HG crew rounding carification

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon again Vladika,

No problem, I got here after Matt123 posted the question on a different forum.

Sort of...Matt123 ask this question specifically so...In gave it to him. Happy to digress again at any reasonable, or unreasonable, provocation.



Engineers are 1 per 100dt of drives, not 1000dt of ship. (If you "mix" drives from Book 2 and HG then I use 1 engineer per 35dt of drives, or part thereof, for those drives from Book 2.) Try a Book 2 maneuver drive for a factor 6 instead of a HG factor 6 at 17%! Only works for smaller ships though.

The method for crew determination is for hulls <=1,000 tons. I tried Book 2 way back when and jumped to HG since I was able to get closer matches to the published deisgns. Not to mention having more options for everything else.

 

[Matt123]

I add 1 crew member for each "break point".

For large ships needing 2 crew per thousand I add 1 crew member for each 500 tons over a round 1000 or part thereof.

Examples:
10,000dt ship = 20 service crew and 10 troops/marines.
10,100dt ship = 21 service crew and 11 troops/marines.
10,499dt ship = 21 service crew and 11 troops/marines.
10,999dt ship = 22 service crew and 11 troops/marines.
11,000dt ship = 22 service crew and 11 troops/marines.
11,100dt ship = 23 service crew and 12 troops/marines. etc.

Now thats interesting, you use essentially pro-rata rounding up, whereas Tom and I use pro-rata rounding down. Plus you calculate the security troops separately which I don't, which may lead to differences as well.

In comparison, at 10,100 tons, Tom and I would get 20 Service crew and 10 troops, a difference of 2 crew.

Anybody else wish to contribute?

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Matt123,

Originally Posted by Vladika
I add 1 crew member for each "break point".

For large ships needing 2 crew per thousand I add 1 crew member for each 500 tons over a round 1000 or part thereof.

Examples:
10,000dt ship = 20 service crew and 10 troops/marines.
10,100dt ship = 21 service crew and 11 troops/marines.
10,499dt ship = 21 service crew and 11 troops/marines.
10,999dt ship = 22 service crew and 11 troops/marines.
11,000dt ship = 22 service crew and 11 troops/marines.
11,100dt ship = 23 service crew and 12 troops/marines. etc.

Now thats interesting, you use essentially pro-rata rounding up, whereas Tom and I use pro-rata rounding down. Plus you calculate the security troops separately which I don't, which may lead to differences as well.

The ship's Service Crew provides security troops when Ship's Troops/Marines are not being carried which makes the Service Crew 3 per 1,000 dton. With Ship's Troops onboard the security troops are dropped. I think that Vladika is suggesting that both Service Crew Security troops and Ship's Troops are being carried.

Andrew Vallance's High Guard Shipyard (HGS) calculates the Service Crew security detachment/troops separately since they can be carried in addition to the Ship's Toops/Marines.

In comparison, at 10,100 tons, Tom and I would get 20 Service crew and 10 troops, a difference of 2 crew.

Anybody else wish to contribute?

Minor quibble, I'd have 10 security troops, actually I stole Andrew's use of Security Detachment.

 

[Vladika]

For crew and troops, I'm guessing he rounds down to the nearest 1000.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Vladika,

For crew and troops, I'm guessing he rounds down to the nearest 1000.

My Ship's Troops range from 3 per 100 dtons to 3 per 1,000 dtons, while my Service Crew Security personnel is 1 per 1,000 dtons. Okay, my Ship's Troops usually are at the higher end.

Hull 10,100 dtons

Ship's Troops: 30 to 303
3 per 1,000 dt: round(3 x (10,100/1,000),0) = round(3 x 10.1,0) = round(30.3,0) = 30

3 per 100 dt: round(3 x (10,100/100),0) = round(3 x 101,0) = round(303,0) = 303

Service Crew Security: 10
1 per 1,000 dtons = round(1 x (10,100/1,000),0) = round(1 x 10.1,0) = round(10.1,0) = 10

Hull 10,499 dtons

Ship's Troops: 31 to 315
3 per 1,000 dt: round(3 x (10,499/1,000),0) = round(3 x 10.499,0) = round(31.497,0) = 31

3 per 100 dt: round(3 x (10,499/100),0) = round(3 x 104.99,0) = round(314.97,0) = 315

Service Crew Security: 10
1 per 1,000 dtons = round(1 x (10,499/1,000),0) = round(1 x 10.499,0) = round(10.499,0) = 10

 

[Vladika]

I do away with the security troops altogether and replace them with marines. On top of that there may be more marines depending on ship and mission.

For HG boarding actions, marines are vastly superior!

Makes sense too in the real world. (Some overweight CPO with a side arm and a pimple faced kid with an empty rifle or a couple of hard core jar heads with, at the least, sidearms and shotguns...)

 

[snrdg082102]

Hi Vladika,

I do away with the security troops altogether and replace them with marines. On top of that there may be more marines depending on ship and mission.

HG2 page 33 "Ship's Troops: Most ships over 1,000 tons have a Marine (or military) contingent aboard which ranges in size from a squad to a regiment. Such contingents range from 3 per 100 to 3 per thousand ton."

If you're using the Marines and dropping the service crew security personnel then the break point is a bit off. Of course by putting a note in the fluff that the Marines are 1 per 1,000 tons.

Ship's Troops organization, if one wants to get into the details, is in accordance Book 4 Mercenary.

In Book 4 a squad is composed of 8 to 12 bodies which is 2 or 3 fire teams composed of 4 bodies per fire team.

Of course the largest unit vaguely described in Book 4 is a Battalion and the Unit Size Table on page 33 lists a Brigade consisting of 1,500 bodies.

Off the top of my head I'm not sure about the size of a Regiment, which depends on which country's ground forces you're partial to.

For HG boarding actions, marines are vastly superior!

Makes sense too in the real world. (Some overweight CPO with a side arm and a pimple faced kid with an empty rifle or a couple of hard core jar heads with, at the least, sidearms and shotguns...)

The problem is that aren't enough marines to go around so the over-weight Officer, CPO, PO and pimple faced kid has the dubious honor of being the boarding party. Of course the Marines a griping about having to go in harms way while the pansy sailors stay safe.

 

[rancke]

For HG boarding actions, marines are vastly superior!

Makes sense too in the real world. (Some overweight CPO with a side arm and a pimple faced kid with an empty rifle or a couple of hard core jar heads with, at the least, sidearms and shotguns...)

As I understand it, the main difference between proper naval infantry and marines is organizatorial, that is to say, whether they are paid directly by the Navy or by a separate organization. (Vide present-day navies without separate marine organizations).

Naval personnel that has been given a bit of training over and above their everyday duties is another matter. But "ship's troops" seems to be more in the 'trained pretty much as marines are' camp.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

Morning timerover51

,

Thanks for the real world link which might, if presented right, get added to the errata as a clarification for crewing of civilian ships in Traveller.

I finally went back and found this. I am curious as to what you mean?

 

[Vladika]

Marines

..."ship's troops" seems to be more in the 'trained pretty much as marines are' camp.
Hans

Boarding Action Resolution: Each player rolls one die, and applies the following DMs. For each five marines, +1. For each ten (non-marine) troops, +1. For each 50 (non-marine, non-troop) crew, +1. HG p43

This is why I use Marines. Twice as good as ships troops. As for ships crew? 5 jar heads will get you 50!

Ship's troops often fill the role of security forces aboard the ship, and are used for military adventures by the commander where necessary. HG p33

I watched enough Star Trek to know what happens to those red shirt ships troops!:rofl:

BTW Tom... The overweight CPO and the pimple faced kid don't get to board even if they were dumb enough to want to. (scratch "dumb". Insert "gung ho")

 

[rancke]

This is why I use Marines. Twice as good as ships troops.

I concede the point.

The next question that pops into my head is why anyone would use ships troops at all. Ship's crew is better than marines for running ship's systems (except guns), but what advantage does ship's troops have? Are they cheaper? Easier to train? Able to help out with ship's systems?


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Lack access to Marines?

Could see commercial ships having 'ship's troops', especially established lines. Such ships would be 'sovereign' within themselves - so I could see ship's troops filling an internal security role. And generally with no authority to act outside a ship, except in its own defense (as opposed to Marines partaking in expeditionary roles). Though it might use them in commercial interests too, legally or otherwise.

 

[Vladika]

I concede the point.

The next question that pops into my head is why anyone would use ships troops at all. Ship's crew is better than marines for running ship's systems (except guns), but what advantage does ship's troops have? Are they cheaper? Easier to train? Able to help out with ship's systems?


Hans

Tom kind of hit me over the head with that one. (I'll get him later...):devil:

But, seriously, by the rules...Grrrrrrrrrr

Ship's Troops: Most ships over 1,000 tons have a marine (or military) contingent aboard which ranges in size from a squad to a regiment. Such contingents range from three per 100 tons to three per thousand tons. Such forces are organized according to Mercenary, Book 4, and are assigned to the ship; their equipment should be consistent with the tech level of the ship. Ship's troops often fill the role of security forces aboard the ship, and are used for military adventures by the commander where necessary. Ship's troops are also used for damage control parties, manning of some weapons, and boarding actions. HG p33

There is the dilemma,

Service Crew: The ship itself may have a requirement for other sections which provide basic services, including shops and storage, security (especially if there are no ship's troops aboard), maintenance, food service, and other operations. Such personnel are drawn from the crew branch if no other appears appropriate. Allow two crew per 1000 tons of ship; three per 1000 tons if there are no ship's troops.

I've always used 1 troop per 1000dt and 2 service crew per 1000dt. Assuming the 3 vs 2 service crew would account for the "one" troop per 1000dt

Tom has ruined my day, and untold ship designs, but pointing out the obvious, big fat, galling, glaring fact (Thanks Tom...)that Ive misinterpreted that for years...

So, it takes 3 incompetent troops to replace one service crew member, or, do without ships troops and use 3 service crew per 1000dt.

So, I can't board, and hope to God I don't get boarded! (Back to the Overweight CPO and the pimple faced kid.)

Hans, as for your question, my answer is "screw having ships troops". They take up space, steel oxygen and eat to many donuts.

 

[aramis]

Ship's troops are likely naval ratings - and per HG, ship's troops reduce maintenance crew needs. I don't see Marines aboard doing so...

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening aramis,

Ship's troops are likely naval ratings - and per HG, ship's troops reduce maintenance crew needs. I don't see Marines aboard doing so...

Interesting thought and one that I'll admit never entered what passes for my mind.

May be I'm reading the text wrong for both Ship's Troops and Service Crew. Per Ship's Troops the personnel are Marines or other military contingents organized according to Book 4 Mercenary, ground forces not naval.

The only service crew, at least how I've understood the rules, that is reduced by ship's troops are those assigned to security and the maintenance crew is not affected.

Of course I could be totally out to lunch and in my own little world looking through rose colored glasses.

 

[Carlobrand]

Ship's troops are likely naval ratings - and per HG, ship's troops reduce maintenance crew needs. I don't see Marines aboard doing so...

"Ship's Troops: Most ships over 1,000 tons have a marine (or military) contingent aboard which ranges in size from a squad to a regiment. Such contingents range from three per 100 tons to three per thousand tons. ... Ship's troops often fill the role of security forces aboard the ship ... Ship's troops are also used for damage control parties, manning of some weapons, and boarding actions"

"Service Crew: The ship itself may have a requirement for other sections which provide basic services, including shops and storage, security (especially if there are no ship's troops aboard), ... Allow two crew per 1000 tons of ship; three per 1000 tons if there are no ship's troops."

HG seems to think they're Marines or military of some sort. HG implies that the marines/military are serving in security and damage control roles and freeing up service crew from those tasks.

If you follow the HG crew guidelines, a ship with ship's troops will not only have troops that are twice as effective, it will have at least three times as many of them (3 per thousand dT verses 1 per thousand) - though it will pay a price in tonnage for the privilege. Still, for the price of 0.4% of the ship volume, you get a crew that's almost six times more effective at resisting boarding (or to be more precise, gains +6 against the non-marine service troop's +1 to a 1d6 roll).

For example, a 20,000 dT light cruiser would have either 60 service crew including 20 security ratings, or 40 service crew and 60 Marines - plus assorted other crew. The crews would have identical boarding party DMs except for the troop numbers: the ship using security ratings'd get +2 for its 20 ratings, while the ship with Marines would get +12 for its 60 Marines but would need 80 dT of living space for the extra bodies, not a whole lot in a 20,000 dT ship. An attacker with Marines can pretty well guarantee winning the boarding battle against an equal-sized defender with security ratings (for the 20KT, typical defending crew ~150ish for a +3, 20 security ratings add a further +2, verses +12 for the 60 boarding marines, on 1D6 means the defender can roll at highest an 11, while the attacker's lowest roll is a 13).

In fact, he's got good odds trying to board a ship twice his size, if the larger ship's using security ratings.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello BytePro,

Lack access to Marines?

Could see commercial ships having 'ship's troops', especially established lines. Such ships would be 'sovereign' within themselves - so I could see ship's troops filling an internal security role. And generally with no authority to act outside a ship, except in its own defense (as opposed to Marines partaking in expeditionary roles). Though it might use them in commercial interests too, legally or otherwise.

For commercial/civilian vessels I can see hiring independent security services, aka mercenaries, as ship's troops in addition to security personnel from the service crew. IIRC there is at least one article/adventure in CT that details the personnel troops of a noble. The same sort of organization might be used too.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello timerover51,

Originally Posted by snrdg082102
Morning timerover51,

Thanks for the real world link which might, if presented right, get added to the errata as a clarification for crewing of civilian ships in Traveller.
]

I finally went back and found this. I am curious as to what you mean?

Using the manuals one could pull together a document similar to the HG2 crew requirements and then present them to a representative of FFE or one of the companies with Traveller licenses. The document might be picked and become a supplement.

Next my apologies for taking so long to respond, I've been volunteered for a project and missed several of the new posts.

 

[snrdg082102]

Helo Vladika,

BTW Tom... The overweight CPO and the pimple faced kid don't get to board even if they were dumb enough to want to. (scratch "dumb". Insert "gung ho")

I hate to say this but, if the overweight CPO and pimple faced kid are the only "troops" I've got then they do the boarding. Of course if they probably aren't going to be too happy with the orders.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning 5:34 Am PST Vladika,

Originally Posted by rancke
I concede the point.

The next question that pops into my head is why anyone would use ships troops at all. Ship's crew is better than marines for running ship's systems (except guns), but what advantage does ship's troops have? Are they cheaper? Easier to train? Able to help out with ship's systems?

Hans

Tom kind of hit me over the head with that one. (I'll get him later...):devil:

I didn't pose the questions quoted above that was rancke, but I've got broad shoulders and I'm used to being on the wrong end of things.

But, seriously, by the rules...Grrrrrrrrrr

Ship's Troops: Most ships over 1,000 tons have a marine (or military) contingent aboard which ranges in size from a squad to a regiment. Such contingents range from three per 100 tons to three per thousand tons. Such forces are organized according to Mercenary, Book 4, and are assigned to the ship; their equipment should be consistent with the tech level of the ship. Ship's troops often fill the role of security forces aboard the ship, and are used for military adventures by the commander where necessary. Ship's troops are also used for damage control parties, manning of some weapons, and boarding actions. HG p33

There is the dilemma,

Service Crew: The ship itself may have a requirement for other sections which provide basic services, including shops and storage, security (especially if there are no ship's troops aboard), maintenance, food service, and other operations. Such personnel are drawn from the crew branch if no other appears appropriate. Allow two crew per 1000 tons of ship; three per 1000 tons if there are no ship's troops.

I've always used 1 troop per 1000dt and 2 service crew per 1000dt. Assuming the 3 vs 2 service crew would account for the "one" troop per 1000dt

Tom has ruined my day, and untold ship designs, but pointing out the obvious, big fat, galling, glaring fact (Thanks Tom...)that Ive misinterpreted that for years...

You didn't misinterpret anything you modified the rules to suit your universe. My apologies for supplying the recommended ratio per HG2.

So, it takes 3 incompetent troops to replace one service crew member, or, do without ships troops and use 3 service crew per 1000dt.

So, I can't board, and hope to God I don't get boarded! (Back to the Overweight CPO and the pimple faced kid.).

May be I'm looking at this completely wrong but this is how I see the ratio: 1 service crew security troop has 1/3 the chance of surviving a hostile boarding action compared to the 3/1 chance of Ship's troops.
Ship's troops use Book 4 for skills which are geared toward boarding action combat. To me boarding actions are similar to house to house fighting. HG2 service crew would be using the Naval Tables to get there skills, which are lighter on combat skills than Book 4.

Hans, as for your question, my answer is "screw having ships troops". They take up space, steel oxygen and eat to many donuts.

My next reply will be to rancke's, aka Hans, comments.