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Going Pirate

The lesson of Granicus, is that it is outside the Imperium border and is part of a multi-system government. The Raidermarch would be in a similar situation. Now on the Spinward end of the Imperium, there isn't much hope in District 268, Pax Rulin or Egryn subsectors even though these are outside the Imperium. Your best bet would be Coreward of the Spinward Marches. (Probably coreward of Regina, or Aramis, in the Uthe and Firgr subsectors.) Thinking about it there aren't all that many Imperial Naval bases along that border for some reason. In the Coreward 75% of those two subsectors there are a grand total of two Naval bases at, EFATE and Pixie (And they are far to Spinward of Regina Subsector.).
 
Now, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

When it comes to jumping from system to system, I pretty much assume that the target location within the destination system can be pretty much anywhere within the system (modulo 100D limit et al). I also assume that there is some margin of error (i.e. you don't pop in at some exact point in space, but reasonably close).

Next, I would think that since (as I understand it) your original Real Space vector is maintained through the jump, you would want to get a vector heading towards your destination planet (wherever it is plotted to be, probably completely unrelated to your current planet), or you simply stop the ship, jump, and create a new vector when you arrive.

My concern with regard to piracy, is simply that if you essentially allow ships to come in system with any vector, and allowed to arrive within any part of the system, that patrol of the system would be neigh impossible. The resources required in terms of just the volume of patrol vessels would be utter madness.

The reason is two fold. The first is simply gettting enough ships to effectively cover the vast area of space with sensors roaring to extend their reach, but more importantly, two, is to have patrol vessels close enough that their response time is meaningful. It simply does not matter how many patrol craft you have if they can not get to the ship in distress in any reasonable amount of time.

So, given those two details as a premise: ships can arrive pretty much anywhere within a system, regardless of their starting system and the wide open space is simply unmanageable from from an actual patrol point of view, doesn't it make sense that systems will have designated "injection" areas and trade lanes to the planet?

The idea being that if you limit where ships can come in to the system, and the routes they take once in system towards the planet, then you vastly reduce the number of patrol craft necessary to provide security to the shipping lanes, and still have effective coverage and response time.

Now certainly there is nothing to stop you from coming in to a system whereever and whenever, but the systems traffic authority can make compliance to their injump, outjump and trade lanes a condition on whether they will be able to provide security for your vessel.

Assuming the routes are efficient, there's no reason a trader wouldn't take these routes. Even though planets move et al, etc. there's no reason these publish routes can't be made relative to the host planet, and no reason any normal star chart wouldn't have that information. It's just another minor detail in your jump planning.

The only downside is for those ships that aren't willing to take the time/fuel to change their vectors from a fixed location for the destination planet.

Even if that were the prevailing view then the in system patrol can set up and patrol the common vectors for ship egress, from the common trade partners. Most planets have very few trading partners within J-1,2 or even 3, and that leaves a finite number of "optimal vectors" where folks should be coming in to the system, and where they should be exiting the system.

It would seem to me that without these kind of restrictions, piracy would be much easier to do, much like pickpocketing on the New York subway, just too much to police.

Especially if the pirate is operating near the 100D limit, it seems that the pirate can easily evade an approaching patrol by simply jumping outsystem. It doesn't even have to be a particularly GOOD or really accurate jump, just "close" to get the ship out of the system, even if it were a micro jump out into deep space. Burns a week, but better a week spent in J-Space than a life on a prison colony.

On an unrelated note, some folks questioned how to dispose of a ship once you've captured it. If you're talking about just getting rid of it, I think that would be fairly easy, shut it down so it's a cold rock, and just push it off the elliptic plane into deep space, or toss it into a nearby Gas Giant or star.
 
Originally posted by whartung:
The idea being that if you limit where ships can come in to the system, and the routes they take once in system towards the planet, then you vastly reduce the number of patrol craft necessary to provide security to the shipping lanes, and still have effective coverage and response time.
Only problem is that you don't know when or where someone is coming in. If you limit your approach vectors you could end up with some nasty collisions. What happens when two ships happen to hit the same window and jump into the same space? Granted that is a remote chance, but two ships leaving the same port a day apart heading for the same destination can arrive at the same time, and if you severely limit arrival portals, in the same place. Ooops! Now if you put your patrol craft in the same space, what happens when a big freighter shows up right on top of your little 400 Ton Patrol Corvette.


On an unrelated note, some folks questioned how to dispose of a ship once you've captured it. If you're talking about just getting rid of it, I think that would be fairly easy, shut it down so it's a cold rock, and just push it off the elliptic plane into deep space, or toss it into a nearby Gas Giant or star.
Actually I believe the discussion was how to profitably dispose of a prize. Not how to dump it into a sun.
 
Oh, I don't think that collsions are that likely. Space is pretty darn big. If you have a 10,000km diameter volume slated for entry, collsions I think would be pretty darn rare.

The problem is simply response time.

If you consider the patrol volume to be the area between 10 diameters and 100 diameters, then for a size 8 (12000km world), you need ~420 4G patrol ships to give an average 1 hr on site response time. From that you guesstimate what a workable response time is for a pirate incident within the patrol range, and staff up the ships from there.

So, if you can limit approach to any volume of space, you can cut back on the patrol forces necessary or improve response time.

Obviously there's nothing limiting a ship from coming and going wherever they want, but if you basically publish that you patrol a certain volume, and those volumes lead to the most common destinations, like, say, the Jump Routes from system to system, then you can make things really difficult for the potential pirate without a large amount of resources.

With a 10000km diameter corridor out to the 100 diameter limit, with the volume oriented to suit the best vector for a given planet, you can patrol that with FOUR 4G patrol cruisers and have 1hr response time.

Quite the reduction in resources.

You can also have traffic control hand out jump out points or jump in points to even further mitigate any potential collisions for merchant traffic.
 
Originally posted by whartung:
Oh, I don't think that collsions are that likely. Space is pretty darn big. If you have a 10,000km diameter volume slated for entry, collsions I think would be pretty darn rare.
Pretty darn rare is a relative thing. Lets call it one chance in a million. (For the sake of argument, there is not enough statistical canon evidence to get us a good probability, though one chance in a million is pretty darn rare.
) If there are an average of 400 systems per sector. There are between 20 and 21 sectors in the Imperium alone. So lets call it 8000 systems. If each system averages 100 flights a day, you would get a collision about every 1.25 days. I think once a year from something like that is too often.


The problem is simply response time.

If you consider the patrol volume to be the area between 10 diameters and 100 diameters, then for a size 8 (12000km world), you need ~420 4G patrol ships to give an average 1 hr on site response time. From that you guesstimate what a workable response time is for a pirate incident within the patrol range, and staff up the ships from there.

So, if you can limit approach to any volume of space, you can cut back on the patrol forces necessary or improve response time.

Obviously there's nothing limiting a ship from coming and going wherever they want, but if you basically publish that you patrol a certain volume, and those volumes lead to the most common destinations, like, say, the Jump Routes from system to system, then you can make things really difficult for the potential pirate without a large amount of resources.

With a 10000km diameter corridor out to the 100 diameter limit, with the volume oriented to suit the best vector for a given planet, you can patrol that with FOUR 4G patrol cruisers and have 1hr response time.

Quite the reduction in resources.

You can also have traffic control hand out jump out points or jump in points to even further mitigate any potential collisions for merchant traffic.
When you consider weapon ranges, under LBB2 COmbat you can move a Light second with a 0/0 intercept in an hour, or 2 light seconds if you don't slow down in an hour. (Well about an hour, 4000 seconds.) A Light second is about 300,000Km.

100D with a 12,000Km world is 1,200,000Km. One ship could get from close orbit to 100D in 4 hours under LBB2 combat rules. (If you wanted to come to rest there.) Now according to the travel rules a 4G ship takes about 3 hours to get to 100D of a size 8 world. I figure you could get good coverage with just over a dozen ships. You couldn't be everywhere at once but you could definitely keep a pirate on their toes and out of your system. And if you had capital ship sensors monitoring things you could preposition your ships, kind of like the Battle of Britain, and mess up anyone's day.
 
1 in a million is pretty high.

A landing area 10,000 km across has a spherical volume of (5*10^11) km ^3. Considering that if the distribution is smooth accross that volume, and an ENORMOUS ship (71 million dTon - nothing that I know of in canon is anywhere near that large) would take up 1 km^3 and that the first thing to do when entering system is to leave the jump area.

This makes the pr(collision) extremely low. 1 in 1000 million would still be on the high side. One accident every three years over the entire imperium is something that is a tragic accident, but dwarfed by piracy, sabotage and jump drive failure.

A sphere of sdb's and recovery boats at 20,000 km radius should be relatively safe, and also keep the area safe.
 
Originally posted by veltyen:
1 in a million is pretty high.

A landing area 10,000 km across has a spherical volume of (5*10^11) km ^3. Considering that if the distribution is smooth accross that volume, and an ENORMOUS ship (71 million dTon - nothing that I know of in canon is anywhere near that large) would take up 1 km^3 and that the first thing to do when entering system is to leave the jump area.

This makes the pr(collision) extremely low. 1 in 1000 million would still be on the high side. One accident every three years over the entire imperium is something that is a tragic accident, but dwarfed by piracy, sabotage and jump drive failure.

A sphere of sdb's and recovery boats at 20,000 km radius should be relatively safe, and also keep the area safe.
And an average of 100 ships per day is also low, IMHO. The point I was making wasn't that numbers accuracy, it was the sheer volume of traffic in the Imperium, (forget about the rest of the Known Universe) was so high that even a small percentage was likely to be fatal all too often.

Now consider that a ship is supposed to come out of jump at 100D at 168 hours, ideally. But both have a normal variance of +/- 10% on a successful jump. Not knowing when you are going to arrive or when you are going to arrive makes figuring out traffic control at the arrival end a pain in the butt. If two ships are aiming at the same point, (The center of the Arrival zone.) and arrive at the same time from two different destinations then you get a collision especially since they had no idea that the other was coming. If you limit the area where ships are coming in you drastically increase the chance of collision. 2 ships leaving the same departure world, two hours apart, for the same destination world, aiming at the same arrival zone both hit really close to the target (They have really good astrogators. They both hit the center of the zone. However the first ship hits it at +1 hour and the second ship hits it at -1 hour. (Jump Convergence?) Now if ships are aiming at their favorite arrival zone/vector, the chance of collision goes way down.
 
Of course, if you have a designated "landing zone", you can also specify that anyone using that landing zone has to enter with a relative velocity of zero or be subject to very large fines.

While that sounds restrictive, it really isn't. If you are not going to enter with a relative velocity of zero, or are going to be entering hot, just do it somewhere else away from the landing zone.

That alone should mitigate most accidents, and lower the fatality levels of any that do happen. At the landing zone, anyway.
 
Originally posted by daryen:
Of course, if you have a designated "landing zone", you can also specify that anyone using that landing zone has to enter with a relative velocity of zero or be subject to very large fines.

While that sounds restrictive, it really isn't. If you are not going to enter with a relative velocity of zero, or are going to be entering hot, just do it somewhere else away from the landing zone.

That alone should mitigate most accidents, and lower the fatality levels of any that do happen. At the landing zone, anyway.
My question is what happens when two ships happen to emerge from Jump at the same place and time. Velocity would have no real relevance.
 
Which is why a 10% variance in time and distance is ludicrous. Jump has been around for what, 1500-2000 years, and you can't get any closer than 10%?! If I were the CEO of a Megacorp that produced jump drives, I would shoot all my R&D folks if they couldn't fix that in a 10 year period. (And, no, I wouldn't let them quit before their contract was up!)
toast.gif
 
Of Course you are right Fritz 88!
What Megacorp could maintain its market share if the competition could make improvements to say 5% or even 1% variance during 2000 years of trial and error? :confused:
 
Two handwaves:
either the physics of jump don't allow anything better than the 10% variance;
or,
higher TL computers, or more advanced (and larger/more expensive) software, can reduce the jump variance.
 
Easy. It's the MegaCorp with the exclusive monopoly on the Jump Drive tech. They provide the whole Imperium with the only legal (if not the only) source of the critical components, carefully manufactured to a strict tolerance for 10% variance. Naturally there are certain ships that are built to much more precision, or so the conspiracy theorists claim ;)

A similar situation exists in the Solomani space. And of course we all know the Vargr can't be bothered with improving the tech, and the Aslan just copied a crashed Solomani design so they don't know how to improve it. The Zhodani are a few TL behind but could be overall much more accurate in all their ships jumps, not being concerned with duplicity needs to keep the improvement secret to the point of crippling it's military fleets.

I dunno, just a crazy theory. The "real" reason is of course that it's the way jump-space works. There is no other way.

Oh, also there's not quite 2000 years of progress in there iirc. The long-night took some wind out of the sails don't forget.
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
My question is what happens when two ships happen to emerge from Jump at the same place and time. Velocity would have no real relevance.
The simpliest solution is just to say they can't. Whatever it is that prevents a precipitation onto an existing object also prevents simultaneous co-located precipitations.

Sure that's a handwave, but all of jump is a handwave. Why make things harder on yourself?
 
And, daryen, if you can't drop out of j-space into/onto another object, then we get back to the original issue with having an "arrival area" - velocity coming out of jump. I would say there is a standard velocity range within arrival and departure zones. Much like the "no faster than 250 knots below 10,000 feet" rule - which also applies within what used to be called Terminal Control Areas. And, really busy airports have arrival routes that you MUST follow, including speeds, altitudes, etc.

But, Bhoins, in space you have a massive increase in scale of the "sky" in what is known as "big sky, little bullet" theory. The odds are just against that collision. (But, of course, our airplanes don't have a possibility of popping out near the runway off by as much as 10%!)
 
If we ignore the 10% varience then you get into real trouble. Because two ships that leave at the same time for the same destination, at the precise center of the arrival zone will be colocated. The big difference between Jump emergence and Aircraft landing approaches is that you know where all the airplanes are in the area around the runway threshold. You don't know where the spacecraft coming out of jump are or when they will arrive before they actually appear. I thik the 10% is actually a safety margin. You are unlikely to hit the exact same spot at the same time with that variance. But the better your astrogator the more likely that you will hit that spot.


Talk about law of unintended consequences.

For those of you with a problem with the 10% margin.


To paraphrase Capt. Dillon Hunt:
Jump drive isn't the best way to travel faster than light. Its the only way!
 
Go the other way. There are 100,000 ships in a 10,000 km diametre sphere jump zone. Each large enough to carve out a section of space 1km cubed. While sitting in the zone another ship pops in. The chance of a collision assuming a smooth probability of location is still 1 in 5 million.

As each ship with a 1G+ maneuver drive takes less then 20 minutes to leave the jump zone this would indicate that those 100,000 superfreighters have arrived in the last 20 minutes. Meaning the system has a daily traffic of 7.2 million vessels. This gives a rate of jump collision (jumping and ending up accross the same space as another ship) of about 1.5 accidents per day.

So if your system needs 1000 trillion cubic metres of material trucked in daily then you may want to run several drop zones.


Actually, a secondary consideration, especially with larger ships, is the chance of a misjump when you return to realspace near a gravitational object. 100D on a large dreadnaught is a large occluded area.
 
Hi !

Was there even something noted about a thing like jump collisions ?
AFAIK this never was an issue.

So, I agree with daryen that jump exit simply cannot happen in a gravitionally "disturbed" area like the space occupied by another craft.

Together with the advise to emerge with "low" velocity as Fritz suggested or best with a perfect zero vector (in relation to the destination world and as the basic rules suggest), there is little risk left.

Guess its quite reasonable to expect traffic control in civilized regions, meaning jump arrival space maybe for every possible source system is exactly specified, as well as allowed velocity vectors. This decreases risk to zero.

Veltyen, where comes this misjump idea on g-field collision comes from ?
 
where comes this misjump idea on g-field collision comes from ?
Not from the drive, just from the mass of the ships. 100 diametres of a large vessel does get to be a reasonable size.

Take a 800 dTon sphere. While the ship has only got a 30 metre diametre or so, if it counts as coming in closer then 100 diametres (3 km in this case) as if it was deliberately jumping close to a planet then the chance of a misjump goes higher.

I could of course be completely mistaken
 
Daily traffic of 7 million ships (egads - 49 million per week?!) sounds rather high... assuming an average crew + passenger complement of 4 (wild guess), that's 200 million people per week thrumming through a system. Most solar systems don't have that many people. In fact, isn't it a given that "most" people do not leave their homeworld?

Of course, it becomes a YTU matter with these kind of numbers, in which case anything's possible.
 
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