What is the muzzle velocity of a gauss pistol? If in the 1200m/s and higher range then how about lead needles, they vaporize on contact with armor (or bones)? The vaporization of the needle against armor increases the penatration effect of the kinetic energy delivered. Example: 220 swift or 22-250 rounds loaded to 4000+ FPS fired against steel plates of 1/2 in thickness vaporize on the surface and punch a 1/2" diameter 1/8" thick billet of steel through layer of brick and wood. (from personal experiance with 22-250) When impacting bones a kg or more of flesh is also vaporized as the bullet does it's thing. Not a great result when shooting at the arachnids of starship troopers, but headshots on large mammals tend to vaporize large enough portions of the head to kill even large beasts.
Gauss Pistol TL-14
- Thread starter SpaceBadger
- Start date
I hate it when that happens.
FYI: Link to 2004 Gauss Ammo discussion restored. https://www.travellerrpg.com/threads/ammo-for-gauss-pistol.9941/
(and I figured out how to fix a broken link ... so this luddite learned something new today)
(and I figured out how to fix a broken link ... so this luddite learned something new today)
I have a sword (admittedly ceremonial) made with modern steel. It has a thin layer of non reactive metal electroplated over the top to make sure it doesn't rust. Both the modern steel and the electroplating are well beyond the nominal TL 2 origins of modern western military swords.
I'd still argue that if I were to go and get it sharpened and then stat the weapon in Traveller terms it'd be a TL2 blade even with the fancy materials and production techniques. It's a TL2 blade that likely needs less sharpening, cleaning and general care than one made at TL2 it's also probably cheaper to make than the original design but it's still fundamentally TL2 technology.
Yes modern pistols are lighter, easier to carry and manufacture while being more rugged and cheaper compared to mean total wages (probably, I've never bought a firearm), but are they fundamentally different from their TL5 ancestors in any way? (Stat for game's sake that is.)
Is an increase in the pressure a chamber can hold a TL jump or is it the sort of increases you'd expect within a TL?
I'd argue that the work that Gerald Bull did in the field of artillery with HARP and ERFB could count as levelling up a TL (5-6/7) but I don't know if something similar has happened in the world of small arms.
What you say here:
makes me think that perhaps something like caseless or electric ignition ammo is this step beyond cased ammunition.
By Book 3 we aren't even TL7 then - no standard non-starships or pulse lasers. OTOH, we can probably beat a TL-11 hand computer with what we've got in our pockets, so...
And then there's the matter of other rule sets. TNE calls us TL8.
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The amount of power necessary for the task is finite, unless you plan on using Gauss Pistols for K'kree.
Outside of power, pistols have always had disadvantages simply in terms of their ability to hit the target as well as pure accuracy (which is rarely a real issue at normal pistol ranges). Outside of very tight spaces, long guns have always been better, not just because of their longer site radius, but because of their mass, they don't drift off target as easily.
The site radius issue is vanishing with the modern holographic and red dot sites. "Nobody" is using iron sights anymore.
Having a cartridge designed to punch through strong body armor turns out to have a real problem with over penetration on targets that DON'T have body armor. Over penetration is less so an issue in open field combat, but quite different in close quarters and an urban setting.
So, even if you managed to get a Gauss Pistol cranked up to BMG 50 power, it wouldn't actually be very practical in situations where a pistol might be used.
Other advances for a hi tech pistol could be target isolation and identification with the ballistic computer. Simply point it at a target (i.e. a person), and pull the trigger. Then simply ("simply") hold the trigger down, and let the computer continue to track, and identify the target, and only firing when it has a high certainty of a hit. So, you could point it at someone running down a street, hold down the trigger, and perhaps follow the arrows in the site as you wave the pistol back and forth until it finally decides to fire. You could even do this blindly around a corner. It would also be safer in crowds should the target enter an open area.
Also great for barricaded subjects, or those hiding behind hostages. (Perhaps flick the "really really sure" switch on the pistol to narrow its target potential.)
Outside of power, pistols have always had disadvantages simply in terms of their ability to hit the target as well as pure accuracy (which is rarely a real issue at normal pistol ranges). Outside of very tight spaces, long guns have always been better, not just because of their longer site radius, but because of their mass, they don't drift off target as easily.
The site radius issue is vanishing with the modern holographic and red dot sites. "Nobody" is using iron sights anymore.
Having a cartridge designed to punch through strong body armor turns out to have a real problem with over penetration on targets that DON'T have body armor. Over penetration is less so an issue in open field combat, but quite different in close quarters and an urban setting.
So, even if you managed to get a Gauss Pistol cranked up to BMG 50 power, it wouldn't actually be very practical in situations where a pistol might be used.
Other advances for a hi tech pistol could be target isolation and identification with the ballistic computer. Simply point it at a target (i.e. a person), and pull the trigger. Then simply ("simply") hold the trigger down, and let the computer continue to track, and identify the target, and only firing when it has a high certainty of a hit. So, you could point it at someone running down a street, hold down the trigger, and perhaps follow the arrows in the site as you wave the pistol back and forth until it finally decides to fire. You could even do this blindly around a corner. It would also be safer in crowds should the target enter an open area.
Also great for barricaded subjects, or those hiding behind hostages. (Perhaps flick the "really really sure" switch on the pistol to narrow its target potential.)
Sounds great... until you realise that you still have to get a 'hit' on the target initially (and know whether or not you've got a lock on the right target), and then you have to trust the system to track the target correctly. The latter is probably better than letting some Guns-0 rookie do it unaided, but the first bit is still going to be a problem.
By the time the software is good enough to overcome all that it's probably also good enough that you can just ditch the user and put the software and gun in a robot. Robot cops with guns. Nothing could go wrong with this...
Ahhh the armor vs overpenetration vs hollow point sim issue.
The plain old Traveller #D damage doesn’t do that well with it. I use modified CT Striker but that requires tweaks too.
For hollow point I drop the armor pen but add a die of damage if it penetrates.
If it’s super penetration but not tumbling I’d up the armor pen and drop a die of damage.
As for kinetic tech tree, I added in a few.
Caseless at TL8, increases round count, not usable for revolvers.
The laser revolution is in full swing at TL9 so nothing there except an ATR/LAG type gauss weapon.
At TL10 the ACR family but instead of caseless the mechanism is electrothermal chemical or ETC. That explains the big punch up. In addition ETC could solve the overpenetration problem- the gas charge loaded goes up or down based on the targeting computers read of the target armor.
At TL11 the homing ammo revolution- optical/IR and control fins micro miniaturized to increase to hit/precision target location ability.
The plain old Traveller #D damage doesn’t do that well with it. I use modified CT Striker but that requires tweaks too.
For hollow point I drop the armor pen but add a die of damage if it penetrates.
If it’s super penetration but not tumbling I’d up the armor pen and drop a die of damage.
As for kinetic tech tree, I added in a few.
Caseless at TL8, increases round count, not usable for revolvers.
The laser revolution is in full swing at TL9 so nothing there except an ATR/LAG type gauss weapon.
At TL10 the ACR family but instead of caseless the mechanism is electrothermal chemical or ETC. That explains the big punch up. In addition ETC could solve the overpenetration problem- the gas charge loaded goes up or down based on the targeting computers read of the target armor.
At TL11 the homing ammo revolution- optical/IR and control fins micro miniaturized to increase to hit/precision target location ability.
Or use TNE/FF&S and that's all in there. Well, technically hollow points aren't, but there was a rule in Twilight: 2000 2e for them somewhere. You add +1 to damage, and also +1 to all Pen ratings, so they did more damage but armour was better against them. Simple, good enough for gaming purposes.
I'm not convinced about homing small arms ammo. I'm pretty sure the seeker's 'eyeball' is going to be small enough that it hits the actual physics limits on optics, so all it can really be is a 'home on laser designator' and that means the designator has to be on target and tracking when the gun is fired, so why not just aim the gun and be done with it? Also, getting serious manoeuvrability into a bullet will be, ah, 'tricky', again because of physics. To turn enough to be useful whilst moving at many hundred of metres per second, without losing stability or too much energy will be a neat trick.
If nothing else I'd be putting this up at TL13+.
Shrug whatever works for you.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Small arms ammo with limited guidance already exists in at least prototype form , easier to do with larger calibers.
Smart bullet - Wikipedia
Smart weapons already exist too, you highlight the target in your sight and the gun fires when the onboard electronics says a hit is "guaranteed" - Israeli snipers are using it IIRC.
SMASH Handheld - Wikipedia
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
I'm aware. The first is as I said - laser homing, limited manoeuvrability. Some poor sod has to keep the designator on-target the whole time, etc. Fine for sniping low-tech targets, not so much for more dynamic environments.Small arms ammo with limited guidance already exists in at least prototype form , easier to do with larger calibers.
Smart bullet - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Smart weapons already exist too, you highlight the target in your sight and the gun fires when the onboard electronics says a hit is "guaranteed" - Israeli snipers are using it IIRC.
SMASH Handheld - Wikipedia
The latter is as I said - maybe useful for low-skilled shooters, but a good shooter, if they can 'pickle' the target in the first place can just shoot them anyway. Oh, and it uses a laser rangefinder, so again, not so useful vs peer opponents.
Now, at higher TLs some of these issues can be mitigated or outright avoided, but it's still not something I think is just TL9-11, especially given Traveller has pretty crappy electronics, so self-guiding bullets (as opposed to cannon shells) aren't likely to be a thing, and thus someone has to carry and operate a guidance unit (which could be the rifle, of course).
The old ex-grunt in me sees this as likely to be just more stuff to carry that goes wrong at the worst possible moment.
coliver988
SOC-14 1K
there is a reason forward observer skill exists I guess then.
