Heretics of the TNE, and why

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by alanb:
[QBI don't recall this. I suspect that they were from a Dragon article, and not even remotely canon.

As far as IRIS was concerned, they were clearly marked as a variant when they first appeared, that is, as non-canon. Gannon later made them canon, and, as we know Nilsen removed them.

My interpretation of the Strephon stuff is that:
(a) Strephon thought they were fakes;
(b) He used them to get himself out of the war by convincing people that he was a fake.

There is no contradiction between the two.

Personally, I despised IRIS. I couldn't even force myself to completely read the original articles!

They were obnoxious on many levels. Firstly, the whole "psionic super-spy" thing is just plain old munchkin fodder. Secondly, the background as it was given was complete hogwash.

Leaving aside the 500 year old conspiracy that didn't go astray, the whole idea of this "middle-class" agency goes across the grain of the Imperium. There is no way in the universe Arbellatra, or any of her circle, would have gone along with this kind of thing. Letting nobodies decide who gets to be Emperor? You've got to be kidding! This is the sole prerogative of the nobility (especially the Admirals).

In any case, why would the nobility pay the slightest attention to them when the succession is in dispute? No one has heard of them, and they are nobodies anyway!

*They can't actually do their supposed job!*

I'm willing to believe that there may well have been some kind of psionic "palace eunuchs" hanging about, but I am not willing to accept that they would be entrusted with control over the succession, or that they would be the kind of munchkin legion they were portrayed as.

Alan[/QB]

A True Believer!!!

Welcome Brother!!

Your essay is way more eloquent than my own. The big issue that I presented focused on the IRIS usurping the role of the Moot of handling succession.

In terms of Psi Spy munchkinism, your right. The original IBIS was a good variant. It didn't include psionics, but the regular anagathics treatments made it possible for an former agent to develop some high levels.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by alanb:

As far as IRIS was concerned, they were clearly marked as a variant when they first appeared, that is, as non-canon. Gannon later made them canon, and, as we know Nilsen removed them.
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Sorry, I never knew that, but MnotsoHO is on DN in negative numbers.
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My interpretation of the Strephon stuff is that:
(a) Strephon thought they were fakes;
(b) He used them to get himself out of the war by convincing people that he was a fake.

There is no contradiction between the two.

Personally, I despised IRIS. I couldn't even force myself to completely read the original articles!
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That is a telling statement in debate, alanb.
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They were obnoxious on many levels. Firstly, the whole "psionic super-spy" thing is just plain old munchkin fodder. Secondly, the background as it was given was complete hogwash.

Leaving aside the 500 year old conspiracy that didn't go astray, the whole idea of this "middle-class" agency goes across the grain of the Imperium. There is no way in the universe Arbellatra, or any of her circle, would have gone along with this kind of thing. Letting nobodies decide who gets to be Emperor? You've got to be kidding! This is the sole prerogative of the nobility (especially the Admirals).
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And we saw what the barracks emeperor Admirals did , what a fine selection process that was.
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In any case, why would the nobility pay the slightest attention to them when the succession is in dispute? No one has heard of them, and they are nobodies anyway!

*They can't actually do their supposed job!*

I'm willing to believe that there may well have been some kind of psionic "palace eunuchs" hanging about, but I am not willing to accept that they would be entrusted with control over the succession, or that they would be the kind of munchkin legion they were portrayed as.Alan[/QUOTE]
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Thanx fer the honest opinion, Alanb! I take it we log you on the side of Canonistas, yes? Okay..GAB, yer no longer alone!

Munchkinism? A counterbalance to the Nobility to betrayed the Imperium, from the Middle class that tried to fix it (and Like all others, failed-the script writers war was won by DN in the end), and was the grist of the people?
Yer opinion, and forcefully put. I am unswayed, and we shall disagree here sir. I came late (if necessary to add) to MT after a hiatus from CT, and missed the early 1,0. and 2.0 versions (3,0, end-game/ collapse, and onset of TNE). I come to the table and there's all this Trav stuff in print. I assimilate it all, and form my TU.
Unlike you sir, I discarded nothing. If it was published (good or bad idea) it was published, and made it "canon" to me. If it had GDW, or an Official Trav Backing, it was canon. (This was of course the t4 travesty, and GDW's collapse).
The we get Gurps Trav, and all was invalidated "in a dream" anecdote by Prince Varian. No sir, too much water under the bridge to roll the clock back and say, like a revisionist,
"DO the game over dude." Uh uh.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
[QB]A counterbalance to the Nobility to betrayed the Imperium, from the Middle class that tried to fix it [QB]

What??? When??? How???

The Imperium was run by the nobility. That is, they ran the military, the bureaucracy, the megacorps, the Moot and most of the worlds. In fact, the very definition of a noble was pretty much someone who is those who ran at least part of at least one of "the military, the bureaucracy, the megacorps, the Moot and most of the worlds". If you were in that position you were a noble by default. At worst, you might not have received your title yet, but it would arrive.

It is simply impossible for "the Middle class" to have played any kind of role of the type you suggest.

Or, since you clearly disagree, what agencies did they use?

Alan

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:

The we get Gurps Trav, and all was invalidated "in a dream" anecdote by Prince Varian.

In fact I don't use the lame "in a dream" anecdote.

IMTU, _Time Travel_ exists.

Alan

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam Devlin:

The we get Gurps Trav, and all was invalidated "in a dream" anecdote by Prince Varian.

In fact I don't use the lame "in a dream" anecdote.

IMTU, _Time Travel_ exists.

Alan</font>

I never interpreted the Varian's "dream" as MT was Dallas-Style* "last season was just a dream" kind of deal.
I took it as a form of precognition that the Prince had of a very possible future. Was he involved with Dulinor's death? No, he didn't have enough information and he just took it as a very bad dream.

Now I did suggest an interesting time travel scenario involving Avery. He goes back in time, with proper evidence and proof, to stop the assassination. To prevent a "Grandfather" time paradox, the future Strephon gives a message for Avery to deliver to 1116 Strephon on what needs to happen for an Avery can go back and stop the assassination.**

*For those that may not remember in the series Dallas one of the main characters, Bobby Ewing, died at the end of the season. The cliffhanger for the next season had Pam Ewing, finding Bobby in the shower. The explanation was Bobby's death and the entire year was a death Pam had.

**Not entirely original. There were several time-travel stories that had the traveller make certain a future self to go back in time. Two examples was the Sinclair/Valen storyline of B5, and the Harry Kim time travel piece from ST:Voyager.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by alanb:My interpretation of the Strephon stuff is that:
(a) Strephon thought they were fakes;
(b) He used them to get himself out of the war by convincing people that he was a fake.

There is no contradiction between the two.

Hey Liam. My good and knowledgable heretic friend.(Ain't left-handed complement fun )

Don't you find Alanb's take on Strephon's reaction plausible? They support both my intrepretation and what we know from the journal entries of Survival Margin.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by George Boyett:

To prevent a "Grandfather" time paradox, the future Strephon gives a message for Avery to deliver to 1116 Strephon on what needs to happen for an Avery can go back and stop the assassination.

I prefer the paradox myself. It allows me to say that the two timelines are actually existing parallel universes.

I originally had the TNE timeline more or less ceasing to exist once the assassination was prevented, but since MJD has insisted on creating a future for it, the paradox allows both universes to exist.

And yes, it _is_ notionally possible to travel between the universes.

Alan

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by alanb:
I originally had the TNE timeline more or less ceasing to exist once the assassination was prevented, but since MJD has insisted on creating a future for it, the paradox allows both universes to exist.

And yes, it _is_ notionally possible to travel between the universes.

Now that can be something. You have very screwy misjump, arrive in the Rebellion, and meet yourelf!

Now that would be some fun roleplaying, especially if you played both time lines before the meeting.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by alanb:

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:

The we get Gurps Trav, and all was invalidated "in a dream" anecdote by Prince Varian.

In fact I don't use the lame "in a dream" anecdote.

IMTU, _Time Travel_ exists.

Alan

[/QUOTE
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And in mine sir, only as accidents of Jump space, and very, very rare. Glad to hear you have reconciled it.
Stodgy old me, I have not. For more than just financial reasons.

 

[Liam Devlin]

GAB posted-"Hey Liam. My good and knowledgable heretic friend.(Ain't left-handed complement fun )

Don't you find Alanb's take on Strephon's reaction plausible? They support both my intrepretation and what we know from the journal entries of Survival Margin."
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I find your humor to be quite appealing, actually, more so than TJ's, oh zealot of dogma!(pardonnez moi, My karma seems to have run over your dogma... Yes the lefthanded compliment. A Classic, thank you!

Plausible? I think his theory supports the illogical illusion you have duped yourself into believing.

But seriously, his ideas support yours. Great minds think alike, as oft have I said on these boards.

THAT dos give spark to a good debate though...
"What do you define as canon?"
Is something with the traveller trademark, and published/ approved of for use with Traveller (any form), 'canon"/ acceptable?
We may interpret and reinterpet the motivations of the characters of the rebellion's factions day in and day out. TIL the cows come home!
But...its in print (The same arguments can be made against me with GT--but I have my reasons for not wanting to do a "game over" with the whole frikkin Trav universe). It was published (good idea or not-opinions as I have seen vary widely here yours and AlanB's, vs Mine)-so was GT.. and T4 (egads whatta mess), now T-20 (KOWABUNGA!). We shall see, where the Future takes us, shall we.?

respectfully-but heretically, still

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
THAT dos give spark to a good debate though...
"What do you define as canon?"

Any gaming ruleset, sourcebook, supplement, and adventure that is published by the licenseholder (GDW, Marc Miller) is almost automatically canon. This does not include most periodical articles, unless an article is attributed to an employee of the licenseholder or is an approved detailing of some area of Traveller. Most articles, from my experience, are fandom or variants, some good and some bad.*

If a Traveller Sourcebook is published by a third party (SJG,DSP,QLI), the licensing and status with MWM helps determines canon status.

Now the issue with IRIS. It first appeared in several articles in Challange magazine, as a variant. Only later did it appear in published adventures/sourcebooks, bit like many heresies and schisms. I attribute this to either bad editing and content control, or gaming industry nepotism/cronism.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Is something with the traveller trademark, and published/ approved of for use with Traveller (any form), 'canon"/ acceptable?

"Approved for use with Traveller" products are considered optional or varients to add color/flavor to a campaign or can be very handy playing aids (The Judge's Guild Navigator Sector/Subsector book was a great example). IIRC understanding the "Approved for" means an product could be used in official/semi-official demos and public tourneys. You just need to remember that the item/information is not really part of OTU.

*There was at least one piece of fandom that did make it into MT canon, IMO was a good addtion. Do you remember the court martial rules for prior history? That was a JTAS article written by then a clerk of a nearby FLGS back in the 1980s. This was a perfect addition because it added to the setting without contradicting or voiding existing canon.

 

[Liam Devlin]

*There was at least one piece of fandom that did make it into MT canon, IMO was a good addtion. Do you remember the court martial rules for prior history? That was a JTAS article written by then a clerk of a nearby FLGS back in the 1980s. This was a perfect addition because it added to the setting without contradicting or voiding existing canon."
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Yes, and had it used against me too! Several times (grins), ahh the good ole dayz...But if you use one part or all, under the GDW banner, in the end, we make up Our Own TU from the whole cloth, discard what we want, and keep the rest.
Judging what is canon, and what is not for OTU seems a petty waste of time. If they published it, it must be so. Disregarding bad stuff, is still in the eye of the beholder GAB.
ANd I don't think it was all bad meself, I never paid attention to the DGP vs GDW wars, never knew of em till I came on line. Don't care either way. I'll use it all, as I see fit, Like HUnter's sign sez.
Makes me a heretic? If so, I'll wear the mantle still.
YOU don't use stuff that I do, and thats fine. ITS YTU, after all. Everyone here on these oards has "house rules", are they heretics?
I prefer not to straitjacket meself with limited horizons. There's ideas out of "alternate technologies" in FF&S I've looked at and said.."hey, that would be a neat thing to run some PCs into..".
Might not be a strict Trav campaign idea, but then, its MTU.
Gygax uttered those dogamtic Lines once after saying the rules were a frame work..
"If you're not playing the way I wrote it, you're not playing D & D!"...shortly before the lawsuits caught up with him, and they gave him the boot.

Heretically still,

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by George Boyett:

I never interpreted the Varian's "dream" as MT was Dallas-Style* "last season was just a dream" kind of deal.
I took it as a form of precognition that the Prince had of a very possible future. Was he involved with Dulinor's death? No, he didn't have enough information and he just took it as a very bad dream.

I was thinking about this last night. It's kind of scary: Varian is psionic???!!! Whoa!

That's a whole new pseudo-fact to play with.

Thank you. My TU just got even stranger.

Alan

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by George Boyett:

I never interpreted the Varian's "dream" as MT was Dallas-Style* "last season was just a dream" kind of deal.
I took it as a form of precognition that the Prince had of a very possible future. Was he involved with Dulinor's death? No, he didn't have enough information and he just took it as a very bad dream.

I was thinking about this last night. It's kind of scary: Varian is psionic???!!! Whoa!

That's a whole new pseudo-fact to play with.

Thank you. My TU just got even stranger.

</font>

Your Welcome!

I don't think Varian is trained, but more of a very rare talent that only triggered because he was part at a pivotal moment.

Then again? It could add another wrinkle to his trip to the Spinward Marches

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
Then again? It could add another wrinkle to his trip to the Spinward Marches

Indeed...

I might pop over to the SJGames site, and then check out Behind The Claw...

Alan

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by George Boyett:
Then again? It could add another wrinkle to his trip to the Spinward Marches

Indeed...

I might pop over to the SJGames site, and then check out Behind The Claw...

Alan</font>[/QUOTE]Also read all TNS stories. There are several regarding Lucan and Varian.

Pay particular to Lucan's duty in the Imperial Navy and the method Varian is travelling.

 

[shield]

GURPS wise. yes varian is duking an diving, secret rendevous the lot. And there is that PSI facility under the control of IN at Wypoc.

Juding by the fact that Norris had a pisonic aide, that they have been fighting the zho, and Project Blackheart information was restricted to PSI trained imperial agents (Traveller Digets 11) I would say there is a lot going on PSI wise in the Marches.

The only other place in the empire with an imperial PSI facility is Terra, which is off course full of mad solomani - you can see why GURPS is sending the empress off to molify these nutters.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Simon Jester]

Originally posted by RichardP:
The only other place in the empire with an imperial PSI facility is Terra, which is off course full of mad solomani - you can see why GURPS is sending the empress off to molify these nutters.

Cheers
Richard

And, much like Queen Elizabeth does now, when she greets the masses come to see her, she will give The Empress Wave.

Sorry, it was too good an opportunity to pass up.

Simon Jester

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by RichardP:
GURPS wise. yes varian is duking an diving, secret rendevous the lot. And there is that PSI facility under the control of IN at Wypoc.

Juding by the fact that Norris had a pisonic aide, that they have been fighting the zho, and Project Blackheart information was restricted to PSI trained imperial agents (Traveller Digets 11) I would say there is a lot going on PSI wise in the Marches.

The only other place in the empire with an imperial PSI facility is Terra, which is off course full of mad solomani - you can see why GURPS is sending the empress off to molify these nutters.

Cheers
Richard

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Sounds like a topic of What about Psi in GT to me..Good speculation though.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by RichardP:
GURPS wise. yes varian is duking an diving, secret rendevous the lot. And there is that PSI facility under the control of IN at Wypoc.

Juding by the fact that Norris had a pisonic aide, that they have been fighting the zho, and Project Blackheart information was restricted to PSI trained imperial agents (Traveller Digets 11) I would say there is a lot going on PSI wise in the Marches.

The only other place in the empire with an imperial PSI facility is Terra, which is off course full of mad solomani - you can see why GURPS is sending the empress off to molify these nutters.

Cheers
Richard

Hey this brings up an interesting idea. What if the immediate Imperial Family, including those once or twice removed, get rudimentary Psi training. For the most part they will be trained for shields and emotion sense, but occasionally a gifted member could get further training.

In one of my previous post, I speculated that Varian had a precognition dream of the Rebellion timeline. Maybe one of the covert reasons for touring the Spinward Marches is to visit Wynpoc, in order to get handle on his dream. The facility has the equipment and staff to fully understand what the Prince experienced.

The same could be said about the Empress visiting Terra. Who said that maybe her "woman's" intuition was working overtime, including precognition about Lucan, Dulinor, and Strephon's emergency visit to Longbow (I'm working under the idea that she atleast knew when the Emperor had to use a stand in, but not why).