encountered more feeding issues because of heating, and that is a killer in a small arms fight, you don’t want to pause to keep performing SPORTS.

In ship board combat I would really discourage spraying projectiles for obvious reasons. Speed, shock and surprise are the force multipliers to capatilize on in the “gun play” in traveller. Single well placed shots, probably reflecting the Skill level 2 and 3 in CT are much more effective. Training, good terrain use and fire discipline are things that should be considered.

Someone made mention of 7 x30 round mag loads, I would offer that 90% of the 11 series guys usually rock 8-12 30 round mags... Also the Tier 1 shooters had one in depth conversation (CQB House at Benning) to the risk benefit of carrying lighter combat loads. There is always a trade off weight vs the ability to sustain fire.

With the american military beginning to return to larger caliber rounds 6.5 and 6.8 the fire discipline is going to critical again bigger rounds translate to lower carrying capacity and more weight (Example 30 round 5.56 is 24 round mag at 6.5mm). I will confess I am 6.5mm Grendel fan with 16” and 20” uppers. The basllistics co-efficient and knockdown push the infantrymans envelope out with current optics to 500m+.

The real advances I see being made with ACR’s is in advanced optics (something beyond the prism scopes) with Day/Night /low light capability, range designator, target marking technology becoming consolidated and less cumbersome (too many pressure switches right now). I can see smart rounds (especially in the squad and platoon support weapons). Of course the propellant and caseless ammo advances will change designs. Last the advances in composites will affect weight and heat/stress tolerances of weapons.

 

[kilemall]

Hmm,we're assuming an ACR has similar human limits/ammo characteristics as TL7 weapons, just with a better carry form factor.


By then there would be cheap standard ridiculous precision targeting scopes/computers on those things coupled with smart rounds that aren't your grandpas dumb slugs.


I tend to model off of Striker so that kind of thing would be a higher number of valid targets as the scope IDs potential targets and autospreads the outgoing into several burst groups.


Another one for me is homing rounds, half click locks image on scope into bullet memory, full pull sends the round in on the imaged target like an acquired missile. Start with LAGs at TL10 and move on down the ammo size range at higher TLs.

 

[Epee]

Good thoughts

 

[Condottiere]

More advanced body armour would probably favour accuracy and more punch/piercing.

The issue must come to a head between transitioning from combat armour to powered armour, since adding more layers of protection doesn't come at the cost of fatiguing the soldier.

 

[wellis]

Incidentally, how well do TL9/10 body armors compare to modern frontline body armor in protection from assault rifles to ACRs?

 

[Timerover51]

First, current body armor basically covers just the torso and part of the abdomen in the front. It does not cover the arms or legs to any major degree. With plates, it can stop an AK-47 round or a 5.56mm round at medium range. As for a full-power cartridge, like a .30-06 or a 7.62mm NATO round, especially if firing AP bullets, not a lot. That would hold true for the Traveller Advanced Combat Rifle also. If you have a handgun, and your target may be wearing current body armor, you go for either a head shot, not the easiest to do, or the legs in the lower abdomen or upper thigh area. A hit there can break the hip and down the target. Once down, then either the head shot or more into the lower body area. If you are firing from the rear, you go for the buttocks to hit or break the hip.

If you are using a submachinegun, then spray the legs first, then go for the head. If you hit a major leg artery, the target might bleed to death in about 30 seconds or so.

Once you get up to .50 caliber or 14.5mm rounds, current body armor does not do a lot, even against ball cartridges. If firing AP, you probably are going to have through the body shots.

Now, if you do some handwavium, you can say that Traveller body armor can stop full-power rifle ammunition, but against heavy machine guns, that starts getting a bit stretched.

 

[wellis]

First, current body armor basically covers just the torso and part of the abdomen in the front. It does not cover the arms or legs to any major degree. With plates, it can stop an AK-47 round or a 5.56mm round at medium range. As for a full-power cartridge, like a .30-06 or a 7.62mm NATO round, especially if firing AP bullets, not a lot. That would hold true for the Traveller Advanced Combat Rifle also.

Er I don't know about modern 7 62 NATO AP, which uses a tungsten core, but I do understand modern ESAPI plates can protect against .30-06 AP due to it using hardened steel cores instead.

I guess TL9 & TL10 body armors can better protect against tungsten cored ammunition then?

 

[infojunky]

the miniaturized versions with the Gauss Rifle/Pistols at TL12/13.

Note Book 4 states that the TL12 Gauss rifle is the ultimate expression of the slugthrower, thus implying that there could be lower tech versions with equally lower performance models as well.

Thus I can see a Gauss Rifle with similar performance stats to the ACR at TL10....

 

[Condottiere]

Future armour protection is going to be layered.

 

[mike wightman]

There is only so much you can do with armour based on layered graphene and diamond composites with non-Newtonian fluid energy absorbers and still have a set of armour you can wear.
Powered armour will increase the thickness of the armour you can wear, but I would imagine that even that would be defeatable by a man-portable weapon.

 

[kilemall]

Note Book 4 states that the TL12 Gauss rifle is the ultimate expression of the slugthrower, thus implying that there could be lower tech versions with equally lower performance models as well.

Thus I can see a Gauss Rifle with similar performance stats to the ACR at TL10....

But more expensive and less shots/more expensive power packs at TL10 vs. TL12.

 

[kilemall]

First, current body armor basically covers just the torso and part of the abdomen in the front. It does not cover the arms or legs to any major degree. With plates, it can stop an AK-47 round or a 5.56mm round at medium range. As for a full-power cartridge, like a .30-06 or a 7.62mm NATO round, especially if firing AP bullets, not a lot. That would hold true for the Traveller Advanced Combat Rifle also. If you have a handgun, and your target may be wearing current body armor, you go for either a head shot, not the easiest to do, or the legs in the lower abdomen or upper thigh area. A hit there can break the hip and down the target. Once down, then either the head shot or more into the lower body area. If you are firing from the rear, you go for the buttocks to hit or break the hip.

If you are using a submachinegun, then spray the legs first, then go for the head. If you hit a major leg artery, the target might bleed to death in about 30 seconds or so.

Once you get up to .50 caliber or 14.5mm rounds, current body armor does not do a lot, even against ball cartridges. If firing AP, you probably are going to have through the body shots.

Now, if you do some handwavium, you can say that Traveller body armor can stop full-power rifle ammunition, but against heavy machine guns, that starts getting a bit stretched.

These considerations are why I went Striker with hit location. The more you armor up everything including extremities the more encumbered you become, so many WILL choose just the vest, thigh and helmet combo, counting on less damage for extremities if you are hit.


In Striker with my adjusted table the lower tech rifles are still doing damage, but a lot less lethal per shot if they hit cloth or CES. I have hard plate options for both and those are more survivable, at encumbrance costs that limit mobility and offensive capability.


Adjusting the hit for a head shot, you can do MORE damage then the conventional damage if no helmet is in the way- a pistol shot to the head can definitely kill you as can say a sword hit, and a fist hit has the capacity to do that first blow knockout.

 

[wellis]

Are ACRs some form of full powered select fire battle rifle, firing caseless ammunition? Because i wonder how heavy their recoil is.

 

[hiro]

Are ACRs some form of full powered select fire battle rifle, firing caseless ammunition? Because i wonder how heavy their recoil is.

Depends which version of Traveller you want to reference. I'm sure someone can tell us which but there are instances of both heavy and light ACRs along with just ACR.

I don't remember how much info they went into re caseless, I prefer the idea of binary propellants myself but I don't think that crops up in canon anywhere.

 

[infojunky]

Are ACRs some form of full powered select fire battle rifle, firing caseless ammunition? Because i wonder how heavy their recoil is.

Book 4 states they are developed from Assault Rifles.

 

[kilemall]

Been going into the whole bit of recoil, the PGMPs and FGMPs for instance should effectively be like a rocketpack with a 1-second burst.


The way I read it, all that bit about the gyroscopic stabilization is there to help manage the increased recoil, likely there are more advanced recoil handling mechanisms that are unspecified, all with the goal of keeping the ACR in the same ergonomic range as current rifles.

 

[hiro]

Been going into the whole bit of recoil, the PGMPs and FGMPs for instance should effectively be like a rocketpack with a 1-second burst.


The way I read it, all that bit about the gyroscopic stabilization is there to help manage the increased recoil, likely there are more advanced recoil handling mechanisms that are unspecified, all with the goal of keeping the ACR in the same ergonomic range as current rifles.

I think there's only so far you can go improving the assault rifle - they're always going to be limited by the shooters ability to manage recoil, heft the thing for prolonged periods of time and how many rounds you can carry. The ACR being lighter, holding more rounds and being a little more powerful than an AR seems reasonable to me. I never understood the gyroscopic compensation idea, I get that gyros are used to stabilize things but how they could be made to spin up quickly enough to react to the weapon discharging? Wouldn't it need a power supply and some kind of rapid discharge system? I guess it could be similar to the external power supply for early hand held lasers but that's never mentioned so I guess not. I like the idea that something along the lines of the HK G11's rotating breech tho how effectively it reduces recoil I'm not sure.

P/FGMPs mostly rely on battledress and I'd guess use gravitic compensation or some such hand wave with the weapon drawing power from the suit.

 

[Condottiere]

Basically, optimal combat gear load is around thirty kilogrammes, allocated between offensive and defensive measures, and has been for millenia, the usual formula of personal firepower, mobility and protection, subsidized by collective firepower, mobility and protection, supported by available logistics, and directed by current doctrine.

This is about as good as it gets, without improvements in material science, the addition of exoskeletons, or a jump in technological levels to utilize gauss.