How come the Vilani are still alive?

[Moondragon007]

When they first entered space, they were like the Martians in War of the Worlds - clueless about microbes, with naive immune systems to match. They're very very lucky their early explorers didn't bring back a pathogen and wipe out their whole planet.

 

[mike wightman]

They were genetically modified by the Ancients to be alien microbe resistant. It wasn't until they encountered Terran diseases that had 300,000 years of co-evolution with humans that their immune systems couldn't cope.

 

[kilemall]

When they first entered space, they were like the Martians in War of the Worlds - clueless about microbes, with naive immune systems to match. They're very very lucky their early explorers didn't bring back a pathogen and wipe out their whole planet.

I don’t know that I buy being dropped in an alien biochemistry translates to complete ignorance of germs. Humans need their gut flora so that couldn’t be eliminated, that’s a Petri dish of sources for mutation of diseases.

 

[Spinward Flow]

When they first entered space, they were like the Martians in War of the Worlds - clueless about microbes, with naive immune systems to match. They're very very lucky their early explorers didn't bring back a pathogen and wipe out their whole planet.

My basic assumption is that the Vilani established a space station starport and funneled ALL interstellar traffic through that location with full quarantine procedures and customs to limit the potential for alien plague imports to Vilani. This would have "insulated" the Vilani homeworld from interstellar contact until reaching TL=10-12 at which point Life Sciences and Medicine advances dramatically reduce the risk of interstellar plagues.

However, since Vilani started their interstellar exploration at TL=9, the space station starport infrastructure was already established and entrenched with vested interests invested in the status quo, so the quarantine and customs arrangements (which were now objectively superfluous) were retained and perpetuated in the interests of investors in that infrastructure and economic model (it worked for them and limited competition, so keep it that way).

As Life Sciences and Medical technologies "proliferated outwards" through explored space, the "orbital gateway quarantine and customs" model used at Vland/Vland for interstellar commerce was not needed elsewhere, allowing for more "open" interstellar trading infrastructures to be built out elsewhere (at their own risk, of course), while Vland/Vland retained the practice well past its medical usefulness date in service to incumbent interests and to assuage any xenophobic fears the worldbound native population might harbor relating to "alien influences and diseases" being introduced to Vland itself.

Basically an overly cautious approach that is also resistant to change once established.



Does that work for you?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I don’t know that I buy being dropped in an alien biochemistry translates to complete ignorance of germs. Humans need their gut flora so that couldn’t be eliminated, that’s a Petri dish of sources for mutation of diseases.

There is also the part they themselves were alien biology to their "homeworld" Vland. The reason for the existence of the shugili is their use of the "secret" fermentation processes to make the somewhat indigestible native life, digestible. Depending on the nature of that life, they might have analogues to rot and decay of organic material. I think, perhaps, that like other secrets kept by an elite, the shugili may have known more than the general populace but suppressed knowledge to maintain their vaunted positions of power as the feeders of the people.

They were not ignorant of their origins. By the time of the Agent of the Imperium novel, it makes reference that the Vilani had known that their planet had Ancients war machines and they had been transplanted. They just did not know the actual originating planet.

 

[Kakistocrat]

Depending on the nature of that [Vland native] life, they might have analogues to rot and decay of organic material.

The Vilani language has two different scent adjectives for that: gasliir (“rotten”), for the smell that’s produced by organic material decaying through the action of Terran-derived bacteria, and urkhida (“fermenting”), for the smell that’s produced by organic material decaying through the action of Vilani microorganisms. These adjectives are described as representing distinctively different odors.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The Vilani language has two different scent adjectives for that: gasliir (“rotten”), for the smell that’s produced by organic material decaying through the action of Terran-derived bacteria, and urkhida (“fermenting”), for the smell that’s produced by organic material decaying through the action of Vilani microorganisms. These adjectives are described as representing distinctively different odors.

Like Eskimos have 14 words for snow*, the Vilani have many words for "ewww... it's not ready yet."

-----------------
* 1: they don't, really -- just compound words as in English or especially German -- and 2: they're either Alaska Natives or (Canadian) First Nations anyhow. (Or members of their specific nations or tribes. They're entitled to their own terms...)

 

[BackworldTraveller]

The Vilani language has two different scent adjectives for that: gasliir (“rotten”), for the smell that’s produced by organic material decaying through the action of Terran-derived bacteria, and urkhida (“fermenting”), for the smell that’s produced by organic material decaying through the action of Vilani microorganisms. These adjectives are described as representing distinctively different odors.

Given that both Chemistry and Physics are common (always a worryingly variable given in sci-fi) then convergent evolution should make similar processes operate similarly. So yes, the specific bug may vary but the fermenting process would still change sugar into alcohol and gas. Just look at how many ways that happens in the ecosystem we have here.
The Ancients were clearly compatible with the Human/Canine biochemical environment - and no human/canine is bug-free and alive.

p.s. just looking at the number of words used in my family for "Rain", starts to give the mythical Eskimo "Snow" language credence

 

[Krikkitone]

Given that both Chemistry and Physics are common (always a worryingly variable given in sci-fi) then convergent evolution should make similar processes operate similarly. So yes, the specific bug may vary but the fermenting process would still change sugar into alcohol and gas. Just look at how many ways that happens in the ecosystem we have here.
The Ancients were clearly compatible with the Human/Canine biochemical environment - and no human/canine is bug-free and alive.

p.s. just looking at the number of words used in my family for "Rain", starts to give the mythical Eskimo "Snow" language credence

Sugar changes into many many different things besides alcohol and gas. That’s only one pathway.
Also
While Chemistry is common, Biochemistry is not. Vilani microbes fermenting terran life forms are handling macromolecules not normally found on Vland. So it would be a significantly different process than Terran fermentation.

 

[Grav_Moped]

p.s. just looking at the number of words used in my family for "Rain", starts to give the mythical Eskimo "Snow" language credence

Talk to skiiers or snowboarders!

It's a function of a language's structure. Powder, fresh powder, and packed powder are a base noun plus two application of adjectives. In a language that tends toward compounding nouns and their adjectives into a single word, those could be three distinct words. Or the adjective alone could imply the noun ("It's covered in fresh up there"), again giving three distinct "words for snow" when it's one word (noun) plus adjectives.

Languages are weird. (Inaert cartoon about gerunds here.)

 

[Krikkitone]

For the original question. Vilani would have had their own microbiome, and since they would be TL 9, they would probably understand germ theory (observing it in the rest of Vland)…add on the 1 week minimum isolation period of jump, and a ship coming back with sick people would be easy to quarantine.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Like it says, "In The OTU".
What we should be looking at is finding a way to validate the premise if possible. My vote is a combination of a lack of case studies, a lack of interest and suppression of knowledge:
Lack of interest - well not so much interest, but a lack of available free time. When the Ancient war machines were still running, people had better things to do like run, not get killed in their battles, gather foodstuffs, ferment and eat.
Lack of case studies - we don't know what additional flora or fauna, if any, were transplanted to Vland. In this case I'd even put intestinal flora on the list as well. The Ancients' Tech Levels are in the upper 20s and niggling details like bacteria and virii are not beyond them. The bioweapons used to kill the Droyne and Chirpers on the Zhdodani homeworld and moon millennia after The Final War is good example of their skill. It might be the the Vilani never looked into it until they met a minor human race like say the Geonee or going further back, the Answerwin, bring some plague stemming from compatible bacteria in cross contact. A real life example is the Aztecs and the Spaniards and smallpox.
More forthcoming...

 

[Krikkitone]

They would have had agriculture of native Vilani organisms that they can throw in their fermenting vats.

Those Vilani organisms would have gotten sick from Vilani microbes. They would have wondered ?why did the entire crop just die?


The shugilii caste would know about germ theory and infectious disease by TL 9 (especially if they use microbes to ferment). They might not have good ways to treat it (Poor Vilani biology tech) but quarantining is the lowest TL treatment for a disease.

Undoubtably, some ships/space stations had their entire population die, but within a system, they have lightspeed communications to say “that is off limits go back”

The example we have (Spanish and Aztec) can’t be more different.

The Aztec (the ones with the naive immune systems) were not in control of the conditions of contact (and had limited knowledge of germ theory)

The Vilani would have understood that infectious diseases can spread, and would have been in control of not only contact conditions, but also how things moved around within their empire.

Also, OTU Vilani discovered minor human races 68 years before Jump drive. At that point it is years of time between one world and the next. Some colonies/ships coming back to Vland were probably lost because the crew got space pox, but those ships would then be quarantined/destroyed.

So they were lucky…but the odds were in their favor with a little bit of control and regulation (the Vilani are good at that). Perhaps the experience of losing ships/colonies to infectious diseases that could have wiped out the homeworld made them even more conservative.

 

[Condottiere]

Terran microbes are just more aggressive, and more varied.

 

[mike wightman]

GT ISW:

Early in the Interstellar Wars era, many Human citizens of the Imperium found themselves to be susceptible to certain Terran viral diseases.
Imperial Human characters that have not had much previous exposure to Terrans may take this disadvantage to reflect this weakness in their evolved immunity. The frequency of the noxious substance is “occasional” if exposure to Terrans is infrequent, or “common” if the character is going to be dealing with Terrans on a regular basis.

The primitive Vilani were not entirely uninterested in biological science. Most food items had to be extensively processed before they could be eaten, a requirement that encouraged the shugilii caste to carefully study the plant and animal species around them. However, since native disease organisms were almost unable to affect the Human body, the Vilani were never motivated to delve deep
into the biological sciences. Even today, the Vilani have only a limited understanding of cellular biology or
the germ theory of disease.
The Imperial Standard Technology is at an early TL7 level for biotechnology and most areas of medical science. Through trial and error, the Vilani have developed advanced surgical techniques, including the ability to perform safe blood transfusions and some major-organ transplants. Their understanding of biochemistry is primitive, and they have not discovered the structure or role of DNA.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So they were lucky…but the odds were in their favor with a little bit of control and regulation (the Vilani are good at that). Perhaps the experience of losing ships/colonies to infectious diseases that could have wiped out the homeworld made them even more conservative.

THIS.

 

[kilemall]

Terran microbes are just more aggressive, and more varied.

More vectors too through plants and animals.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

When they first entered space, they were like the Martians in War of the Worlds - clueless about microbes, with naive immune systems to match. They're very very lucky their early explorers didn't bring back a pathogen and wipe out their whole planet.

Keep in mind the first Vilani interstellar expeditions were sunlight....
... Which gives plenty of quarantine time. They'd have learned the hard way, from all the would have taken place on the way home. Or ship automation would have brought a ghost ship in....

Hard on the crew, but it would work as a firewall for the planet

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Regarding secrets, which is better, in the interests of controlling the various peoples of Vilani Empire:

• curing diseases via immunization
• treating diseases with effective drugs

Curing illness via vaccination is not as profitable as developing drugs to arrest an illness, but not cure it. You get frequent buyers that way. Disease can be a harsh and effective population control method. In this case, there is no need to create bioweapons, just stop shipping the drugs and let nature take its course. In this case I am reminded of the Firefly episode "The Train Job" with Bowden's Disease. Just one shipment and everyone was freaking with worry and despair over one late shipment of a drug which arrests the progression of Bowden's, but does not cure it.

Because the shuligi controlled food production, they likely developed that whole weird (IMO) patenting processes forever. Or a rival trade did so in an effort to reduce the power of the shuligi. Combine this with the general Vilani conservatism and the way new things are ignored ("well its worked this way for hundreds of years"). It may well also be that the Vilani medical industry learned all about germs, virii and all the rest, but have that knowledge locked up in secret inaccessible area of the AAB or behind whatever keeps those patents safe. And heavens forbid someone independently develops their own cures. Extreme suppression of technology by the Vilani is not unheard of (see: Luriani and Jump-2 drives).

 

[mike wightman]

I re-iterate extant canon on the matter:

Even today, the Vilani have only a limited understanding of cellular biology or the germ theory of disease.
The Imperial Standard Technology is at an early TL7 level for biotechnology and most areas of medical science. Through trial and error, the Vilani have developed advanced surgical techniques, including the ability to perform safe blood transfusions and some major-organ transplants. Their understanding of biochemistry is primitive, and they have not discovered the structure or role of DNA.