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Hardest SF possible

kafka47

SOC-14 5K
Marquis
I coming up with a list of things to prepare my players for a 2320AD. I need to convey the difference between Space Opera and Hard SF. Can people come up with a list of things that might exist in the nearly there but not fantastic technology from what we know about now? Otherwise, what are some of the elements of the Hardest SF that you feel, read, project will be...
 
Hard SF

No antigravity or grav deck plates, of course. Therefore, rotating sections for simulated gravity.

No inertial dampening. Therefore, low acceleration, and decks are orthogonal to the drives.

At the most, one nonextinct alien race.

No more than a dozen extinct alien races within a few hundred light-years' sphere.

No more than a dozen potentially inhabitable worlds within said sphere. And even so, atmospheres will usually be "tainted" or worse.

Alien poisons probably can't affect us, but alien critters can be quite deadly nonetheless.

Fusion is ok.

Ion drives and fusion rockets. Bussard ramjets?
 
All the above, plus a few pet theories of my own:

Roughly equal chances of right/left amino acids and sugars, thus roughly equal chances of nutrious food in a planetary environment (and of humans being able to support alien life, as well).

Alien races would be either "Apes or Angels" -- they would be more likely to be far ahead or far behind in their evolution relative to our own, then be equally evolved.

IF the impact theory of lunar formation is true, then those worlds that have no impact-produced moon would likely have little or no heavy metals near their surfaces.

No psionics.

No "star drives," teleportation/transporters, or other violations of causality.

No "Zero-Point" energy sources, or other violations of thermodynamic laws (unless some quasars are actually the results of a race's first ZPE experiments ... and their last).

Not everybody out there speaks English!
 
Thank you, Keklas, I agree with all your points completely -- especially the Apes or Angels part.
 
Originally posted by Plankowner:
No Blasters

No Force Fields

Guns KILL (quickly)
"Traveller is ... Shotguns in Space!" (From a list of top 100 phrases that describe Traveller.)

One of the best ways to kill enemies from a distance is to fill them with a lot of kinetic energy. And if that energy must be contained in a lot of little lead pellets, then so be it.

I think that we will see a myriad of variations on this concept, no matter where we go in the universe.

And one more to add...

Not every person who wears a red shirt will be the first to die on an alien world!
 
Originally posted by Heretic Keklas Rekobah:
*snip*One of the best ways to kill enemies from a distance is to fill them with a lot of kinetic energy. And if that energy must be contained in a lot of little lead pellets, then so be it.
*snip*[/QB]
I´ve heard this described as "The best way to kill people is by poking holes into them. The civilization with the best hole-poking technology usually wins."

On the hole-poking front, I suppose gyrojet and railgun ("gauss") weapons are possible.
 
Originally posted by Heretic Keklas Rekobah:
Alien races would be either "Apes or Angels" -- they would be more likely to be far ahead or far behind in their evolution relative to our own, then be equally evolved.

There are several elegant (and less elegant) ways of circumventing this in a game-world while not breaking this rule; these are the bio-mod explanation (i.e. "they are not aliens, they are humans with grafts/gengineering/implants/weird culture"), the ancient astronauts explanation used by Traveller (i.e. "they are not aliens, but Humans or other earth lieforms transplanted by someone onto other worlds, and thus having comparatively little time to evolve independently") and the AI explanation (i.e. "they are not aliens - but rogue manmade sentient machines").

that said, hard scifi tends to avoid aliens altogether, mainly due to all the variables and unknowns involved in such a matter as xenobiology and/or to keep things focused on Humans and how they react to certain tech or other scifi conditions (Kim Stanely Robinson's Mars trilogy goes in this direction and is quite hard scifi as well).

No "star drives," teleportation/transporters, or other violations of causality.
Is there a form of FTL which is even remotely hard scifi, or is it a handy handwave for easy interstellar gaming?

Ofcourse, alot of hard scifi confines itself to our solar system to avoid this issue...
 
(Was it just me or does the topic line of this thread read like some "Discount Cialis" spam in your email box?)

I agree and disagree with the points above at the same time. For instance, "Apes of Angels" is certainly true of Hard SF, but 2300 isn't that hard of SF.

1) Flagrant violations of physics as we know will be few. Usually one or two. Extremely realistic SF may have none at all. 2320 has one violation for the sake of FTL travel.

2) No Force/Psi/Magic. No Jedi Knights, no Psi Corps, no "Earth Goddess" archetype (hot) women with empathic abilities.

3) Nobody brings a knife to a gunfight. Nor do they bring lightsabers or cutlasses. They may have sonic stunners or similar exotic weaponry, but just because some people are members of the SCA doesn't mean that in the year 40,000 people will be fighting with glowing swords and chainsaw battleaxes.

4) Few Handwavium Solutions. Hard Sci-Fi tends to be partially about the implications of technology with an emphasis that there is a price to be paid for the benefits of anything, especially technology. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. You won't have magic thrust plates to lift starships cheaply and cleanly into orbit, instead you have rockets, slingshots, and orbital elevators. You don't have artificial gravity to keep filming costs down. Ships use centrifuge type arrangements to simulate gravity or go without and deal with the associated issues in other ways. Industry produces pollution of some sort. It may not necessarily be the byproducts we're familiar with today (the future may not necessarily have 55-gallon drums dumped in waterways or coal smog), but there will be other problems, just as ugly and pressing, that people will have to deal with.

5) The Future Is "Aliens" not "Star Wars." You don't have cheap plentiful fusion power for levitating cities, 3000 ton tanks with Iridium armor, and so on. Instead, hard sci-fi tends to have a gritty, industrialized feel to it. Instead of spotlessly clean glass cities inhabited by tall beautiful in shimmery tunics and lucite sandals, there'll be garbage in the streets, graffiti on the walls, and homeless people. Ships have carbon scoring and are dinged and dented. Exploration vehicles are heavily built and have fenders, rollcages, and look like they've been rebuilt and jury-rigged to function. You can still find switchboxes, bundles of cables sticking out from behind wall panels. Cutting edge technology tends to be heavy, expensive, and fragile.

6) Fewer Fantasy Archetypes. Hard Sci-Fi generally tries to stay away from fantasy archetypes. You don't have elves and dwarves or entire cultures/races that overemphasize the same narrow ranges of human traits as elves and dwarves just because the author played a lot of D&D and can't get away from his or her love of such archetypes. For instance:

6a) A humanocentric world. The stories of good hard sf are about humans. They might be genetically engineered so they hardly look like humans, or they might pretty similar to us. The societies they live in may be radically different from our own, or they may be quite similar. If you have players who think that humans are boring and would rather play elves or talking cartoon animals, there's going to be issues.

6b) The Human Experience is not necessarily universalizable. Aliens don't just fulfill some required archetype of the human mind just because we'd like one. Indeed, we may decide they're intelligent but come to realize we can't have meaningful communication with them beyond the most basic of concepts because they're so different from us. They're not boogeymen who are brutal, militaristic, and have an inexplicable lust for human women whom they'll put into metal bikinis and make dance for them at the first opportunity. Nor are they are our "star brothers" (or "star goddesses") who are wise, far-seeing, live in harmony with the universe, love pyramids, and see us as foolish children (I guess you could add that they certainly don't look like Caucasian humans with blond hair and blue eyes). In neither case do they vote conservative or liberal just because that's how the GM thinks the world should work.

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Is there a form of FTL which is even remotely hard scifi, or is it a handy handwave for easy interstellar gaming?
It might not be necessary.

For instance, consider two key advances made: relativistic star travel (like some significant percentage of lightspeed) and anagathics technology. If the average human lifespan stretches out to 300 (or even 500), and age 200 becomes the new 30 years old, then a 10 year round trip from here to Alpha Centauri might not be so onerous to people left behind.

There would certainly be ramifications. There probably wouldn't be an interstellar government. The effects of such longevity as well as the "Forever War"/"Urashima Taro"/"a night in the faerie circle" type effects of being "disconnected from time" by dropping out of communication for so decades while going from star to star would be something to remember as well.

But exploring the ramifications of technology is a big part of hard sci-fi.
 
A good HARD SCIENCE substitute for aliens would be genetically engineered colonists for non-Eden planets. They might be short and very muscular with large heavy bones for a world with a 2.5 G surface gravity, but they will not be dogs or cats or bears.

(and the others were correct about avoiding fantasy archtypes)
 
firefly, outland, 2001,2010,high colonies,transhuman space, space 1889 (just kidding!), space:above and beyond (at a push), blue planet, alien, aliens & 2300AD at a bigger push.
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Is there a form of FTL which is even remotely hard scifi?
In a word, no. Or yes depending on your definition of remotely hard sci-fi
(wormholes may fit but that's about all I can think of of the top of my head)

If kafka wants the hardest edge to his sci-fi then he's probably going to be limited to realistic engines and either going very slow taking decades or centuries to reach the nearest stars and using generation ships or some variation of hibernation ships. Even the fastest ships, probably nuclear pulse drives, will likely only attain a fraction of light speed travel. Maybe as much as 10% of c.

So, all the worry about "apes or angels" out there is likely to be moot. The sphere of exploration won't be big enough to have encountered anything. Not just a lack of intelligent life but any life or even planets particularly suited to life as we know it without a lot of history in the backstory. More than the 300 odd years anyway.

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
...or is it a handy handwave for easy interstellar gaming?
Yep...

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Ofcourse, alot of hard scifi confines itself to our solar system to avoid this issue...
...and yep.
 
Welcome aboard Nyrath :D Only slightly belatedly ;)

Just wanted to mention that even without FTL or some shortcut to the stars one can still have a great game.

Imagine a slow hibernation ship leaving Earth in the next century (for any number of reasons, we have the technology) and travelling to a near star with a recently discovered habitable/terraformable planet.

They arrive in say a hundred years and change and find that contact with Earth was lost sometime during the trip. They are probably not surprised (one of the reasons for going would be a suspicion that civilization here is on the verge of collapse) and go about building their colony on the world. The terraforming could even have been started in advance by fast robotic probes.

A few decades pass and the 21st Century settlers on New Home have visitors. The 24th Century survivors of whatever happened on Earth who are now far advanced technologically but not socially (wars can do that) have arrived aboard their much faster ships (say a couple decades for the trip). And they are here to settle this new world (having lost the records of the earlier expedition they are surprised to find life here, especially human life that speaks old Earth languages).

Each sees the other as an enemy of course. Let the conflict begin.

Though some on each side may see the reality of cooperation as better, they'll be the minority.

Just as one idea. Which is nothing like 2300 of course so it may not be what you're looking for kafka. Maybe you meant something different, like how to sell the tech of 2300 as more hard than opera?
 
Personally, I would either set such a game on Earth or Mars.

In the latter case, I would take a look at Kim Stanley Robinson's books, although realistic terraforming would take much, much, much longer. Come to think of it, you probably wouldn't want to live on a world which was being terraformed, because you are changing the chemical composition of the crust itself.

You could go with a space habitat thing. Ken MacLeod's "Fall Revolution" books might be worth a look, especially The Cassini Division. He goes overboard with the nanotech stuff, but otherwise...

Other general comments:
1. "Alien life" means alien microorganisms.
2. "Alien life" and terrestrial life shouldn't be allowed to mix, since the consequences are unpredictable.
3. Nanotech can usually be treated like any other technology - it's a way of doing things, not a thing in itself from a game perspective. If you need a more precise model, compare it to biotechnology - that allows you to avoid the Free Lunch problem.
4. I would be happy enough with a kind of pseudo-gravity, as a way of fudging the medical problems associated with extended microgravity. It doesn't seem quite so implausible as FTL.
5. Don't let your setting be so "Hard" that it's not fun...
 
Originally posted by alanb:
5. Don't let your setting be so "Hard" that it's not fun...
There is no reason "Hard" can't be fun. You seem to imply that after a point "Hard" cannot be fun. That's wrong.

Or at least no more right than saying that beyond a point "Opera" sci-fi can't be fun.

Both can be fun and the actual fun will have little to do with the level of "Hard" or "Opera" the game is built upon. It will have everything to do with how the game is presented and accepted by the ref and players.

So, yeah, tailor the game to the group, but don't think just because it's as realistic as you can make it that it will automatically be a bore.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
So, yeah, tailor the game to the group, but don't think just because it's as realistic as you can make it that it will automatically be a bore.
"It's a great new fantasy role-playing game. We pretend we're workers and students in an industrialized and technological society."

I've personally never been a big fan of Papers and Paychecks. ;)

(The reference is to a cartoon in the 1st Edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide, if you aren't familar with it. The players were D&D style adventurers.)
 
For some reason, that cartoon is etched into my brain. Ditto the one with the Wizard and his familiar.

On topic, I have a fetish for hard-as-can-be... like a NASA trip to Mars, 100 years from now, or 50 years later to the Jupiter moons. I don't think it's boring at all, even without all the Transhuman Space stuff.

Grueling astronaut training, 12 months in space, a landing you may not survive... on principle that's very cool to me. You would just need ONE piece of handwavium to spice it up. Something that's JUST believable.

I'm working on it... Ask me again later. :D
 
Yeah I've seen the cartoon, got a chuckle out of it, and wanted to do it "in character" in a game now and then
file_22.gif
There's a very similar one in The Traveller Book (CT bound compilation) of a bunch of Travellers sitting around a table aboard a starship about to play an RPG, I always imagined it was the same Papers and Paychecks game. Talk about longevity ;)

Not quite what I'm talking about but I see your point about going too far, though it's a moving line. I can and have had great times playing Traveller as what many derisively call "Accountants innnn Spaaace!" Aka, the typical Traveller free-trader merchant doing the routine port to port cargo to pay the bills.

Certainly any reality without meaning will be boring yet people find meaning in pursuits that others find boring in the real world every day. I think that makes us human. I don't understand it mind you but we'd be royally screwed without it
 
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