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Here is a proposal

Playtesting, in my experience, generally requires serious, contiguous blocks of time, which is a rare commodity for me (and that competes with other activities).


Ty,

That's been my experience too with real playtests. Sadly, what usual passes for passes for playtests in the Age of the Internet bears no resemblance to real playtesting.

I've been involved in wargame playtesting since 1976 through a FLGS called "The Citadel" and it's owner Pat Flores. Pat was known to the companies of the period, primarily Avalon Hill and SPI. Depending on what facet of the playtests they entrusted him with, you were expected to spend at least a weekend day at the store helping him. Not a few hours, not an afternoon, a day. Arrive at 8am and leave at 8pm or later. Arrive late or leave early? Then don't bother coming back.

And the 12+ hour playtests only occurred when the playtest was pretty far along and they only wanted to see if someone could play the game out the box.

If you got involved in the real playtests, and you earned that right through your performance in the lesser run-throughs, you were at the store for entire weekends, not just days.

In these playtests and unlike any RPG playtest I have been involved with in the the last decade, we actually tackled basic design features. For example, we started every playtest by physically constructing the game's map and counters. That meant, along with other things, that we checked the accuracy of a map's features and scale along with the various designators on the game's counters.

A lot of the drudgery and consultations in these playtests occurred with the counters. The devil is truly in the details. The counters and the factors on them had to exhibit an internal consistency which matched the game's scale and intent. From a statistical standpoint, one unit could not be an outlier whose presence would unbalance the game - unless the historical unit it represented was also an outlier.

I can't stress enough that basic game design choices were routinely questioned during these playtests and I saw design choices changed often enough for it not to seem odd. The designer or designers would have chosen a battle, campaign, or war, and then would have chosen an aspect they wished to focus on. After determining the focus, they'd craft, adopt, or adjust game mechanisms to express that intent. It was when their proposed mechanisms met their intended focus that the wrangling began. What was seen as a no-brainer by a designer may not be seen the same way by a player and vice versa. A lot of phone time and postage stamps were wasted during these design choice discussions.

Contrast that to our current internet-based, manuscript playtest process. A playtest these days is nothing more than a glorified typo hunt. Typos, grammar, numbers, fact checking, confusing sentences, and other similar editing concerns are handled by the playtesters while the basic design choices are rarely examined if such an examination is allowed at all. This lack of examination of basic features can only hurt the products involved.

Richard Berg of all people, an ex-lawyer turned wargame designer and all around "difficult" human being, once told me that if a designer cannot succinctly explain their reasons behind a design choice to an informed layman, than the design choice in question has not been well thought out. Putting it another way, if you can't clearly explain your design choice you do not clearly understand it yourself.

Designers and writers have blindspots because designers and writer are human. When we limit playtest questioning, either out of misplaced pride or time constraints, to relatively inconsequential things like typos and other editing concerns, we fail to identify and correct the much larger problems blindspots create. When those large, more basic problems slip by, the result is a fundamentally flawed product which will be much harder to correct than a product with typos.


Regards,
Bill
 
And, so, I am completely ignoring the edition.

I really don't want to put my free time into something I dislike this much.

For someone who is "completely ignoring this edition" and who isn't wanting to put their free time into something they dislike so much, you seem to have spent an awful lot of time complaining about it on this board. Or is this a revelation that you've just arrived at, and you've decided that you won't ever be bothering anyone here or anywhere else about Mongoose or their Traveller material again? Because I'm really not sure how you can honestly say those things otherwise given your history with respect to MGT.
 
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Ty,

That's been my experience too with real playtests. Sadly, what usual passes for passes for playtests in the Age of the Internet bears no resemblance to real playtesting....

...I can't stress enough that basic game design choices were routinely questioned during these playtests and I saw design choices changed often enough for it not to seem odd. ...

Contrast that to our current internet-based, manuscript playtest process. A playtest these days is nothing more than a glorified typo hunt. Typos, grammar, numbers, fact checking, confusing sentences, and other similar editing concerns are handled by the playtesters while the basic design choices are rarely examined if such an examination is allowed at all. This lack of examination of basic features can only hurt the products involved.

I'd say that my experience supports your analysis. Playtesting is not editing -- it's playing and testing the system. At least in a perfect world.

As an amateur game designer, I consider it my responsibility to provide my playtesters with a reasonably well edited and playable product. The basic mechanics are beaten into shape before I release the game to playtesters (which is why at least a dozen of my designs will never see the light of day).

And of course, I carefully assess the statistical qualities of my mechanics -- something that is all too often clearly *not* done in some games...

Richard Berg of all people, an ex-lawyer turned wargame designer and all around "difficult" human being, once told me that if a designer cannot succinctly explain their reasons behind a design choice to an informed layman, than the design choice in question has not been well thought out. Putting it another way, if you can't clearly explain your design choice you do not clearly understand it yourself.

I couldn't agree more.
 
Ugh. It must be a sign of the Apocalypse, because I find myself agreeing with Ty. Designers need to fix their own problems. The community can draw their attention to the problems, as they see them, but they are under no obligation to do so. And for their part, the designer is under no obligation to make use of anything anyone else suggests. However, the designer needs to be able to articulate why they've made the choices they have. I always did.
 
Ugh. It must be a sign of the Apocalypse, because I find myself agreeing with Ty. Designers need to fix their own problems.

So you're advocating that playtesting should be completely removed from game design? That only qualified game designers should be allowed to test their games? You wrote 2320AD right? How do you think it would have turned out if you hadn't had a playtest for it? Do you think you would have found and fixed all the problems with it before it was released if you hadn't shown it to anyone else during the writing process?

Complaining about something after the game is published isn't much use and isn't as likely to get the problem rectified because it depends on the publisher doing a new edition or errata. That "help" would have been a lot more useful while the game was being written so it could have been included in the published product. And the correct way to do that is by being involved in the playtesting of the product. Sure, there's no guarantee that your "help" would be included, but at least there's more chance of the problem being fixed if it's presented in a proper, civilized, well-considered way during playtesting.

Seriously, it's like people here are claiming that playtesting is a bad thing. Unbelievable. :eek:o:

The problem here is that the very people who are most actively complaining about Mongoose's products seem completely unwilling to take any positive steps to fix them during their development, despite the door being specifically left wide open for them to do so, and that disgusts me. They'd just rather fume and complain unconstructively after the fact than do something to actually help fix the problems they perceive. How can anyone have such a need to complain about something so much and then deliberately shun an offer to help fix it? It's incomprehensible to me.
 
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So you're advocating that playtesting should be completely removed from game design? That...blah blah blah...

Seriously, it's like people here are claiming that playtesting is a bad thing. Unbelievable. :eek:o:

You might do better to actually read what folks actually post. Might make these overwrought jeremiads less frequent.
 
Unfortunately, it's a lot easier and quicker to fire off the occasional forum post. [...]

There's also the issue of whether the playtest is designed well enough to justify the effort expended. [...]

Both very good points.

The second case is theoretical. MGT exists as a full ruleset.

The first case is more problematic. I admit to not having the time I want to spend playtesting T5 and going over draft material with a fine tooth comb, so I'll tell you what I do: I find the sections I'm interested in and I work them over, and that's it.

Practically, this means I've not spent a lot of time in chargen, but I've spent dozens of half-hour to one-hour sessions porting starships into T5, because I love being able to design starships by hand. As a result I can tell you how many ways you can assemble a Disruptor, what sensors are best for your Scout vs your Beowulf, and exactly how to reduce your fuel requirements, for example. But I can't tell you exactly what skills are available to a Merchant.

So, motivation is key, and if you're not partial about any particular part of Traveller, OR if the part you're partial to involves a group of gamers (for example), then perhaps it's more difficult.

Designers need to fix their own problems. The community can draw their attention to the problems, as they see them, but they are under no obligation to do so. And for their part, the designer is under no obligation to make use of anything anyone else suggests. However, the designer needs to be able to articulate why they've made the choices they have.

That seems quite reasonable to me.
 
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For someone who is "completely ignoring this edition" and who isn't wanting to put their free time into something they dislike so much, you seem to have spent an awful lot of time complaining about it on this board.

The original idea was a hope that Mongoose was just getting off to a rocky start--that they'd learn from their mistakes with regard to MGT and start "getting it right".

After so many releases, I've lost all hope that Mongoose will ever be anything that I will accept as Traveller.




Or is this a revelation that you've just arrived at, and you've decided that you won't ever be bothering anyone here or anywhere else about Mongoose or their Traveller material again? Because I'm really not sure how you can honestly say those things otherwise given your history with respect to MGT.

Boy, you're a spiteful one, ain't ye?

Well, you may not have noticed that I have not been participating that much in the discussion at all. Just a post here and there.
 
So you're advocating that playtesting should be completely removed from game design? That only qualified game designers should be allowed to test their games? You wrote 2320AD right? How do you think it would have turned out if you hadn't had a playtest for it? Do you think you would have found and fixed all the problems with it before it was released if you hadn't shown it to anyone else during the writing process?

Huh? Ty never wrote that, and neither did I. Playtesting is a valuable part of game design, necessary even. I'm a firm believer in the value of playtests. However, no one is obligated to participate in them. Nor is a designer/writer obligated to make use of anything that comes up in a playtest. They likely should, though, at least to the point of thinking about the various points.

Customers have a right to complain about products. Period. They should be polite about it, sure. But Ty, or Whipsnade, or S4, or Mike Brinkhues, they all have the right to say "Hey! I don't like what you've done with Traveller!" They also have the right to ask why. And they can do all of this without being involved in playtests. A writer or designer would be wise to at least listen to them, consider what they have to say. After that, if they want to go their own course, fine. The designer has their own vision as well.

The problem I've seen on these boards has generally been one of caring too much, and letting the lack of a personal filter (common for web postings) take things too far.

In my opinion, when contentious things arise in MgT (or any related product), the designers should be able to explain why. Perhaps the bit about Aslan not being psionic at all is a setup for a PC surprise in a campaign module, where they encounter Psionic Aslan assassins... I don't know. But a writer could simply say "We did it for meta-plot reasons related to a grand campaign we will be publishing next year." This wouldn't fly in a generic sourcebook, but in a milieu-specific book, sure. Or something.

The biggest problem seems to be a lack of understanding of why, and a lack of explanation from Mongoose.
 
Colin,

It's far worse than that. You're agreeing with Ty agreeing with me.

My advice? Three fingers of brown liquor in a juice glass.


Regards,
Bill

Yeah, I know <shudder>. I gave up drinking for a good reason, but moderating these forums is sometimes enough to make me think about it again.

You (in this case, the royal you, as in, both you and Ty) often have good points. My problem has generally been the way you make them.

Even drh has some good points, but again, his way of presenting them isn't helping. And I like Mongoose Traveller.
 
And I like Mongoose Traveller.

I thought that all of the moderators were supposed to hate MgT and be part of some secret cabal out to destroy it through apathy. :eek:o:

Oh well, another perfectly good stereotype shot to heck. :(
I need to work on plans for a salvage ship until I'm over this.
 
The biggest problem seems to be a lack of understanding of why, and a lack of explanation from Mongoose.

What on earth makes you think that a designer or publisher has any obligation to explain anything that they do to their customers? That's utter nonsense. They can explain it if they want to, but they are absolutely not obliged to explain it at all. And if they don't explain things then people should have the good grace to accept that and not complain about it all the time as if they're owed answers. They're not. Consumers aren't shareholders in the company, so the company doesn't have to answer to them.

Customers have a simple choice: they either can buy the product, or they can not buy it. The way some people go on though it seems that they're actually angry that a publisher has produced something that they don't want to buy, which is patently ridiculous. If it's not to their tastes then they should go and buy something else that is, and they'd save a lot of aggravation for everyone including themselves if they did.
 
In the Danish publishing world, a complimentary copy is just that, complimentary. It's a gesture of courtesy to someone who has helped in some way with getting a book finished. The author, and anyone else who has actually been paid to work on the book, also get at least a complimentary copy. In addition, the author usually get a number of free copies, the number specified in his contract. Other paid contributors (like a translator) may or may not also get multiple copies as part of their contractual entitlements.


Hans
 
Yeah, I know <shudder>. I gave up drinking for a good reason, but moderating these forums is sometimes enough to make me think about it again.

You (in this case, the royal you, as in, both you and Ty) often have good points. My problem has generally been the way you make them.

<looks innocently around>

I don't know what you're talking about. I've always been the soul of civility and amity...
 
What on earth makes you think that a designer or publisher has any obligation to explain anything that they do to their customers? That's utter nonsense. They can explain it if they want to, but they are absolutely not obliged to explain it at all.
Of course not. They can tell anyone they like to take a hike. But they don't have a right to expect that people won't take offense if they do.

And if they don't explain things then people should have the good grace to accept that and not complain about it all the time as if they're owed answers.
We don't. We complain about it all the time as if we didn't like what they were doing. If they explained, quite possible we'd stop complaining. It's worked before.

Customers have a simple choice: they either can buy the product, or they can not buy it.
Voters have a single choice. They can vote for a politician or not vote for him. That's never stopped anyone from complaining about a politician. People have a single choice about rain. They can go out in it or stay home. People have a single choice about sports. They can watch it or refrain from watching it. That has never stopped them from complaining when their favorite soap gets preempted.

So if it's all the same to you, and even if it isn't, I'll exercise my choice of buying or not buying Mongoose products AND my right to express my opinions about their products.


Hans
 
What on earth makes you think that a designer or publisher has any obligation to explain anything that they do to their customers? That's utter nonsense.

No one but you and your ilk are talking about obligations here.

But as someone who sells products/services (including game rules), I can only say that someone who refuses to engage his customers is likely not to keep them for long.

And while a game designer is not obligated to explain himself, my experience has been that players profoundly appreciate being told why a game is designed a certain way. It also does wonders for heading off bitter criticisms.

Understand that I am quite the autocrat when it comes to my game designs. I make no bones about the fact that I design the game that I want to play. And I won't change my rules into something I don't want to play. But see, my rules are a vanity project. I can afford to be an autocrat because I don't have to put food on the table from my wargame rules profits.

Even so, I listen carefully to all critics of my rules. I explain in great detail why I designed the game like I did. I consider all criticism. And in numerous cases, I have found that the critics were on to something. As a result, my rules get better with every version (and they've certainly been well-received, even by folks who have strong personal disagreements with me).

I really can't imagine a sensible game publisher taking your attitude. If they do, I do not expect them to succeed.
 
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