Proof of idenity in the OTU?

[whartung]

If you leave a planet yes the planetary authority (and perhaps even the imperium) knows you’ve left (maybe) but when you arrive at your destination you could be anyone with any documentation - with no way to verify (modern passports are verified almost instantaneously as being real or fake).

It's straightforward to have signed data on a tamper resistant carrier that can be readily verified when arriving at a starport. We can do that today, its straightforward to put signed, digital, biometric data in a secure chip and it is readily verified, you don't need "network access" to validate the ID or read the data.

Aside from that, the starport system Traveller has pretty much allows one to evade the authorities simply by being ship's crew and never leaving the starport.

I'm pretty sure when ships come to dock, their crew manifests are part of the arrival paperwork. Whether customs or anyone else actually goes through the crew and checks their ID, assuming they don't leave the ship, I don't know, but they probably have the right to do that. It can certainly be a crime for a captain to submit incomplete paperwork (i.e. neglecting to list a crew member).

Now, after say, 8 to 10 months of being off the radar, you show up somewhere with a new passport and ID in another name that were officially issued somewhere like that.

If it's officially issued, then it is what it is. The US Government can created "fake" IDs all day long. So can any other state. But it turns out that the countries tend to not favor other countries where that's common practice. "We've been hearing that your planet is giving out free IDs to pirates and criminals, so we're going to take you off our "preferred trade status" list." "Soft Power" kind of stuff.

My issue with ID is what a lot of this thread as argued: space is really, really large, communication is really, really slow (okay, FTL but we are talking weeks or months). and a wide variety of technological levels that may or may not support various ID protocols.

Communication is really really slow, but travel by people is even slower. See below.

That’s an immense amount to data to constantly be transporting on xboats. Surely the 3rd Imperium has more important data (trade and taxation data) to send around rather than the warrants of some dude who allegedly offed someone.

Criminal data is important because it turns out that most criminals are by their nature, criminals, vs state actors. And crime tends to follow those people wherever they go, so other authorities are keen to know when criminals are arriving in their midst.

The Express Network is like an "experienced crew" doing the "bucket brigade" thing on a professional basis

Indeed, it is a bucket brigade, the communication is bursty, and it's travel based.

But the key point, addressing the "really, really slow" part above, is that the communication never stops.

At the very beginning, yea, it's a race against time. You, as a traveller, can keep up on the wave front of the messaging.

But the messaging never sleeps. A simple example is a ship arrives with electronic messaging, and may beam it to the planet while it's still 100D out. "Tetracycline IV control, this is the Wandering Fox, we've just arrived from jump, and scheduled to orbit in 7 hours. We are forwarding a mail data dump from Pegasus III." "Roger Wandering Fox, we're receiving your data." One hour later, that data in outbound on some other ship. Eventually, the people need to sleep. The messaging keeps going.

Comms are laggy, people are laggier.

 

[Bartleby]

Criminal data is important because it turns out that most criminals are by their nature, criminals, vs state actors. And crime tends to follow those people wherever they go, so other authorities are keen to know when criminals are arriving in their midst.

Assuming you trust what another planet calls a crime. And you trust them to report crimes accurately.

IMTU Imperial criminals are one thing. Fleeing a planet with some sort of religious dictatorship where they punish people for not wearing blue on Thursdays is another. The planet can call you a mass murderer on the loose, but unless you have something to gain from handing over fugitives from that planet, your law enforcement is busy enough and not interested in getting involved. Especially if they doubt you are actually a criminal.

Also, IMTU, sending an Xboat message from A to B is one thing. Subscribing to a service that every week you send out criminal updates to all planets is another, and it costs. It is not a good use of resources for some planets to spend money so every single planet in Chartered Space knows someone is suspected of robbing a bank in your neck of the woods. Especially if you know that most won't care.

Mind you my MTU is based on what I want, not what I think makes sense (though I think I can make it make sense). I don't want all planets working together like some analogy of Interpol today. I want planets to not know or care about others (even know if they exist) and I want Travellers to really feel like they are travelling to an entirely new culture whenever they land. I do everything I can to ensure they don't feel like they are getting their passport stamped and flying from Europe to America.

Of course their are exceptions. And those are fun. A cluster of planets in a subsector with like-minded approaches to criminals can and will share data on suspects. That might catch somebody off-guard. Or if players are aware of it they need to get out of that cluster before the news arrives. "Get across State lines" as old American films used to say.

And then there are bounty hunters - which if you piss off a world government enough are a worthwhile investment. And far more prevalent in a universe where planets don't keep track of each others criminals.

 

[whartung]

unless you have something to gain from handing over fugitives from that planet, your law enforcement is busy enough and not interested in getting involved

Obviously there will be culture clashes between societies. That's all part of that "soft power" thing I mentioned earlier. Isolated states tend to not participate in the "galactic" community, and suffer from it. The Imperium, honestly, doesn't care about these things per se. The Imperial Marshal Service probably doesn't either.

"Society A is an oppressive dicatorship!" "Are they paying their annual Imperium dues?" "Yes" "Well, then what's that to us?"

But if they stumble across someone with an Imperial warrant (whether they were wearing blue or not), the Marshal service is obliged to honor the warrant and ship them home. Now, will Society B rat out Refugee R who has a warrant to the Marshal Service in the first place? Not necessarily. Could have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with folks from Society A. But that doesn't mean they're going to offer them formal asylum either. Meaning, if, by some chance, they do end up catching the eye of the Marshal Service, then away they go.

 

[Bartleby]

That all makes sense. But I think I imagine, IMOTU, a much smaller "galactic community" than in yours. In mine there really is no galactic community. There clumps of alliances, but no real agreed upon "norm" for how a society runs.

I agree if the IN is after you then it is like Firefly, they will keep coming and find you eventually. Being wanted by the Imperium is, to me, exactly as you described it is for you.

Honestly, your interpretation is all very reasonable and it has helped me think about how I might run things. It is just fundamentally different in that space the rules leave blank for us all to fill in on our own.

Bottom line for me: if you rob a bank on some world their best chance at justice is ensuring you don't leave. Once you are gone, or they think you are gone, they can send a notice to those planets they have extradition deals with, but you are essentially free.

But you better be careful if you ever go back. And maybe they sent someone after you...

 

[Spinward Flow]

And maybe they sent someone after you...

Enter the Bounty Hunters ...

 

[TamsinP]

Enter the Bounty Hunters ...

are here...

 

[Condottiere]

Doug the Bounty Hunter

 

[chipla]

Obviously there will be culture clashes between societies. That's all part of that "soft power" thing I mentioned earlier. Isolated states tend to not participate in the "galactic" community, and suffer from it. The Imperium, honestly, doesn't care about these things per se. The Imperial Marshal Service probably doesn't either.

"Society A is an oppressive dicatorship!" "Are they paying their annual Imperium dues?" "Yes" "Well, then what's that to us?"

But if they stumble across someone with an Imperial warrant (whether they were wearing blue or not), the Marshal service is obliged to honor the warrant and ship them home. Now, will Society B rat out Refugee R who has a warrant to the Marshal Service in the first place? Not necessarily. Could have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with folks from Society A. But that doesn't mean they're going to offer them formal asylum either. Meaning, if, by some chance, they do end up catching the eye of the Marshal Service, then away they go.

As far am I’m aware the OTU Third Imperium doesn’t have a marshal’s service. Correct me if wrong.

The closest they have that I’ve found are Special Branch and the Inquisitorial Branch, both of which are concerned with Imperial Law rather than planetary law.

 

[whartung]

As far am I’m aware the OTU Third Imperium doesn’t have a marshal’s service.

The lack of documentation doesn't mean that they don't exist. If they don't exist at an Imperial level, they exist at another level. The simple truth is that some kind of intersystem organization will emerge. So, whether Imperial or not, Something(tm) exists to fill that need, and the need is certainly real.

And if it exists at a finer level (subsector, sector, whatever), those agencies will cooperate.

 

[mike wightman]

Until there is a definitive write up of the Imperial Ministry of Justice the closest I can find to Imperial Marshals are members of the IISS Security Branch:

The Security Branch is charged with providing security and law enforcement for
the Scout Service. Security Branch Scouts serve as police enforcers on Scout property.
as commandos or shipboard light troops, for special Scout activities. and as
clandestine agents for Intelligence Branch. Agents of the llSS Security Branch have
great authority to arrest, detain. or question individuals suspected of violations of
Imperial law, and can demand cooperation from local authorities as the need arises.

 

[casquilho]

And if it exists at a finer level (subsector, sector, whatever), those agencies will cooperate.

Would they for sure? I mean I look how agencies can't even seem to cooperate within the United States let alone world wide today. Multiply that by worlds (some of which are balkanized) and I wonder if the assumption they would all lock step and work together is a realistic expectation of the Traveller Universe. Note: I am not saying some cooperation would not exist, I just am questioning to what degree and to what level.

 

[Krikkitone]

I think that there is a difference between Imperial Law violations (your warrants are spread throughout the 3I) and planetary law violations. Planetary law violation warrants will spread to worlds that have extradition agreements. And those may depend on the severity of the crime. A warrant from a law H world probably won’t be honored many other places.

But you probably would have some type of Imperial ID to allow to to land at an Imperial Starport (your ship definitely would…and crew + passengers would probably be on the list as well)

 

[Enoki]

I also think that bounty hunting, except for the worst of the worst, is likely out of the question. The cost of ship travel between worlds alone would be prohibitive. Then if you toss in at some point the bounty hunter is faced with say, there's 6 different systems the person they're chasing could have gone to next, it's going to get really difficult, really fast.

 

[whartung]

I am not saying some cooperation would not exist, I just am questioning to what degree and to what level.

It's always going to be some degree. We have our own frustrations simply getting cooperation between the States and Federal authorities. There's always going to be friction...and lawyers. Always with the lawyers.

I mean, broadly, if a US murderer flees to Europe, the odds of cooperation are very high. These countries are all on pretty good terms, we don't want their fugitive murderers, and they don't want ours. Are they going to posse up and mount a huge manhunt? Unlikely. But given solid intelligence, yea, I bet they'll track someone down and ship 'em back.

Now, countries in, say, South America? I bet good chance with Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, perhaps Ecuador and Bolivia. Central America? Those are probably more man power issues than anything. Willing, but not able, but there's always corruption to be considered as well. Venezuela? Big fat NO there.

So, obviously its a spectrum of cooperation, diplomacy, etc.

But its also the tenet of the "long arm of the law". The warrants don't go away. They're always lurking over the head of the criminals, and since the criminals likely enjoy living amongst society, rather than camping in a jungle, or a "third world country", there's always a chance of contact and discovery. Places that host ne'er do wells tend to have a bit of corruption, tend to want to get paid, tend to get cranky and chatty when they don't get paid, tend to extort folks that are on the lamb. "What're they going to do, go to the police!?"

Obviously if you slip into a society and stay quiet, and no one "knows the secret", you're in good shape.

But, again, "civilized" societies tend to frown on crime and criminals, so they set up institutions to enforce laws and prosecute them. Ubiquitous, "cheap" travel makes the problem harder, so they make new policies to empower themselves to prosecute these crimes.

"Frontiers" are only frontiers for a short time (decades at best), and if they become bastions for outlaw behavior, "law" arises to combat it. Folks, in general, prefer law and order over chaos. What they don't do is go "oh well, nothing we can do" and wash their hands of it.

So, given interstellar societies that are hundreds of years old, that's plenty of time for Bad Things to happen to Good People, and for institutions to arise to address those things. Consider Interpol. Interpol is TINY, like 1000 people. It's not so much an enforcement agency as it is a communications and coordination agency working with local authorities in the client countries. In contrast to the FBI, which is very large, but separate enforcement arm, but also unique to our particular form of government with the distinct State authorities that we have here. But, in the end, something like the FBI was inevitable. Something like Interpol was inevitable. For these star spanning societies, these institutions are not only inevitable, by "now", they're hundreds of years old and well entrenched.

 

[whartung]

Then if you toss in at some point the bounty hunter is faced with say, there's 6 different systems the person they're chasing could have gone to next, it's going to get really difficult, really fast.

That's when the Bounty Hunter goes back to the bounty board and finds some easier fish to catch. They're not going to chase someone across 6 systems. They're going chase someone across THEIR system. If the fugitive leaves, some other bounty hunter in that system will grab the ticket and start the hunt.

There's always the rich, adventurer who has nothing but time on their hands and money to spend willing to perhaps chase someone far and wide. But, like most people, bounty hunters are lazy and broke. It's not the lucrative of a business.

 

[kilemall]

I’m thinking

The lack of documentation doesn't mean that they don't exist. If they don't exist at an Imperial level, they exist at another level. The simple truth is that some kind of intersystem organization will emerge. So, whether Imperial or not, Something(tm) exists to fill that need, and the need is certainly real.

And if it exists at a finer level (subsector, sector, whatever), those agencies will cooperate.

Short answer in my opinion, planetary warrants and Imperial warrants.

Planetary warrants serveable within 10D of the planet and its colonies, except in starports and possibly fiefs. Not serveable in high space or other planets unless there is an extradition treaty.

Sworn out on the prosecution planet, with bounty authorization/delegation defined then.

Too difficult to manage extradition treaties planet to planet for referees, easy check would be roll Law Level or below on planet criminals are caught to see if a treaty is in place between the planets covering the crime.

Somewhat more crunchy are two levels of common extradition treaty worlds sign to- a minimal low LL one covering murder, major harm, stolen goods/fraud above x Cr (say 100000 to start), kidnapping, etc., and a high LL comprehensive treaty where warrants of all extraditions/law is honored.

For the low treaty, roll LL or higher, for the high treaty roll LL or below.

Imperial warrants (or maybe WIC, Warrant for Imperial Crime) have to do with trade and Imperial power- piracy, interstellar fraud or interstellar transport's of stolen goods, murder/harm/breaching/kidnapping on Imperial territory (high space, Imperial bases, fiefs, Red Zones), slavery, war crimes especially if they breach the Rules of War, ecocide, genetically altering against consent, etc. Breach of contract might not be prison time but definitely an Imperial crime and damages possible.

Servable on Imperial territory including high space and starports, technically on planets too but at discretion of subsector government. Some bounties are not worth a revolt and the offender is trapped on their final landing for life, keeping them from further disrupting the Imperium.

Sworn out for emergency like piracy at any A starport which will have Imperial courts (possibly B), more normally at the subsector capital.

Planetary warrants don’t have rights to seizure on Imperial territory, but if the crime somehow qualifies to be Imperial too, those get requested and sworn at the subsector capital. The suspect can then be caught and if convicted serve first the Imperial sentence then the planetary one.

Planetary warrants could be pursued by agents of that world, but as noted most are not worth resources especially ships unless it’s really bad or really personal for powerful people. Most of those are going to go to bounty hunters.

Note that if planetary agents or bounty hunters execute a capture/termination in Imperial territory or transport their fugitives from a non-extradition world without proper jurisdiction warrants, they are in violation of Imperial law and could become targets of a WIC.

That seems to be the most interesting way I could think of to keep bounty hunting a thing.

Got to limit the planetary crazy while supporting Imperial rule, keep them out of each others way, and not let pirates just pull over and kidnap at will.

 

[Enoki]

That's when the Bounty Hunter goes back to the bounty board and finds some easier fish to catch. They're not going to chase someone across 6 systems. They're going chase someone across THEIR system. If the fugitive leaves, some other bounty hunter in that system will grab the ticket and start the hunt.

There's always the rich, adventurer who has nothing but time on their hands and money to spend willing to perhaps chase someone far and wide. But, like most people, bounty hunters are lazy and broke. It's not the lucrative of a business.

But that implies that they're normally looking for people who broke some local law, not some Imperial one, or someone who's wanted on a system 15 jumps away. So, Butch and Sundance from planet Hole-in-the-Wall who are now or planet Umptysquat quite a few jumps from where they were regularly robbing banks and aren't particularly wanted locally. There's nothing on them in the backwater mediocre tech level of the world they're on. The 'fly under the radar.' It only becomes a problem when they run low on cash and start robbing banks locally...

On the other hand, the Imperial government wants you dead or alive--preferably dead--for crimes against the 'Good order of the Empire,' or there are 12 different systems that want you likewise for you evil, nefarious, and massive criminal acts and combined are paying several million credits to 'Bring you to justice.'

For that sort of thing, you might have a bounty hunting crew with a paid off ship--in whatever condition and size that may be--that are on your trail because now you'll make them several months, possibly years, worth of income. But you really have to piss somebody important off to get to that point.

 

[whartung]

But that implies that they're normally looking for people who broke some local law, not some Imperial one, or someone who's wanted on a system 15 jumps away.

They're looking for whomever might appear on the bounty board for whatever reason. I don't know how they appear on the bounty board, particularly those from "15 systems away". But that's what the bounty board is for. To inform hunters of available bounties. Like that TV show in Cowboy Bebop. A hunter on System A tracking Fugitive B was perhaps closing in when B jumped on to a ship for System C. The hunter forwards the info that carries into the bounty board of System C, because that the Code of the Bounty Hunter -- Lock 'em all up! "Not paying 8000Cr, one way, for a 15000Cr bounty". But they can send an email.

But remember, to get 15 systems away you likely need to go through 15 jurisdictions of starports, all asking for crew and passenger manifests. Sure, you can have someone with 15 weeks of food and supplies on a ship wilderness refuel. But I think its fair to say that's not only on the very edge of the bell curve of probability, it drops off the end.

For that sort of thing, you might have a bounty hunting crew with a paid off ship--in whatever condition and size that may be--that are on your trail because now you'll make them several months, possibly years, worth of income.

That's unlikely. The problem there is, paid off or not, starships cost MCr per year to operate. If bounties are that lucrative to pay for crews of such ships, barring them being degenerate gamblers, then that "one bounty" is a lotto jackpot -- and they quit. Because bounty hunting is dangerous work. This goes back to that "why don't we just sell the ship and retire to Tahiti IV" argument.

No, bounty hunters are mostly local. Goverment backed bounty hunters with travel budgets may well be able to flit about chasing extra dangerous folks. But it's usually just cheaper to send the warrant and bounty by email to the other systems and hope someone sends a fugitive back postage due.

There's plenty of room in the cracks for "adventure", it's not impermeable, you can justify anything. But, routinely, all of this, is just a job for someone trying to pay a mortgage, and help keep their communities safe.

 

[Spinward Scout]

As far am I’m aware the OTU Third Imperium doesn’t have a marshal’s service. Correct me if wrong.

I'm not sure if IRIS is canon. But it was supposed to be similar to a Marshal's Service, IIRR

Anyone leaving their home planet should be issued a Passport of some sort. Issued from the Imperium would be the best option, but how would that work? A Passport in the real world is issued by the citizen's home country. That's probably not happening in pre-industrial Tech Levels. But maybe Starports can issue them. Of course, anyone joining Imperial Military Service would be given Military ID.

 

[mike wightman]

I think that there is a difference between Imperial Law violations (your warrants are spread throughout the 3I) and planetary law violations. Planetary law violation warrants will spread to worlds that have extradition agreements. And those may depend on the severity of the crime. A warrant from a law H world probably won’t be honored many other places.

But you probably would have some type of Imperial ID to allow to to land at an Imperial Starport (your ship definitely would…and crew + passengers would probably be on the list as well)

There are likely to be crimes which are planetary but also break Imperial law. Murder is the obvious one - although I could see a case for a local culture that allows it.