Homeworld Identity... Homeworldism?
- Thread starter The Hinterworlds Rambler
- Start date
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
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In a word, dear Baron:
Yes. And the pyschological reasons that PC or even my NPC's have comes from their Homeworld identity.
As for the detour of why serve when home is pressing? We are talking about "TRAVELLER" characters--those who have travelled via starship off their worlds--not the masses who stayed [and are thus not Player characters usually].
Secondly, others have replied with much vigor on the pros and cons of why serve in IMperial service and comparing it to modern day service. I leave those remarks standing.
GOOD topic Baron S /me bows
Slainte!
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
(Produces a small prybar with which he removes the crating from an extrmely old and extremly rare Lancian Brandy and produces two nitrogen-chilled glasses)
Liam Devlin! Warrior! Adventurer!
Welcome Home, My Friend!
I have also been pondering Sectorism and Subsectorism as a by-product of my research into the Ilelish Revolt of late. So glad you enjoy the topic. I most certainly am. Great stuff, what?
It also leads to the concept of layered alllegience or layered service in character creation... like doing an Army character with a term of Homeworld Army, terms of Subsector or Sector, anf then some Imperial terms, which sounds interesting to try.
Again, Welcome Back!
Salud!
Liam Devlin! Warrior! Adventurer!
Welcome Home, My Friend!
I have also been pondering Sectorism and Subsectorism as a by-product of my research into the Ilelish Revolt of late. So glad you enjoy the topic. I most certainly am. Great stuff, what?
It also leads to the concept of layered alllegience or layered service in character creation... like doing an Army character with a term of Homeworld Army, terms of Subsector or Sector, anf then some Imperial terms, which sounds interesting to try.
Again, Welcome Back!
Salud!
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
takes brandy, toasts. [Gulp]! Lancian..been a while. Thank you--how'd ye guess i was thirsty?
The topic caught me eye, of course. Which will build upon the premise of regionalism--which good casey has touched upon briefly IIRC. and fits into your Sector-subsectorism threads-to-be.
Slainte!
PS--and its good to be back!
The topic caught me eye, of course. Which will build upon the premise of regionalism--which good casey has touched upon briefly IIRC. and fits into your Sector-subsectorism threads-to-be.
Slainte!
PS--and its good to be back!
It also leads to the concept of layered alllegience or layered service in character creation... like doing an Army character with a term of Homeworld Army, terms of Subsector or Sector, anf then some Imperial terms, which sounds interesting to try.
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It might also be remembered that "lawered alleigiance" though it can cause strain, can also be mutually reinforcing.
A classic case is the British Regimental system(which by the way is copied in the Unified Armies of the Imperium-or is that United Armies?-no matter).
Anyway each regiment is not merely a administrative organization, but a tribe or fraternity with it's own traditions, such as holidays, strange ceremonies and feuds, or friendships with other regiments. Each regiment is nominally connected to a given region so that both local and regimental patriotism are combined with national patriotism. In former times and to some degree to this day I suppose, the officers were made up of people who had all been to the same sort of posh schools, schools that had policies that tended to encourage a tremendous degree of group loyalty on the attendees(They had a negative affect though; they were hard on those that didn't fit in. Sometimes the result was harmless or even positive, and created an "eccentric" who might actually benefit Britain. Sometimes though it created someone like Kim Philby).
Anyway all these national loyalties, regimental loyalties, local loyalties, and class loyalties combined to make an army with tremendous cohesion. In addition it made colonial units better-all the British had to do was copy the system in vassals, and they got very good results because though colonials might be indifferent to Britain they were loyal to there regiment and the reputation of their particular region.
The point of all this is that the "layered loyalties" are often mutually reinforcing. When there comes a time when such loyalties seem to be mutually exclusive instability will set in. An empire that can prevent that is likly to be successful. In fact I suspect that the 3I has psychologists and simmilar people assigned to make sure the "layered loyalties" work to it's advantage. And of course the nobility who had been bred for their whole lives in this system would know instinctively how to make it work-perhaps better than the shrinks.
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It might also be remembered that "lawered alleigiance" though it can cause strain, can also be mutually reinforcing.
A classic case is the British Regimental system(which by the way is copied in the Unified Armies of the Imperium-or is that United Armies?-no matter).
Anyway each regiment is not merely a administrative organization, but a tribe or fraternity with it's own traditions, such as holidays, strange ceremonies and feuds, or friendships with other regiments. Each regiment is nominally connected to a given region so that both local and regimental patriotism are combined with national patriotism. In former times and to some degree to this day I suppose, the officers were made up of people who had all been to the same sort of posh schools, schools that had policies that tended to encourage a tremendous degree of group loyalty on the attendees(They had a negative affect though; they were hard on those that didn't fit in. Sometimes the result was harmless or even positive, and created an "eccentric" who might actually benefit Britain. Sometimes though it created someone like Kim Philby).
Anyway all these national loyalties, regimental loyalties, local loyalties, and class loyalties combined to make an army with tremendous cohesion. In addition it made colonial units better-all the British had to do was copy the system in vassals, and they got very good results because though colonials might be indifferent to Britain they were loyal to there regiment and the reputation of their particular region.
The point of all this is that the "layered loyalties" are often mutually reinforcing. When there comes a time when such loyalties seem to be mutually exclusive instability will set in. An empire that can prevent that is likly to be successful. In fact I suspect that the 3I has psychologists and simmilar people assigned to make sure the "layered loyalties" work to it's advantage. And of course the nobility who had been bred for their whole lives in this system would know instinctively how to make it work-perhaps better than the shrinks.
What I'd like to know is why anyone would want to join the Imperial armed forces in the first place. Why would you want to defend some abstract, distant interstellar empire from even more distant threats when your own homeworld needs you to deal with threats that are much closer to home?
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Ben-gurion once made a comment on that problem: before independance each Kibbutz militia could defend it's Kibbutz. To make the State of Israel creditable people had to be willing to kill and die for an abstraction.
However it was easier in that case as Israel was already such a well engrained idea.
In any case it isn't hard to imagine. Soldiers do that sort of thing all the time. Every large state has that problem.
On the other hand there are a lot of things to factor in besides size. Sometimes people find it easier to identify with the large state(can you imagine people going into battle cheering for the glory of Holy Mother St. Petersburg?). The very size of the Imperium has an aesthtic quality-though some find it sterile others find it sublime and still others do both.
Also there is presumably a tacit assumption that the Imperium will protect your homeworld.
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Ben-gurion once made a comment on that problem: before independance each Kibbutz militia could defend it's Kibbutz. To make the State of Israel creditable people had to be willing to kill and die for an abstraction.
However it was easier in that case as Israel was already such a well engrained idea.
In any case it isn't hard to imagine. Soldiers do that sort of thing all the time. Every large state has that problem.
On the other hand there are a lot of things to factor in besides size. Sometimes people find it easier to identify with the large state(can you imagine people going into battle cheering for the glory of Holy Mother St. Petersburg?). The very size of the Imperium has an aesthtic quality-though some find it sterile others find it sublime and still others do both.
Also there is presumably a tacit assumption that the Imperium will protect your homeworld.
Jatay:
depends upon whether or not one use the "Every sophont within the imperium is a subject and therefore a protected being" or "Every sophont within the imperium is a citizen and therefore a protected being" version of the quote.
If the former, then citizen ship must be earned, and therefore being an imperial citizen might be beneficial.
IMTU, there is a subject/citizen distinction. Joining the imperial military or civil service grants citizenship, IMTU. As does holding an Able ticket or better as a civil spacer. Nobles are inherently citizens.
Imperial Citizens have additional rights, IMTU, like the right to travel (subject to being able to afford to), the right of appeal to the nobility, the right to public trial by a jury in a prompt fashion.
If, on the other hand, any sophont in the Imperium is a citizen, then other reasons need to be found. For example, recruiting from the slums... a chance to have a decent life and have one's children escape the slums. Pretty much the same reasons the US Army trades on these days.
depends upon whether or not one use the "Every sophont within the imperium is a subject and therefore a protected being" or "Every sophont within the imperium is a citizen and therefore a protected being" version of the quote.
If the former, then citizen ship must be earned, and therefore being an imperial citizen might be beneficial.
IMTU, there is a subject/citizen distinction. Joining the imperial military or civil service grants citizenship, IMTU. As does holding an Able ticket or better as a civil spacer. Nobles are inherently citizens.
Imperial Citizens have additional rights, IMTU, like the right to travel (subject to being able to afford to), the right of appeal to the nobility, the right to public trial by a jury in a prompt fashion.
If, on the other hand, any sophont in the Imperium is a citizen, then other reasons need to be found. For example, recruiting from the slums... a chance to have a decent life and have one's children escape the slums. Pretty much the same reasons the US Army trades on these days.
With you on this Aramis. Service = Citizenship IMTU, although nobility of the lower ranks do not automatically receive citizenship.
IMTU the Imperium sells itself as the protector and watcher of Terrans. So service in a greater cause is also a motive for some.
[excess info warning] IMTU the Imperium is homebrew. It was founded by humans from Terra (no Vilani, Zhodani, etc. exist IMTU). The Imperium (actually it started as Republic) was founded after humans faced two wars of genocide/enslavement waged against them. One at TL 9 and another later at TL 12. The later war ending in the near total destruction of sentient life on Terra and the destruction of many colonies. These events, although distant, still effect the psychology of many Terrans (including uplifted species).
IMTU the Imperium sells itself as the protector and watcher of Terrans. So service in a greater cause is also a motive for some.
[excess info warning] IMTU the Imperium is homebrew. It was founded by humans from Terra (no Vilani, Zhodani, etc. exist IMTU). The Imperium (actually it started as Republic) was founded after humans faced two wars of genocide/enslavement waged against them. One at TL 9 and another later at TL 12. The later war ending in the near total destruction of sentient life on Terra and the destruction of many colonies. These events, although distant, still effect the psychology of many Terrans (including uplifted species).
Yes truly.
The genesis of MTU being a large function of starting in 1978 and not having access to or money to buy supplemental material. Also from OD&D I thought you were just supposed to make your own homebrew setting asa part of being a GM.It also had a lot to do with reading sci-fi for years before getting the game. The original conception was more Roman Empire-meets-Frank Herbert-meets-Larry Niven. The first because speed of travel=speed of communication it was a historical model readily at hand. Much later to add in a dash of David Brin. Which worked quite well as I already had dolphins as sophonts, but not the whole uplift thing of Mr. Brin.
Hence, I'm always interested in homebrew non-OTU settings and how people arrived there.
depends upon whether or not one use the "Every sophont within the imperium is a subject and therefore a protected being" or "Every sophont within the imperium is a citizen and therefore a protected being" version of the quote.
If the former, then citizen ship must be earned, and therefore being an imperial citizen might be beneficial.
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How about,"not said and interpreted as convenient".
After all an Englishman with a fondness for old-fashioned usage might call himself a "subject" of the Queen-but that doesn't mean he concedes her right to cut off his head if he forgets to call her "your majesty".
The legal status of a Sophant who obeys the Emperor directly might be the same as one who lives under a planetary ruler-but the prestiege might be different.
Also there are advantages to serving the Emperor besides citizenship.
pay
immunization
free technical education(not necessarily as one of the perks, though that is offered to Scouts; sometimes simply on the job training).
With all this he can be a "big-man" when he returns to his little villiage.
As I understand these are actually some of the motives of the Gurkhas-being the one person for miles that is fammiliar with hi-tech can set one up pretty well(I.E knowing how to fix a broken engine, being a computer-clerk for a local merchant-several have struck it rich in some parts of the world that way). Thus the British get VERY high quality people in the Gurkhas, being able to reject nine out of ten recruits.
If the former, then citizen ship must be earned, and therefore being an imperial citizen might be beneficial.
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How about,"not said and interpreted as convenient".
After all an Englishman with a fondness for old-fashioned usage might call himself a "subject" of the Queen-but that doesn't mean he concedes her right to cut off his head if he forgets to call her "your majesty".
The legal status of a Sophant who obeys the Emperor directly might be the same as one who lives under a planetary ruler-but the prestiege might be different.
Also there are advantages to serving the Emperor besides citizenship.
pay
immunization
free technical education(not necessarily as one of the perks, though that is offered to Scouts; sometimes simply on the job training).
With all this he can be a "big-man" when he returns to his little villiage.
As I understand these are actually some of the motives of the Gurkhas-being the one person for miles that is fammiliar with hi-tech can set one up pretty well(I.E knowing how to fix a broken engine, being a computer-clerk for a local merchant-several have struck it rich in some parts of the world that way). Thus the British get VERY high quality people in the Gurkhas, being able to reject nine out of ten recruits.
I think a lot of how you precieve the Imperuim comes from your personal background. My home state is South Carolina, while my wife is from Michigan. We currently live in Tennessee, about half way between the two. All 3 states are part of the United States. Our citizenship is in the United States, not in our home states. We do however have ties to our home states in that most of both of our families still reside in our respective home states. We also have ties to the state where we currently reside. None of these factors make us any less a citizen of the USA.
All that being said, I still think of my home state and/or my state of residence as being part of something bigger. In Traveller, I think of the Imperium as something bigger because in my mind, I relate it to that with I am familiar. I obey the laws of the state where I am, unless I know for a fact that they conflict with those of a higher authority. If you come from a different background, I would expect you to react based on that background.
All that being said, I still think of my home state and/or my state of residence as being part of something bigger. In Traveller, I think of the Imperium as something bigger because in my mind, I relate it to that with I am familiar. I obey the laws of the state where I am, unless I know for a fact that they conflict with those of a higher authority. If you come from a different background, I would expect you to react based on that background.
Andy is right. I'm a Texan first, and an "American" second.
But actually, I'm really more like a Zonie (Arizona) than a Texan. The cultures are noticeably different. So though my birth world is Texas, my homeworld is Arizona, and my career is currenly here in Texas.
But actually, I'm really more like a Zonie (Arizona) than a Texan. The cultures are noticeably different. So though my birth world is Texas, my homeworld is Arizona, and my career is currenly here in Texas.
For my wife's corsair Captain, Bette Noire, the Imperial Naval Academy & Navy was the best place to gain the best naval training to become a corsair.
Manax Darkhstarr is pretty much of a vagabond, he spent most of his career (still active) in the scouts or the diplomatic service-his loyalty more to an abstract concept of the Third Imperium than to any world.
With Bette Noire, her corsair ships are registered on Lilith/Mapepire in the Beyond, but she has no loyalty to it other than monetary. The only bit of nostalgia she feels is more towards the Imperial Navy (despite her publicly declared dislike & contempt of it.
With my wife's Imperial IBIS agent, she does have a love of her homeworld of Tarsus. Whenever Imperial Intelligence allows her she spends much of her time there, involved in local issues(as SUSAG found out in one adventure).
My corsair captain, Deron Cortez is an ex-free trader from Trayfowen/Mapepire in the Beyond.
His ship is registered there, his family there, & he a popular venture capitalist on that world.
With Bette Noire, her corsair ships are registered on Lilith/Mapepire in the Beyond, but she has no loyalty to it other than monetary. The only bit of nostalgia she feels is more towards the Imperial Navy (despite her publicly declared dislike & contempt of it.
With my wife's Imperial IBIS agent, she does have a love of her homeworld of Tarsus. Whenever Imperial Intelligence allows her she spends much of her time there, involved in local issues(as SUSAG found out in one adventure).
My corsair captain, Deron Cortez is an ex-free trader from Trayfowen/Mapepire in the Beyond.
His ship is registered there, his family there, & he a popular venture capitalist on that world.
I would think that would depend on the world(s), the culture, the political outlook, whether their a small nation (one of many states on a world, single planet or system state), and where or how they emigrated to their new worlds. Many of the states in my Beyond campaign (based off Paranoid Press material largely) are regional in outlook because their of small world/syatem states and many of their political alliances are either mutual defense or commercial. In large groups that span a sector or several sectors you'll have people who have a wider sense of indentity either through idealism, greed, greater social contact, or career.
With career, you can have people who identify by their culture or job. Free traders in my campaign are people who see themselves as 'free traders' as a social class of themselves. Many corsairs are/or have been free traders & have a sense of brotherhood with free traders they don't share with other criminal classes. I also treat mercs as a brotherhood because of their status in the Traveller universe.
And religious sects can have a greater sense of identity in their own religion than with their native world.
And in my campaign there are the Poicxh. An insectoid race that's been thrown off homeworlds
twice by the encroaching Aslan. They're gypsies of space wandering throughout the sector in hiveships ruled by queens, manning corsairs under princesses or just selling their skills.
So, since I've been overly long I'll state that cliche 'home if where the heart is.' Life is complex (or simple) like that.
