How advantageous is a black globe?

[sabredog]

I like the suggestion made earlier (can't remember who to credit sorry) of adjusting the batteries bearing instead, but then the BG wouldn't impact on the spinal mount.

Me.

But that aside, the spinal gun is THE ship-killer and entire point of building big capital ships. They only point in one direction (so long as you assume "spinal" means built along the axis of the ship - which all the canon sources show) so that weapon would be the easiest to synch (and most important) with the flicker. Therefor you could make an argument that the flicker shouldn't have to affect the spinal weapon at all unless the spinal gun doesn't fire as often as all the other weapons do....but that's a ref thing, canon doesn't address rate of fire.

But the combat round is a long time so I figure the spinal guns fire at a significantly lower ROF than the other weapons or there'd be even more dice rolling and vaporizing ships (read: even more tedious book keeping) than there already is. So I figure the thing has to cool down, charge up, compute range and all that (especially important for the meson guns), and get the guy with the visor to run out into the barrel to pull the fire lever - ergo: it probably fires only a few times in a round, and the bigger the gun then probably the lower the ROF.

Plus don't forget that the only batteries that are affected by the battery bearing reduction rule are the non-spinal ones. The spinal weapon isn't technically a "battery" anyway. It's just a monster honkin' gun that looks always reminds me of the wave-motion gun on the Spacebattleship Yamato. No that that's a bad thing.

This is why I think the original rule of the configuration of the ship determining the number of batteries bearing than the size. A globe like the Tigress should have a much smaller number of batteries bearing than say, a dispersed structure or a wedge (which is why almost all of my original ships used to all look like Star Destroyers than close structures like they do now - the wedges had more guns pointed at the enemy than the other configurations did).

 

[rancke]

I'm with Sabredog on this one. The flicker shouldn't be random as far as the firing player is concerned and a 40% flick in a 20 minute turn could be as long as 8 consecutive minutes. That is an extreme example tho.

The term 'flicker rate' would seem to indicate that the black globe flickers, not remain on and off for minutes at a time.

I think the virtual armor the screen provides is an effect of less energy hitting the ship. 40% (flicker rate 4 assumed throughout) of the energy is diverted harmlessly to the ship's capacitors. The ship with the globe in turn syncronizes its spinal gun to only fire when the screen is off. This results in the spinal only being 'on' 60% of the time and thus only delivering 60% of its full capacity. The remaining 40% does not hit its own screen, it simply isn't fired off in the first place.

What can be assumed is that the ability to launch missiles over a 20 minute turn is now reduced to the ability to launch over a 12 minute turn after allowing for and controlling all the flickering. Hence the penalties apply (increasing targets armor).

It seems to me that the firing ship should be able to keep the screen off for the second or two it would take for a missile salvo to pass through. During those couple of seconds the ship would be subject to the full 100% of the incoming energy, but since a combat round is 1200 seconds, the effect is below the resolution of the rules.

Incoming missiles is a different matter. Not only would the flickering screen slice an incoming missile into thousands of very thin slices, but the defenders should be able to track incoming missiles and keep the screen on full time for the second or two it would take to block the incoming missile (though that would transfer the full amount of energy to the capacitors). The comcomittant loss of energy beam time is, again, below the resolution of the rules.

It's possible that the flicker is in terms of seconds rather than milliseconds. In that case an incoming missile ought to have a 4 in 10 chance of hitting the screen.


Hans

 

[sabredog]

The term 'flicker rate' would seem to indicate that the black globe flickers, not remain on and off for minutes at a time.

....

It's possible that the flicker is in terms of seconds rather than milliseconds. In that case an incoming missile ought to have a 4 in 10 chance of hitting the screen.


Hans

Agreed - the flicker is going to have to be in terms of seconds or less or it's not going to do any good at all, and why the lower the flicker rate the better the protection you get - and why you don't get to shoot as often.

Maybe since missiles are causing such a conundrum we should figure out how fast they go in the first place. But since they are considered a long-range weapon as opposed to short range maybe it doesn't matter - the target has plenty of time (relative to a short-range beam lightspeed beam weapon) to use counter-measures: missiles have to get through a lot as it is: sand, lasers, repulsors, nuke dampers,then finally armor. And what effect, if any, does a BG have on those?

If there is a stand-off distance from the ship to the inside of the BG field, and a weapon gets through it does the weapon then have to re-roll against all the other countermeasures available? And in what order - logically it'd be the BG first, then down the standard tables in HG.

HG doesn't say anything about this: it's another area of annoying confusion about the things. I mean, if you're firing off anti-missile lasers inside a BG aren't you then hitting the thing and dumping more energy into it? Likewise the meson screens and nuke damper? Oh, it makes my head hurt just to think of how much more dice-rolling and scribbling has to go into all this.

 

[far-trader]

...Incoming missiles is a different matter. Not only would the flickering screen slice an incoming missile into thousands of very thin slices, but the defenders should be able to track incoming missiles and keep the screen on full time for the second or two it would take to block the incoming missile (though that would transfer the full amount of energy to the capacitors).

(BIG) presumption being the missiles are kinetic kill and not standoff nukes or x-ray pumped lasers.

And even if they are kk missiles unless your screens are seriously quick flickers they won't be sliced into thousands of parts or even two parts. They will pass through whole or not at all. The whole point of KK missiles (of the size of Traveller missiles at least) is extremely high closing velocities.

It's possible that the flicker is in terms of seconds rather than milliseconds. In that case an incoming missile ought to have a 4 in 10 chance of hitting the screen.

This feels more like the intent to me. ymmv of course.

 

[Birdrock]

My theory is that the black globe is just a step along the path that includes nuclear dampers, meson screens, jump dampers, and the like. It just protects against more things than earlier defenses, at the cost of absorbed energy storage issues, and it's a more or less spherical projection rather than a more localized one (which is how I think of screens, but I don't know for sure that screens aren't also spheres, right?)

In fact, consider that the jump drive itself could be of the same general class of devices as dampers, screens, and globes.

 

[sabredog]

Regardless of the place BG's have on the evolutionary chart of screening technology - they are definitely spherical (black globe and are some sort of Ancient alien tech that operates in a very different way from the other screens.

Repulsors may be localized since they have to be "aimed" at the incoming missile waves to work. Nuclear dampers and meson screen need to protect the entire ship at the whole time since they can have the threat come from anywhere and are passive anyway so its a more efficient system to have them either ON or OFF and when on cover the whole ship. And logically, since they are radiating energy in a presumably even pattern to protect the ship they would have to be a sphere or there would be weak spots the enemy could find and exploit.

But BG's are very different from all the others and a big reason why they cause headaches isn't because of that so much as because the designers left so many loose threads and inconsistencies in the rules. Too bad nobody came out with a "The Race For The Lost Black Globe Shop Manual" adventure to clear it all up.

 

[Matt123]

From HG;

In order to strike the black globe, the weapon must first hit and penetrate all defenses.

Active & passive defenses work without penalty, before the BG is struck.

 

[McPerth]

Since missiles are going at a VERY slow speed (compared to beam weapons) I'd say that you can't squeeze them through the very small window of time that the BG is "off" during flicker. So, no launching at all.

If so, then the BG it's more a hindrance than an advantage for the ship arrying it...

Incoming missiles is a different matter. Not only would the flickering screen slice an incoming missile into thousands of very thin slices, but the defenders should be able to track incoming missiles and keep the screen on full time for the second or two it would take to block the incoming missile (though that would transfer the full amount of energy to the capacitors). The comcomittant loss of energy beam time is, again, below the resolution of the rules.

I guess if you launch a salvo of 25-30 missiles, not all of them would arrive at the same seccond, so this tracking them and putting the BG at full time when they arrive would keep it on for too long a time.

If you could do that, enemy can also track them and synchronize its beams to hit you at those secconds, so overloading you energy sinks with all the energy of their weaponry, making BG more dangerous than any advantage it gives to you.

 

[whartung]

Was it documented anywhere that BG interfere with physical things at all? Compared to simply absorbing energy (thus the "black" part)?

As I recall, none of the Traveller missiles are really "impact". The discussions of what happens when something like a missile actually impacts a ship move at the velocities that Traveller ships move have been legion enough. So, as I understand it, missiles are mostly "proximity" things. TNE adopted this by making missiles simply close laser platforms. Thus ridding the details of high speed impact.

Which will cue another debate as to the actual effectiveness of high explosives in the vacuum of space. But we'll hand wave that away for the moment.

A BG could absorb most of the effects of a proximity blast, since it's basically heat and other radiation. It would not, arguably, absorb shrapnel (which brings us back to the "legion" discussions mentioned above).

That would imply that launch ANYTHING (missile, fighter, ships boat, Romulan Nuclear Space Mine, etc.) out of a BG would be straight forward -- it just moves through.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it was always my impression BGs simply absorbed energy, and flicker was flicker - like a film projector. More flicker, more absorption up to 100%.

The only detail here is reaction mass. Since I don't know how inertialess drives work, and how a BG would "absorb" that. But reaction mass is just that...mass. Stuff. Tons of it to push the ship around. That would imply that you COULD maneuver inside of a BG, but you would lose any stealth effects....maybe...hard to say.

Easier I guess to turn the Hand Wavium knob up to Eleventy.

 

[McPerth]

Was it documented anywhere that BG interfere with physical things at all? Compared to simply absorbing energy (thus the "black" part)?

I think to remember that somewhere (sorry, I don't recall where) was said the first examples of BG found were activated by a technician and he died instantaneously as half of him was absorbed by it. After that they activated another with a rod and the half of the rod inside the BG disapeared, not being able to turn it off again.

That seems to point matter is also absorbed by BG (though nowhere, AFAIK, tells about converting this matter to energy and diverting it to the sinks, as probably they would blow up instantaneously).

 

[navanod]

Freelance Traveller article found HERE. ISTR reading it in one of the books, but that might just be my shoddy memory at work.

 

[Matt123]

I guess if you launch a salvo of 25-30 missiles, not all of them would arrive at the same seccond, so this tracking them and putting the BG at full time when they arrive would keep it on for too long a time.

If you could do that, enemy can also track them and synchronize its beams to hit you at those secconds, so overloading you energy sinks with all the energy of their weaponry, making BG more dangerous than any advantage it gives to you.

On the one hand you are firing your own well documented missiles creating a well established vector, timed to arrive simultaneously at a very close fixed surface which you can switch on/off to the micro-second. Switching the BG off using fire control computers, is obviously not a problem, nor is switching it back on.

On the other hand, the opponent, several light seconds away, has to receive sensor information on the state of the BG (taking several seconds), process it (near instantaneous) and return fire (lasers taking several seconds to return). For a (several seconds x2) delay in response, to hit a window of opportunity that can be measured in fractions of a second.

My physics isn't great, so feel free to critique my math on how long it takes a 1m long turret missile at 6g to pass a fixed point. I'll take a guess that the missile moves roughly 60m in its 1st second, 360m in its 2nd second. And the BG as the final layer of defense is likely within 60m of the firing point. Meaning a 1/10th of a second switched off would cover it and allow for a safety margin. And a BG-4 cannot be on for more than 4/10th of a second.

 

[Matt123]

Freelance Traveller article found HERE. ISTR reading it in one of the books, but that might just be my shoddy memory at work.

Ta for that. My eyebrows raised more than usual at the assertion stored energy could be used for jump without fuel. Under HG at least that is specifically not allowed, a ship must also have jump fuel.

But otherwise an interesting read.