Grand Duke
- Thread starter Adam Dray
- Start date
They are grandchildren of an Emperor. Royals below prince, not nobles, if you see the distinction.
It's a borrowed from the russian system.
The current head of the Romanov family is styled Grand Duchess; her Great Great Grandfather was a Tsar.
At various points after Piotr I, Grand Counts and Grand Barons were used for various non-heir Royals. The Grand simply indicated it was a royal, not a noble, title. It was usually accompanied by an annuity or small fief.
Note that Russians used the following titles...
Emperor
Prince
Duke
Count
Baron
Duke was not part of the Noble titles, but Prince was... Finland was theoretically the Grand Ducal fief of the Tsar's Uncle...
There were ...
Ancient Nobles - Princes, Counts, and Barons - heritable. Enfeoffed.
Titled Nobles: Princes, Counts, and Barons - heritable, enfeoffed.
Honor Nobles: children of Ancient or Titled. Non-heritable, but spouse uses and retains in widowhood. No fief.
Reward Titles: Princes, counts, barons - non-heritable, but spouse retains for life.
Heritable unenfeoffed: Usually a lateral from a reward. Children use while alive, spouse uses and retains until death. Heir retains.
Sound familiar?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The English system is easier.
The firstborn son inherits everything, including any titles.
Depending on the parental nobility grade, his siblings can be referred to as Lord, Lady, or the Honourable.
And then you either marry into another noble house, money, bribe the ruling party, do something bureaucratically brilliant or stupid in battle.
The firstborn son inherits everything, including any titles.
Depending on the parental nobility grade, his siblings can be referred to as Lord, Lady, or the Honourable.
And then you either marry into another noble house, money, bribe the ruling party, do something bureaucratically brilliant or stupid in battle.
Spanish system is similar, but untitled noble sons were called hidlagos (from hijos de algo, roughtly "sons of something"), the most famous of them probably being Don Quijote. I guess the equivalent status in England would be squire, once it became akin of a lesser title...
See that in V&V we're told that for Vilani the third son inheritated titles, and I guess other sons were akin those hidalgos or squires, that had to find their role in life having the advantages of family connections and status, but not being nobles "per se".
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If you have the right ancestors, and hopefully trusted funded or self sustaining, you're still in the aristocracy even if you don't have a title.
The first son inherits, the second is sent to the army, and the third joins the clergy, which would be the other two national institutions to infiltrate.
Substitute the bureaucracy, navy, business, diplomat corps and colonial service. Possibly academia.
That maintains it's own old boys network.
The first son inherits, the second is sent to the army, and the third joins the clergy, which would be the other two national institutions to infiltrate.
Substitute the bureaucracy, navy, business, diplomat corps and colonial service. Possibly academia.
That maintains it's own old boys network.
And, excepting the titles, very unlike the 3I.
Another system to check out is the Nobility structure of Pre-Revolutionary France, which also bears some similarities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nobility
Also note that on the European continent (such as Germany & Italy), the noble title would often be inherited by all of the male descendants (who would all be considered "noble"), though the lands/fief would only go to the principal heir, leaving many younger-son "nobles" without significant financial means.
Bolshoi Piotr intentionally made reward and rank-derived titles non-hereditary to give the sons of such nobles incentives to do government service. He provided for lateral to heritable and then enfeoffed to provide incentives to keep working...
It all fell apart around 1900...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I think in France custom required that the inheritance be split, leaving a lot of aristocracy with really small holdings.
The English first past the post system left it up to the patriarch how to provide for his excess progeny.
The Roman and Japanese system of adoption, either from from other family branches or through marriage gave some flexibility in ensuring meritocracy.
The English first past the post system left it up to the patriarch how to provide for his excess progeny.
The Roman and Japanese system of adoption, either from from other family branches or through marriage gave some flexibility in ensuring meritocracy.
