GQ, Line Crews, 1st String... Questions on Crews

[Kilgs]

I was re-reading a Harrington book the other day. Don't look at me like that! But the same crew operates as her primary in almost every time of day when there is a critical incident. I realize this is likely a dramatic move to allow personalities and so on to develop. Named characters being more interesting than redshirts. But it raises some questions...

I have NO knowledge of naval crew stuff. I know that there are "watches" and that the Captain is likely always in the "chair" when things go down.

But what about the other officers? How about the bridge crew? Is there a "1st string" of officers/techs that the captain would draw on no matter the time of day?

When GQ sounds at 3am and the Captain races up to the bridge, s/he takes over. Does the Captain order the current watch crew to stand down and bring up their 1st string? Does the watch crew simply ride out their shift?

If the positions do not change, what do the other officers do? Or other crew? GQ brings everyone out of bed and ready to rock... but what do they all do? I would assume Damage Control would become one task but others?

Or (and now I'm just babbling) is the standard watch really just a skeleton crew? So the 1st string is really the only string and they take their positions when needed despite it not being their shift?

For this discussion's sake, I am discussing ships with crews of 80+. I would imagine a ship of 20-30 or less would have vastly different scheduling/requirements of their crew.

 

[Reban]

Okay I'm going to keep this simple but hopefully understandable, there are many more knowledgeable heads and both serving and veteran personnel here to flesh out and detail an explanation.

A Watch is a portion of the crew (or ship's company) that mans the vessel in shifts to ensure that someone is monitoring or running the ship at all times.

A Watch will usually be half or a third of the crew depending on the type or watch system in place. A Watch may be the minimum or skeleton crew needed to run the ship but more likely it'll be more than adequate to do the things needed to run the ship.

There are different Watch systems for different types of vessel (military/civilian/other) and different types of Watch for different situations, such as an Anchor Watch when the ship is in port or at least on Earth there may be a Winter/summer watch system.

Each watch may operate at different states of readiness for example the range of Blue to Red Alert or General Quarters or Action Stations.

At each of these crew members will have a different job to do or station to man.

If a warship goes to General Quarters or Action Stations that means the entire crew is needed to man their stations.

So in other words the routine of the watch system is suspended and everyone is awake and doing a job associated with their specialty.

Obviously you'll want the best people at the relevant posts or stations so you'll probably have the division heads (the senior person over a particular aspect of ship operation) at their station and in charge. Of course if the ship stays at GQ for hours at a time those people will be relieved at regular intervals by the next most senior people in their division.

Hope that helps. Understanding watches and the fact that everyone on a ship has many jobs and responsibilities is hard to get one's head around.

 

[Reban]

Oh and you had specific questions about Damage Control.

A portion of the Engineering Division crew will probably man some of the damage control parties but they might be better employed directing damage control parties from a central control point (or multiple ones on big ships).

Damage control paries might be formed from crew in the Deck Division who are by in large generalists not specialists. Others like cooks and storekeepers who would otherwise not have a job may make up damage control parties.

Everyone on a ship should have basic training in fire fighting, and what to do in the event of a hull breech etc.


[EDIT] And heres' a good ol' wikipedia article that might help (or possibly just confuse you ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchstanding

 

[Travellerspud]

one example on a ship I crewed we had 3 watches (blueberry, strawberry, and onion...I think the Captain was a little weird) Each watch had a Watch Officer, a helmsman, a Navigator (that was my job), and 5-6 crew. The Captain and First Mate were not part of any watch. There were only 3 meals, but they staggered the watch shift-over by an hour or so. In rough weather there was no hot food.

The watches ran 4 hours on, 4 hours off, and most of the time the Captain was in his cabin below (with his girlfriend). The First Mate ran the ship 99% of the time (from my point of view at least). During arrival/departure from port, and storms, the Captain lead. And during fun activities. 4 hours on, 4 hours off means you sleep 4 hours, then get up and work 4 hours, then you have 4 hours off, then you sleep 4 hours, then get up and work 4 hours, then you have 4 hours off (every 24 hours this repeats). After a while, this routine becomes normal. Bunks were hot-swapped (which never became normal, but exhaustion rules), and we had more crew than bunks, so half slept on the floor of the main cabin, the others on bunks. Storms generally meant the head backed up and the main cabin floor became filthy (there was a bucket).

good times!

 

[Timerover51]

Travellerspud, sounds like you were on a fishing boat, and a good-sized one at that.

With respect to watches and General Quarters, for General Quarters, you are looking at warships, and Classic Traveller does not really do watches on warships well at all. The crewing required is basically enough for one watch, and that is it. If you are doing blockade duty on a planet, or on a system defense boat inside of a gas giant's atmosphere, or anti-pirate patrol, you are going to be operating for more than 8 hours at a stretch, which means that your crew is going to have to be larger, or you burn them out or exhaust them in short order.

The crew size also does not work on a merchant ship unless you assume that you are only in normal space off-planet for a few hours. A cargo run from an inner planet to an outer gas giant may take several days, so watches would be stood.

 

[infojunky]

A portion of the Engineering Division crew will probably man some of the damage control parties but they might be better employed directing damage control parties from a central control point (or multiple ones on big ships).

Damage control parties might be formed from crew in the Deck Division who are by in large generalists not specialists. Others like cooks and storekeepers who would otherwise not have a job may make up damage control parties.

1st off on this topic, Everybody goes to Basic Firefighting school and refresher courses. Top Zeros down to the rawest seaman. As you qualify for advancement you have to sign off on both advanced/specialized damage control tasks from using specialized equipment to how to run a damage control locker (The Locker where DC gear is stored is also the direction center for crew assigned to that locker) Lockers tend to be distributed around the ship and manned by crew whose primary areas of duty where in the area of the locker.

In terms of Crew composition of each Locker, there would be an officer in charge Plus other supporting officers, a selection of Engineering crew Damage control specialists and other like Internal Communications techs and Electricians and the like and then the rest of the crew assigned to said locker generally crew whose primary duties are in the area of the locker. Ordinance crews man the lockers near the magazines, Marines generally man the lockers around the Armory and Special Weapons Magazines. Deck Department Mans the largest and most centrally located Lockers as frequently from those lockers smaller Lockers got support in terms of manpower and trained personnel.

 

[aramis]

With respect to watches and General Quarters, for General Quarters, you are looking at warships, and Classic Traveller does not really do watches on warships well at all. The crewing required is basically enough for one watch, and that is it. If you are doing blockade duty on a planet, or on a system defense boat inside of a gas giant's atmosphere, or anti-pirate patrol, you are going to be operating for more than 8 hours at a stretch, which means that your crew is going to have to be larger, or you burn them out or exhaust them in short order.

Or there's a massive amount more automation than you're thinking of. Hell, there's a lot more now on USN ships than even 20 years ago. The DDX project cuts crew needs by a factor of 5 for battle stations; the staffing is not longer "what do we need for combat" but "What do we need to do routine maintenance?"

I've always assumed that the crew rates are in fact GQ and Docking Stations. Most of the stations only need manning at battle stations and for maintenance.

 

[salochin999]

My experience isn't naval but I guess the same principles apply i.e. you don't need the whole unit active except in a fight (or other critical juncture) so for example if your ship needs ten engineers then they might be split into two watches with the chief engineer and four dudes in one, and his 2ic and four other dudes in the second and they're on a 6 hours on, 6 hours off rota (or three watches as described above).

At critical moments e.g. a fight, docking, about to jump etc, it's all hands on deck for as long as it takes then back to the rota.

On larger ships the senior officers might be on their own rota but all of them are called in at critical moments - so a more realistic Star Trek would have 1/2 or 1/3 of the regular cast yawning a lot.

With naval ships I often give them larger crews than they need split into watches for casualties, damage control etc although how realistic that is given the technology I don't know.

So for example a naval ship needing 20 engineers I might give two watches of 15 each, with the chief engineer on one and his 2ic on the other but in any kind of emergency it's all hands with the surplus detailed to damage control.

 

[rancke]

On larger ships the senior officers might be on their own rota but all of them are called in at critical moments - so a more realistic Star Trek would have 1/2 or 1/3 of the regular cast yawning a lot.

On Star Trek you never see the Executive Officer (Spock is the Science Officer) or the Chief Navigator and Chief Communication officers (those are Lt. Commander's posts). Presumably they spend all crises on the auxiliary bridge, ready to take over when the First Bridge Team gets incapacitated.

On the Love Boat you never see the First Officer... presumably he's busy steering the ship while Captain Stubing is smoozing the passengers.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

On Star Trek you never see the Executive Officer (Spock is the Science Officer) or the Chief Navigator and Chief Communication officers (those are Lt. Commander's posts). Presumably they spend all crises on the auxiliary bridge, ready to take over when the First Bridge Team gets incapacitated.

On the Love Boat you never see the First Officer... presumably he's busy steering the ship while Captain Stubing is smoozing the passengers.


Hans

Doesn't Spock get called "number one" from time to time? I may have misremembered it.

 

[rancke]

Doesn't Spock get called "number one" from time to time? I may have misremembered it.

He does get called that all the time. And the source I have for there being both an XO and a Science Officer is not canon, nor the ranks of the chief communication and navigation officers, which are from the same source. But I've believed in their canonicity for 30 years and as they make a whole lot of sense, I'm not about to let a little thing like lack of canon back-up influence me (In this particular instance).



Hans

 

[salochin999]

He does get called that all the time. And the source I have for there being both an XO and a Science Officer is not canon, nor the ranks of the chief communication and navigation officers, which are from the same source. But I've believed in their canonicity for 30 years and as they make a whole lot of sense, I'm not about to let a little thing like lack of canon back-up influence me (In this particular instance).



Hans

Wiki says he's the First Officer (which fits with him sitting in the Captain's chair when Kirk isn't on the bridge etc) so I think he's 1st Officer but YMMV.

 

[rancke]

Wiki says he's the First Officer (which fits with him sitting in the Captain's chair when Kirk isn't on the bridge etc) so I think he's 1st Officer but YMMV.

Of course it fits. In the show there is no other officer to fill that slot (just as there are no officers superior to Uhura and Sulu in their departments). But I'm fairly certain he is also referred to as Science Officer on numerous occasions.

I don't really think the show's PTB imagined an auxiliary bridge filled with never-to-be-shown mid-to-high ranking officers. Just as I don't really think the Love Boat writers gave one single solitary thought to the existence of a hard-working First Officer on the Pacific Princess (perhaps having an affair with the cruise director, which is why she never seems to hook up with anyone? :devil

I do think that for a ship with a crew of 430, the Enterprise is rather undersupplied in the senior officer category.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

Of course it fits. In the show there is no other officer to fill that slot (just as there are no officers superior to Uhura and Sulu in their departments). But I'm fairly certain he is also referred to as Science Officer on numerous occasions.

I don't really think the show's PTB imagined an auxiliary bridge filled with never-to-be-shown mid-to-high ranking officers. Just as I don't really think the Love Boat writers gave one single solitary thought to the existence of a hard-working First Officer on the Pacific Princess (perhaps having an affair with the cruise director, which is why she never seems to hook up with anyone? :devil

I do think that for a ship with a crew of 430, the Enterprise is rather undersupplied in the senior officer category.


Hans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock

"Spock serves aboard the starship Enterprise, as science officer and first officer"

I don't know what counts as canon in Star trek but Wiki at least seems pretty clear.

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0001439/bio

"He was promoted to first officer when Captain James T. Kirk took command of the vessel in 2265. He served in that role during Kirk's legendary five-year mission (2265-2270)."

http://www.startrek.com/database_article/spock

"2265 – As lieutenant commander, named first officer and science officer under Capt. James T. Kirk aboard Enterprise; promoted to commander soon after"

 

[Kaeto]

In some episodes Spock is introduced as the First Officer and in others as the Science Officer.

 

[whulorigan]

On Star Trek you never see the Executive Officer (Spock is the Science Officer) or the Chief Navigator and Chief Communication officers (those are Lt. Commander's posts).

Doesn't Spock get called "number one" from time to time? I may have misremembered it.

On Star Trek: TOS, Spock held down the dual jobs of both Science Officer and Executive Officer at the same time (and held the rank of full Commander from midway thru the 1st Season onward ^*). He is called both Science Officer and First Officer in the dilaogue in the series. This was not usual practice, but rather due to Spock's training and capabilities (supposedly). In the 2nd Pilot ("Where No Man Has Gone Before"), it is acually somewhat unclear whether the Executive Officer is Lt. Cdr. Spock (who is clearly referred to as "Science Officer"), or Lt. Cdr. Gary Mitchell, who is the Helmsman/Chief Navigator.

Spock was never referred to as "Number One". In the First Pilot, The Cage, the Helmsman (a woman played by Majel Barrett) is always called "Number One" (i.e. the Executive Officer) by Captain Pike, and has no name given in the dialogue. Spock was Science Officer at the time (according to "The Menagerie" which used the footage from "The Cage" in its episode), and clearly holds the position of Second Officer (otherwise known as First Lieutenant) under Captain Pike's command.

* - There is an officer-rank inconsistency early in the 1st season where several people with Commander's stripes are referred to as Lt. Cdr. in dialogue:

1) Mr. Spock wears full Commander's stripes but is referred to as Lieutenant Commander in dialog (this was corrected to "Commander" midway thru the 1st Season);
2) Mr. Giotto (Security Chief) in "Devil in the Dark" wears full Commander's stripes but is referred to as Lieutenant Commander in dialogue;
3) Mr. Benjamin Finney (Records Officer) in "Court Martial" wears full Commander's stripes but is referred to as Lieutenant Commander in dialogue.
​

 

[aramis]

Wiki says he's the First Officer (which fits with him sitting in the Captain's chair when Kirk isn't on the bridge etc) so I think he's 1st Officer but YMMV.

In the first episode, he's SciO, but when the 1O, Cdr Gary Mitchell is executed by Kirk, Kirk appoints Spock as 1O.

 

[salochin999]

In the first episode, he's SciO, but when the 1O, Cdr Gary Mitchell is executed by Kirk, Kirk appoints Spock as 1O.

That would make sense.

 

[salochin999]

Anyway back to the main point, the XO / First Officer / Number One etc isn't going to be in his bunk during a battle because it's not his shift - "All hands on deck" etc.

 

[Kaeto]

In Battle everyone will be up and working. Even if they have no other skill usable in combat they can always carry stretchers.