Hints on Ship Floorplan Drawing?

[DangerousThing]

Hello,

I'm new to ship floor plan drawing, but the characters in my new campaign have a new ship designed under T5 (sort of) and I want to be able to show the characters a floor plan.

I have all sorts of programs. I have NeoPaint (an interesting and easy to use basic painting application), Photoshop CS5, and Campaign Cartographer with the Cosmographer extension. I primarily do 3d Art (poorly, but I have an odd time schedule), so this 2d stuff is new to me.

I would like to make the plans large enough to be able to print them, which usually means making them at 1,200 DPI if I want to make them legible in print.

There are a couple of things that puzzle me.

One person made some interesting designs, but his beds seemed only a bit over 1.5 meters long, which doesn't seem long enough for me (5' 2" and I'm only comfortable on a King or a long single). How long and wide *should* a bed be? I may just use the long single standard, changed to be an even number of metric units.

And where does all the space spent for the corridors come from? Perhaps they come from taking a bit of space from the other areas; I remember that as one suggestion for Classic Traveller.

And there usually is a bit of wasted space between the rooms and the hull. In CT one could put fuel there, but I'm using energy cells (yes, my starships run on batteries) instead. I'm thinking that I can put water there - people use a *lot* of water on a long trip.

Thanks in advance.
-
D. Jay Newman
A little learning is a dangerous thing.

 

[Omnivore]

On the beds, I'd say a bit over average height, maybe as much as 20% over. Remember, if your accommodations just fit the average person, half your passengers will be uncomfortable!

As for hallways, airlocks, community areas, some of the space comes from the stateroom allotment, another portion comes from the bridge allotment. The actual bridge only needs to be big enough to hold the on duty command crew and their workstations.

Another thing to remember is that as long as the floorplan comes out to within +/- 20% of the actual volume, you're in good shape.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I just posted some information in "Depicting Starships" that may help you.

 

[DangerousThing]

On the beds, I'd say a bit over average height, maybe as much as 20% over. Remember, if your accommodations just fit the average person, half your passengers will be uncomfortable!

Agreed. That's why I'd at least start with the standard Long Single. It's basically a single bed that's as long as a King.

Though I do have a book which has some studies on this. For some things you want to have something adjustable that starts with average but can move back and forth for the other ends. For things like beds you need to go big (especially if you want you mercs to be comfortable). Chairs are fairly easy on a floor plan, but a royal pain in real life. I have a normal sized torso but shorter legs than would normally go on this body which adds up to 5' 2", so when sitting on a chair made for an average person, my feet dangle a bit and my butt doesn't get to the back of the chair, leaving me an unhappy person. I actually do all of my work in a rather expensive recliner (Ekones Stressless, I recommend them to anybody) because it fits me and is the most comfortable workstation I have in the house.

As for hallways, airlocks, community areas, some of the space comes from the stateroom allotment, another portion comes from the bridge allotment. The actual bridge only needs to be big enough to hold the on duty command crew and their workstations.

You also need enough room for people to get around in comfortably. People rarely like to feel hemmed in, though the exact distance is very dependent on culture. If you ever have the chance to see an English/Italian diplomatic dinner, I highly recommend it; it's a dance, you see. The English like a much larger personal space than the Italians, so as an Italian moves in to feel comfortable, the Englishman moves back to feel comfortable. I think you can only see this in movies now, because diplomats are now trained for this.

Another thing to remember is that as long as the floorplan comes out to within +/- 20% of the actual volume, you're in good shape.

Hope this helps,
Brian

Thank you very much. I'm just mainly using the floor plan for my players and also for the basis for making a 3d model of the ship. I've already decided on a Lifting body design for the hull and I almost have the numbers finalized, though I'm going back and run things through as a 600 Td and as a 400 Td hull.

And yes, this is a one-off ship that is meant to look like a trade pioneering ship, but is a lot more. If only I could make it bigger on the inside than on the outside, I'd be happy.
-
Jay

 

[McPerth]

You also need enough room for people to get around in comfortably. People rarely like to feel hemmed in, though the exact distance is very dependent on culture. If you ever have the chance to see an English/Italian diplomatic dinner, I highly recommend it; it's a dance, you see. The English like a much larger personal space than the Italians, so as an Italian moves in to feel comfortable, the Englishman moves back to feel comfortable. I think you can only see this in movies now, because diplomats are now trained for this.

This is why a stateroom takes about 54 KL. At 2.4 meters ceiling, that means 22.5 square meters. In most ship maps I've seen, rooms are about 3 x 4.5 meters (2 x 3 in 1.5 meter squares), so 13.5 sq meters. The rest will go for common areas.

Just as comparison, with this numbers (22.5 sq meters/person) a 4 member family would need about 90 square meters. I guess the average in Barcelona is closer to 70. for an apartment for such a family, maybe even less (mine is a little smaller, and we're 2 adults and 2 children), and it includes kitchen, living room, etc...

Of course, that's no all the space we have to move, as we can cross the door and go to street, parks, etc, while we could not in a starship (or at least it will not be as healthy), but for most unaccustomed people this will be just for a few days, and so bearable.

The crew will need less, as they are accustomed to it (think about submarine crews, though it may be an extreme example).

 

[Andrew Boulton]

A rough 3d model is useful for sanity-checking the plans.

And don't forget: 1dt = two 1.5x1.5x3m squares!

 

[Frostvarg]

and to see real furniture messurements just use the IKEA cathalog online. they have messurements on all their furniture.

exampel
http://www.ikea.com/se/sv/catalog/products/00177517/

 

[DangerousThing]

and to see real furniture messurements just use the IKEA cathalog online. they have messurements on all their furniture.

exampel
http://www.ikea.com/se/sv/catalog/products/00177517/

Thanks! That is a very valuable resource. We've got a lot of Ikea bookshelves.
-
Jay

 

[DangerousThing]

A rough 3d model is useful for sanity-checking the plans.

And don't forget: 1dt = two 1.5x1.5x3m squares!

Thank you. And I plan to do a fairly good model, both interior and exterior for use in a graphic novel.
-
Jay

 

[DaveChase]

ergonomics


Dave Chase

 

[DangerousThing]

ergonomics


Dave Chase

Yes, I have a book on that very subject with measurements. Unfortunately the author's chapter on Aslan was very fuzzy, Hivers weren't covered at all, and you could see right through his arguments on holographics.

The book is in my bathroom right now. You mean you use your spare bathroom closet for anything other than books?

Seriously, it's a great book if you need to create real-world objects (or 3d objects that work for correct 3d models). Unfortunately I use Poser for much of my drawings and the major human models look OK, but they don't have the same proportions as humans. The friend that pointed me to the book also said he built a lot of models and wondered why they looked odd in Poser before he started measuring directly from the Poser models.

 

[Carlobrand]

A modern twin-size mattress is 1 meter by 1.9 meters. A person could comfortably sleep on a cot about 3/4 meter wide, but I wouldn't do that to passengers. A 3m by 3m (~10' by 10') room ought to be more than adequate for a single person: twin size bed, small table with chair and terminal, 1m. wide armoire at the foot of the bed. That's two dTons and leaves you the other two for hallways, restrooms, lounge or dining areas and such.

THe same size room can serve double occupancy by putting a bunk-bed in there. Works better on larger ships with crews working in shifts: that way you have the room to yourself when your room-mate is on duty, and you're only both in the room for sleeping.

 

[DaveChase]

Sorry for the short reply the other day, long day with farming going on.

Sounds like you are the right track.

What I did after I started making deckplans, was spend a month drawing out quarters (living space), space ship accesories (Like tables, chairs, bunks control panels, etc) and such that I would use over and over again, similar to what Rigel is talking about with his stamps.

Then, I would draw not only deckplans but profile, side and cut away flats of the ship that I was building the deck plans for, with a correct size human (or battlesuit) individual in the image.

Having grid squares helps but having a visual to size drawing helps me more.

I usually draw in the centimeter scale on the program and then when done, I convert the grid to 1.5m squares (or blank depending on what I want the final image to look like.)

Dave Chase

 

[aramis]

When I draw deckplans, I use 1.2x2.1m as the bunk cabinet size, with a 1.1x2.0x0.1m mattress. The extra space is for being able to make the bed, and allow for a curtain.

 

[Scarecrow]

I used to fret and fret about this, going so far as using 3D models to get things exactly right.
Then one day I realised that it doesn't matter. At all. As long as the plans have exactly the items listed on the stat block then the size and shape are irrelevant. The ship is still game legal because it's still only got one hard point, four staterooms, or what have you. The exact size and shape of those elements is really irrelevant. Deckplans are very rarely used as anything other than obstacles to hide behind during a fire fight anyway.
I also realised that there's no point trying to make the plans game-legal for other people to use because there are so many versions of Traveller now that any deckplan produced is only going to be usable by a fraction of Traveller players anyway.
Just use your common sense. A commercial or military vessel is likely to be cramped with very conservative habitation space. The bare minimum living space necessary. Recreational craft like luxury liners will have luxurious staterooms and hall-like corridors. Yachts wil be somewhere in between depending on cost and size.

My advice: Make the floorplans look cool for your players and don't worry about it.

Oh and, 1200 DPI?!! Really?!! I usually find 300dpi is easily adequate, going down to 150 DPI if I'm pushed for memory.

Crow

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I used to fret and fret about this, going so far as using 3D models to get things exactly right.
Then one day I realised that it doesn't matter. At all.

Unless you care about doing it properly.

Or you want to share it with people who do.

Or you want to be nice to people who use deckplans as the basis for models.

For your own personal use, sure, do what you like, but if you want to share it with other people you really owe it to them to follow the rules, or to make it very clear when you haven't.

 

[Scarecrow]

But my point is that there's no need to do it "properly" because it doesn't make any difference. You can still make 3D models from deckplans that don't slavishly follow the design rules and as I said, sharing with others often fails because there's a strong chance that even if they do follow the rules, most folks won't be able to use them anyway because they'll be playing a different version of Traveller.

Crow

 

[BytePro]

Yeah, my deckplans tended to match the volumes very closely for CT (even calculating the volumes of curved spaces) - but, just like the credits, even the dTons is really more a meta-game accounting element for design calculations and 'balance' and probably better treated as an abstraction rather than specific measures.

A lot of 'official' deckplans don't even come close - and don't fit their illustrations, either. Though I'd prefer they did, its really never been an issue for any of my players (who could also care less that my plans match)...

and Scarecrow's ships and interiors are awesome!

[As are Andrew Boulton's!]

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Generally, the differences between versions aren't vast - a Suleiman is still 100dt whatever system you use. Fuel tanks and cargo holds might grow or shrink, but most of the rest stays the same. The rest can be waved away as the 10% slop allowed for all plans.

Why bother going to all the trouble of creating plans or a model if it doesn't match the thing it's supposed to represent?

 

[Scarecrow]

Why bother going to all the trouble of creating plans or a model if it doesn't match the thing it's supposed to represent?

Well, it would. Do the ship stats show only one hardpoint? Then so should the plans.
Four Staterooms? Only four on the plans. Etc.
The rest is just icing. Powerplant and drives? Well the book might give a displacement value but sometimes it's just cooler to have honking big engines. It won't affect the stats. They can still be J2, M2 but it'll look cooler.
Are your plans 90% Fuel tanks? That's dull and of no use on a floorplan, make the fuel area much smaller. It's still 80dTons on the stats. At a push, the rest can be 'underneath.'
Need a corridor over there? Bung one in. Again, it doesn't affect the game stats.

Now, where I will agree tonnage should be obeyed is cargo space, simply because it gives a visual cue as to the amount of cargo that can be carried by the ship. That's fair enough.

Regarding the difference between versions, I don't have the maths to hand but I'll take your substantially more experienced word on this. To my mind, what I'm proposing probably isn't any more broken than a ship passing between versions anyway.

There is, I think, a great deal of satisfaction to be had from making a set of deckplans work within the design rules. I know this, I've felt that rush of exhilaration many times in the past. I know it's something that drives a lot of the folks here and I understand that.

I'm not advocating that scout/couriers should be the size of a Star Destroyer, just that it's not going to break the game (or affect it at all) to drop the 10% rule and just go with what looks good and use common sense. Sure, use the design rules as a starting point and a guide, but there's no reason not to break free of them once they become restrictive. There's no need to slavishly adhere to the design rules for deckplans because they have no mechanical effect on the game.

Crow