Gauss Pistol Damage

[veltyen]

Hollywood vs Reality

In hollywood you fly backwards when shot, but the person shooting doesn't even flinch.

In the realy world neither move terribly much. The gun kicks, and the "shootee" is probably trying to fit into cracks in the pavement, but noone really flies around.

In hollywood being shot in the groin is played for humor. Headshots are always implied as fatal.

In the real world being shot in the groin, centre chest (for heart and and associated arteries) or neck are often more fatal then head shots. Bleeding out from a thigh wound takes very little time indeed. If a headshot doesn't kill you then and there you will probably live (dependant on infection and care).

Depends whether you are going for a cinematic feel or a gritty feel. In a lot of war zones you should be more afraid of locally acquired intestinal worms then the enemy. But dying by crapping yourself to death from damage to the intestinal walls certainly doesn't feel cinematic...

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Gauss Velocities are in the 4800-5000 feet per second range, rifles are typically under 3300 feet per second. (Mach 3)

FWIW, the "canonical" gauss pistol from JTAS #13 fires its needles at 1200 m/s (= 3937 ft/sec = Mach 3.5). However, it also says this is "just under the speed of sound". Since the speed of sound in dry air at 25 deg. C is 347 m/s, maybe the description should be taken with a grain of salt. I bet it should have read 1200 kph. I'll probably have to go back and re-do my Equipment Sheet again. *sigh*

The gauss rifle is said to throw needles at 1500 m/s (=4921 ft/sec = Mach 4.3).

BTW, I do not like the range system in d20 at all. Well, OK, maybe it works for man-powered ranged weapons - although I'm unconvinced of that, too. The original AD&D three-range-band system seemed to work OK - and was similar to the way Striker handled ranges as well.

For machine-powered weapons, I don't think it works. Weapon ranges can be longer than the range at which a human can target effectively; the introduction of sights and laser pointers changes things dramatically (I just read an article that says real-world accuracy increases by 40-60% with a simple red-dot pointer); weapon stabilisation also changes the equation.

I prefer to separate the "effective targetting range" from the real effective range of a weapon. Using this, you can (for eaxmple) target a gauss pistol out to a max range of 60 metres. This would suggest that you could target a snub pistol out as far, but the separation of the two mechanics allows you to give the snub pistol a max weapon-effective range of 25 metres (thus aligning to its "canonical" stats). Importantly, note that even though 25 m is the max range, the firer should NOT receive a -18 modifier "to hit" using a snub pistol at this maximum! However, the game mechanic, as written, prevents you from having this split between the two concepts.

My advice? Throw away the d20/T20 range bands and use something like I developed for my MT Weapons Tables. Here's a sampler:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> C* S* M* L* VL* D* VD* SR*
Type Round Aim Max 1m 3m 45m 300m 600m 1.5km 3km 50km Auto Dngr Hit
DM Range (1D) (2D) (3D) (4D) (5D) (6D) (7D) (8D) Tgts Spc Dmg
1m 3m 45m 300m 600m 1.5km 3km 50km
Gauss Pistol:
TL13 needle +2 60m 4 4 4 2 --- --- --- --- 2 --- 4D
TL13 tranq +2 60m 2 2 2 2 --- --- --- --- 2 --- 1D

Gauss Rifle:

TL12 needle +5 1260m 7 7 7 7 7 3 --- --- 2/3 --- 4D</pre>[/QUOTE]Damage is per hit.

(Sorry, they're not up on the web at present; I'm planning on fixing this soon.)

To translate these MT-oriented tables to d20, I believe you could subtract 4 from the "to hit" roll per range band beyond Short. This reflects the average increase in difficulty shown in the tables (3D to 4D is 1D, average 3.5). Thus, any target at 500m is -8 to hit with iron sights.

You then offset the negatives with (a) the weapon quality and (b) accessories such as sights. For example, the rifle has an "Aiming DM" of +5; that is, it is equivalent to a magical +5 weapon. (After all, it provides a flat trajectory and it is gyrostabilised - this is the in-game explanation!) Sights could be used to negate "n" number of range bands, so an optical sight could maybe negate the first -4 band.

In other words, you could argue that a sight-equipped gauss rifle receives: -8 (range) negated to -4 (sights) and +5 (quality) for an overall +1 to hit at 500 metres.

I just need to make sure the rules balance out and I haven't created a monster - a meta-game issue.

Your thoughts so far, folks?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:Actually Stopping power is very real and important.

Bruce,

Let me quote again from the FBI study:

The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth.

What part of myth don't you understand? Go read the report and think again about gun shots knocking people on their ass.

By the way, I hunt and I've never knocked down a deer. They bleed out.


Bill </font>[/QUOTE]You may hunt, but what do you use? My father believes that you need to hit a deer with enough energy that you don't chase it. (Of course I have never heard of him just wounding one.) He tends to go for more energy than he needs. When he hits a deer it usually dies virtually instantly and only its momentum keeps it going. However when he hits a deer it tends to change direction. Usually all four hooves in the air and then brown and white, brown and white, as it rolls down a hill. Of course these days he tends to use a .444 or a .45-70 because he doesn't want to have to chase it. (Again, not that he has ever missed enough to not hit the heart with the first round.)

There are a couple of reasons that the Seals went back to the .45. One is it is subsonic so therefore easier to silence, the second is that when it hits it knocks down your target. All that report said was that stopping power wasn't lethal. But getting hit with a .45 from an M1911A1 is still going to mess up your day.

According to Remington's Website a .45 with a semiwadcutter round will deliver 395 ft-pounds of energy at 50 yards. Now I can't find a reliable source as to how many ft-lb. it takes to knock a person off their feet, but I do know people that say that the .45 will do that, because they had to shoot people with it. A 9mm with a hot load and the right bullet will break 300 at 50 meters, barely, More normal numbers are around 275, and I have heard plenty of stories that, that won't knock a person down. Interestingly enough the F.B.I. within a year of adopting the 9mm as standard went to the 10mm because the 9mm wasn't knocking the target down.

You can call it a myth, you can say that the way it says it in the report is Gospel, however you can't believe everything you read on the internet, even if it is a "Quoted" source, if it was actually from the FBI website, it would hold more water for me. But like many of these experts writing these "reports" they have an agenda. History says that the reason the US Army and the British Army went to the big caliber pistols (.45 and .44 respectively) was that when you hit a man with it they went down. Now someone is going to erase 90+ years of history and experience by calling it a myth. Good luck with that one.

It does take 900 ft-lbs to knock down a typical North Eastern White Tail. If you are firing a 7mm and the bullet passes through then it isn't going to deliver 900 ft.-lbs. and knock the deer off its feet.If on the otherhand your bullet delivers 100% of the energy to the target (No exit wound) or a significant portion, large bore hitting something hard, like a bone for example, and you transfer 900 ft-lbs to the deer it will knock it down. If you don't hit anything vital it will get back up again, but you will knock it down.

 

[mike wightman]

I saw a show, on Discovery chanel perhaps?, where gunshot victims were interviewed.

Not one of them was knocked over by the bullet. One was shot several times while running away and didn't even realise he'd been shot half a dozen times.

All were victims of pistol calibre ammo.

As an aside - although it's relevent to high velocity rounds - yesterday I say the Mythbusters testing the myth that a few feet of water would save your life if the bad guys are shooting at you and you choose to dive into a river/lake/sea to escape.
They fired various guns, including the 0.5" sniper rifle, at a target a few feet underwater, at an angle of about 23 degrees.
Their conclusion - every high velocity weapon was useless after three to five feet of water due to the round - FMJ - disintegrating.
Lower velocity weapons like a Civil War Sprinfield Rifle, and a 9mm pistol, were able to penetrate more water.

 

[parmasson]

This should be simple to test. If somebody lives in rural area get a couple of 170-180lb pigs and shoot them in the same place. Hit one with a 9mm and the other with a .45 and observe the results.

Regardless of the results get lots of potato salad, a couple of big roasting pits dug and invite everybody over for a massive cookout

[edit] ok this sounds a little expensive but I am sure it could be done with almost anything that has the weight of an average human.

 

[Anthony]

In order to actually knock someone down, you need enough momentum transfer to, at a minimum, also knock down the person firing the gun.

Forcing someone to take a step back to keep standing (assuming they aren't moving) requires giving them a shove on the order of 50-100 kg m/s -- say, a 60 gram (925 grain) bullet at 833 m/s (2730 fps). That's more than ten times the momentum, and more than forty times the energy, of a .45.

However, there is a factor that causes people to fall over when shot with guns. It is, however, apparently psychological -- people who are aware that they are shot are prone to falling over (for that matter, people who think they've been shot are prone to falling over, even if the shot missed), people who are not aware they have been shot (or are in altered states of mind) are not. To the extent that a .45 produces a more obvious flash or a louder noise, it should be slightly more effective for those purposes.

Incidentally, the .223, which is rather maligned for its poor stopping power, has 3.5-4x the kinetic energy of a .45 bullet, and nearly as much total momentum.

 

[Rossoneill]

Mythbusters also did an experiment where they hung a carcass of i believe it was a pig ( but i wont swear to it)from the edge of a hook so that if there was any Knockdown power at all it would slip off the hook and fall down .
They used High powered Rifles,SMG's A M60 and lots of other weapons .
They fired the M60 and all the other automatic and semi auto type weapons at full auto and semi auto and where applicable single shot and the carcass did not budge .
It did fall once near the end of the test but after falling once they redid the shooting and discovered that it had just gradually slipped of the hook .
After more shooting they could not get it to fall again .
This seems to me to prove the no Knockdown Statement .
Also isnt it true that in order to deliver enough power to knockdown say a 200 Lb man that the shooter would have to absorb that much recoil ?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I saw a show, on Discovery chanel perhaps?, where gunshot victims were interviewed.

Not one of them was knocked over by the bullet. One was shot several times while running away and didn't even realise he'd been shot half a dozen times.

All were victims of pistol calibre ammo.

Now while I don't doubt this, also note that they interviewed survivors of Pistol gunshot wounds.

Further the most common pistol ammunition on the Street and in combat is 9mm, with a bunch of .25, .22 and .38 Sepcials that would probably cover 75+ percent of all gunshot wound survivors. The bigger bore handguns are much less popular, and also, believe it or not more accurate and tend to be in hands of experts. Meaning that you are less likely to survive such a hit. They are specialist weapons, that tend to be in the hands of specialists. The Amateur doesn't tend to carry that kind of hardware.

One other point, many TV companies are staunchly anti-gun, NBC especially. So they tend to have a definite agenda.

 

[BetterThanLife]

While it is all fine and good to shoot pigs or deer, remember that pigs and deer have 4 legs not 2 and a pig has a lower center of gravity than a person. (I think you will find that Pigs are notoriously difficult to knock over. The only real test isn't shooting milk jugs, it isn't shooting deer, it is shooting people. Now I am not advocating going out and shooting people, but talk to some of the experts that actually have had to shoot people, if you can get them to talk about it.

While there is the conservation of energy and momentum, so logically the person firing the gun gets the same force applied as the person getting hit. However remember the following. When you fire a weapon, you know when you are going to fire it so you can brace for the recoil. The Weapon soaks up some of that recoil and uses that energy to do things, like chamber the next round. No matter how well you are braced the nature firearms transfers some of that recoil energy to the barrell rising, angular momentum. Since the movement is off axis that actually soaks up more recoil than you might otherwise believe and Gravity, in this case, is your friend. Even so, I have seen evidence of such a thing. I saw an idiot that wasn't in a good shooting stance, about knock himself out when the recoil drove the barrel of his 9mm up into his face. I saw my father, firing a new rifle with a "hot load" showing off, not properly braced and sitting in the wrong place get knocked over once. (Actually rather funny, looking back at it now.)

When you get struck by a bullet you are not actually braced for the hit. If it hits you away from your center of gravity you will bend, not break, which could cause you to leave your feet. And I have driven a person back a step with a punch. Even a 9mm hits harder than I do.

But, I am not an expert on shooting people. I am not a Doctor. I have never actually shot anyone. I spent 9 years in the Army as a REMF, and never got deployed to a combat zone. So I may not really understand all the physics, I have never witnessed a person getting hit by a pistol round. I may believe in myths, but I do know that I shoot straight, I generally hit what I aim at, and if, God forbid, I have to shoot someone with my USP they will go down. In all honesty, that is all that really matters.

So read your reports, quote your sources and enjoy. But if you want to know what really works, without the hype, look at what the experts that have to actually plan on shooting people use. The Seals use the .45 (as does the SAS, and I believe Delta) and the FBI uses the 10mm. the current Submachinegun of choice for Counterterrorist work is the UMP-45. Draw what conclusions you want, but when it comes down to defending me and mine, I personally go with what the experts rely on.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
So read your reports, quote your sources and enjoy. But if you want to know what really works, without the hype, look at what the experts that have to actually plan on shooting people use.

Bruce,

And, again, here is what the experts say on the subject. No hunting yarns, no century old myths about a .45 dropping drugged Moros or mules, none of that bilge. This is the FBI and Aberdeen Proven grounds have to say on the subject. You know, the guys who use math, run experiments, tell cops and soldiers what to carry, and don't rely on hearsay and wishful thinking.

Main site URL is: http://www.firearmstactical.com

A .pdf version of the same FBI report you blithely dismissed because it wasn't on a FBI page:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Read it, examine the site, and learn something. I'm sorry if it doesn't match what you've believed to be true all these years, it was an eye-opener for me too.


Bill

P.S. The report deals with HANDGUNS only, as did the origianl post in this thread. So please quit confusing the issue by bringing in rifles, SMGs, assault weapons. etc. Different kettle of fish as it were.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I may believe in myths, but I do know that I shoot straight, I generally hit what I aim at, and if, God forbid, I have to shoot someone with my USP they will go down.

So read your reports, quote your sources and enjoy. But if you want to know what really works, without the hype, look at what the experts that have to actually plan on shooting people use.

That would be assault rifles. However, I don't think anyone is claiming that the .45 is particularly bad at disabling people (as pistols go, it's pretty good, though no pistol is all that reliable at disabling people), just that it won't knock them down.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually the original post dealt with Gauss Pistols, which while a handgun, in the rules and size definition is not a handgun in performance, under any of the Traveller Rulesets. The muzzle velocity is greater than any firearm currently in use, and definitely is faster than rifles so you have to consider rifle ammo to atempt to approach the capability of a Gauss Pistol. Submachineguns use the same ammo as handguns. Until recently the primary counterterrorist SMG was the MP5. The current primary SMG is the UMP-45. That is a recent change adopted by both the Seals and the SAS. It was adopted at the same time they replaced their 9mm pistols with the H&K Mk-23 (.45). They did the replacement because they, under field conditions, with live targets, decided that the .45 does a better job of taking down a target.

Funny how the website also has articles on choosing the right handgun by stopping power.

The US switch from .45 to 9mm for Army use was a political decision, and it made our pistol ammunition compatable with our NATO allies. Funny, how the guys that actually use the weapons, in combat went right back to .45 as soon as they could convince the powers that be that they need the extra stopping power. Also funny that the FBI adopted the 9mm at about the same time the US military did but within a year switched to the 10mm for the increase in the myth of stopping power.

I have read the report, but I don't see the FBI going back to 9mm because of the report. After all according to that report the difference in perfomance between a 9mm and a .45 is minimal. The 9mm is easier to conceal, carries more ammo, is lighter and therefore easier to carry. They carry the 10mm, even though many of the agents, when their 9mm got replaced by a 10mm complained about the additional weight and the recoil of the 10mm.

When comparing a Gauss Pistol to any current handgun you are already comparing apples to oranges and the hydrostatic shock, wound channels, etc. all apply at rifle velocities. (The Memo states that.) The Memo flies in the face of 90+ years of combat data, so you are right, because it comes from a source other than the FBI website, I am giving it less credence than it might deserve, but if it was accepted by the FBI as real, it would be on their site and their agents would be carrying 9mm, for the same reasons the 9mm replaced the .45 in the first place.

The FBI usually manages to avoid the procurement SNAFUs that the military is saddled with when it comes to sidearms. It is funny that the SEALS and the SAS, when asked what they want to carry, sat down with H&K and together came up with the Mk23, which is a .45 and that caused the UMP-45 to also be built.

You can take my comments and ignore them or consider them. In all honesty, it doesn't really matter. I will use what I use, and I won't be swayed from that, because it works and because it is what the guys that actually have to use these weapons under more rigorous conditions than I will ever be in, choose.

For everything else, well I am done with this thread, which started as a comment on Gauss Pistol damage, and is now talking about handguns not related to gauss pistols.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
...because it comes from a source other than the FBI website, I am giving it less credence than it might deserve, but if it was accepted by the FBI as real, it would be on their site...

Good Sweet Christ.

The report was written on 14 July 1989 by Special Agent Urey W. Patrick of the Firearms Training Unit of the FBI Training Academy in Quantico Virginia for training new agents and you're questioning it's authenticity? Huh?

The report is not on the FBI site because it is over 15 years old, the Feebs didn't have a website then. Also, the report was originally intended for "Law Enforcement Dissemination Only". That's right on Page One along with the note that the AUTHOR, Special Agent Urey, released it to the site, and not the FBI.

Having worked for the government either directly or as a consultant, I can tell you that Urey's case is not unique. Unless the work in question recieved a security classification, it belongs to you after a certain period of time. The Feds don't want to bother with copyrights.

Furthermore, you can blather on about muzzle velocities until your blue in the face. Muzzle velocity doesn't mean a thing until your factor in projectile mass. Anthony has already tried to explain the link between muzzled velocity, projectile mass, momentum and recoil to you.

If, at the muzzle velocities listed, Gauss pistols aren't unweildy and dangerous to use, the mass of their projectiles must be much lower than the mass of current day projectiles. If a Gauss pistol were throwing the equivalent of a .223 slug, let alone a 9mm or .45, the pistol would be completely unmanageable at the muzzle velocities listed. You cannot cheat the physics.

Therefore, while the Gauss pistol has a high muzzle velocity, it also has a small projectile mass and, when you DO THE MATH, the momentum transferred is not any geater than current day pistols. Why? Because the amount of momentum is limited by a human's ability to control the pistol while firing it. You cannot get around that fact. There is upper limit to acceptable momentum in handguns and it is set by the human body itself. Again, you cannot cheat the physics.

Now, you can handle more momentum, or recoil if you will, in the form of a rifle than you can in the form of a pistol. However, while not everyone can handle Desert Eagle .50s, anyone can supposedly handle a Gauss pistol. The Gauss pistol must operate within a certain momentum band and, given it's muzzle velocity, it's projectile mass must neccessarily be low in order to stay within that band. Once more, you cannot cheat the physics.

For everything else, well I am done with this thread, which started as a comment on Gauss Pistol damage, and is now talking about handguns not related to gauss pistols.

Sure, take your ball and go home.

This thread is still related to Gauss pistol damage because, knowing about wounding effects and momentum limitations, we can make an estimate about it's projectile mass; it's far lower than the mass of current handgun projectiles. Knowing the projecile mass must be low means we can make guesses as to how a Gauss pistol actually wounds people. As Marvo surmised, the Gauss pistol must have great burst accuracy or, as others have suggested, the Gauss pistol must use something akin to flechettes. Perhaps its both.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Badbru]

Bhoins, Did you even read the article?

Theres a line in there that says being hit by a .45 bullet has about the same impact effect as being hit by a baseball. Would that knock you on your butt?

Dr Fackler was quoted as responding to the question of taking a mid torso wound with a glasser bullet as say the victim will probably die, in about three days with the cause of death being peritinitis.

The 5.56 bullet is as effective or even more effective than the US 7.62N bullet because it breaks at the canoelle? line where the casing crimps onto the bullet at its mid yaw point in the wound with the front half continuing and the back half fragmenting as shown in all the wound track pictures.

Cling to your beliefs if you must but atleast post like you've availed yourself of the information.

 

[archhealer]

Stopping power may or may not be a myth.

Muzzle velocity may or may not be a factor.

Knocking people down with a gun (and not meaning falling down dead) may be unrealistic.

T20 has space-ships and laser cannons.

Any questions?

 

[parmasson]

But . . we...Umm . . .however that my be but, lasers and. . .Hmmmmmmm

 

[Rossoneill]

Archhealer very well said
Ditto Parmasson
I totally agree with your above statement .
I think that says it all

But it still is interesting to discuss

 

[archhealer]

Originally posted by Rossthree:
Archhealer very well said
Ditto Parmasson
I totally agree with your above statement .
I think that says it all

But it still is interesting to discuss

I didn't mean to say that discussing it was in any way wrong or bad, just that, so far as T20 is concerned, it's a little irrelevant. They said it realy well in Firefly:
Wash- "Psychic? but, that's just so Sci-Fi."
Zoe- "Sweetheart, we live on a spaceship."
Wash- "So?"

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Archhealer:
GM-"The jump field has gone unstable, and is gradually progressing into the Jump-Drive chamber. You can now see it in spots, along the bulk-head"
Player- "I put my sachel over my head so I can't see the jumpspace, and fix the drive blind."

Completely off-topic: for me this was a keyboard kill!!! (Do we have those on the CotI boards??? )

 

[Rossoneill]

Did anyone watch Mythbusters Last night ?
They used a dummy hung on a rig that allowed him to fall with very small Knockdown/Knockback power .
Gave him a bullet resistant vest with a steel plate under it so he would absorb all the kinetic energy of the bullets.
They aimed at center of mass where the vest and steel plate was .
Then they fired all kinds of weapons M16 ,Shotguns ,Rifles Etc up to a 50 Cal rifle and the few times he fell he just fell down .
He did not fly backward at all
If the 50 Cal bullet did not do Knock back to me it proves that the law of Reaction applies .
And Knockback is