How deadly is T20?

[thewh0]

I've read a lot of posts/articles/ etc. saying that the Traveller universe is a dangerous place and how firefights are deadly and best avoided.

With Lifeblood taking such a long time to heal, I was curious how a game flows. Is it have one encounter, then everyone retreats to a safe place for a week of healing, then move on to the next encounter? Or are the adventures generally set up in such a way that you can move from one encounter to the next and you don't need to heal in-between.

I come from a D&D background and don't have much experience in the Traveller realm. We've started "Stoner Express", but haven't done anything but go from Starport to Starport, yet. I'm used to D&D, where you hack&slash a bunch of nasties, have the healing machine, er, cleric, fix you up and then hack&slash the next bunch of nasties.

Thanks,
Rem Kodarr

 

[Falkayn]

Hehe ... first point, don't get hurt without easy access to a hospital.

Second point ... don't start a fight unless you're willing to spend at least days, if not weeks recuperating from the effects.

Third point ... do not mess with local cops when the law level prohibits nasty weapons. They will splat you like a bug.

Fourth point ... luck plays a larger part in survival than great skills levels or natural abilities.

Fifth point ... weapon and armor choice is the largest part of success in combat. The better equipped you are the (much) more likely your side wins. OTOH see the fourth point for the only problem with this thinking (natural 20s happen for punks with .22 pistols too you know).

So having said all that, if the group of PCs happens to be much better equipped than the opposition then you can expect them moving fairly fast from one encounter to the next, otherwise hey will have to adopt more 'realistic' modern practises, with injured team members dropping out for hospital visits whilst the rest continue.

If they don't have an equipment advantage, and don't have access to a hospital system ... then they can expect to need to pause for very long periods of time between combat encounters, if they survive at all.

 

[Whipsnade]

How deadly is T20? It's too deadly and not deadly enough.

It's too deadly for players and GMs weaned on d20. They'll bring d20 habits with them that will prove campaign wrecking in T20. We had a recent thread involoving a group new to T20 playing a fine QLI product called The Forgotten War. Both the players and the GM found it hard to shake their d20 habits and the party was wiped out by pirates before the campaign was half over.

It's not deadly enough when compared to real Traveller. Even with the clumsy 'lifeblood' mechanism bolted on, T20 still carries too much baggage from its d20 sire. Thanks to the use of levels and feats, player-characters are still extraordinary when compared to NPCs. In real Traveller, PCs have no difference from NPCs and players are ordinary people in extraordinary situations.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

Thanks to the use of levels and feats, player-characters are still extraordinary when compared to NPCs. In real Traveller, PCs have no difference from NPCs and players are ordinary people in extraordinary situations.

I think that depends on the referee. NPCs can and should be created with the same rules as PCs, which means that they have access to the same levels and feats as the PCs. In my game, NPCs are not all first level newbies. So, taking on the crack Imperial Marine assault squad should be a blood bath on both sides assuming equal equipment (which, of course, shouldn't be the case unless the assault squad is caught on leave).

Ron

 

[Whipsnade]

Ron,

Check out the NPCs in various QLI products and tell me how they compare to a typical T20 player-character.

T20 is deadlier than d20 and not as deadly as real Traveller.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[c_osborne]

As the aforementioned GM (from the pirate slaughter), and a newbie to T20, I can tell you a few key points.

The most important thing is to avoid fights where you don't have a distinct advantage. You need to use your head more than your weapons.

And starship combat is never a good idea for non-military ships. Most of our deaths have been due to fluke rolls on the starship damage table. Again, avoidance is key.

Armor is the second most important thing. It makes all the difference in the world when you get hit.

Medical drug, personal medkits, autodocs, and hospitals can speed healing considerably. Those weeks generally boil down to a few days.

Overall, I concur that T20 is WAY deadlier than D&D, but definitely still easier than Classic Traveller.

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
Hehe ... first point, don't get hurt without easy access to a hospital.

...and the money to pay for it. (Is there any health insurance that´s willing to insure player characters?)

Second point ... don't start a fight unless you're willing to spend at least days, if not weeks recuperating from the effects.

Do unto them before they can do unto you, to paraphrase the bible.

Third point ... do not mess with local cops when the law level prohibits nasty weapons. They will splat you like a bug.

And when the law level doesn´t prohibit nasty weapon, chances are the cops have them, too, and know how to use them.

Fourth point ... luck plays a larger part in survival than great skills levels or natural abilities.

So true... but, although it´s been said that luck gets you further than skill, it´s far better to have both.

Fifth point ... weapon and armor choice is the largest part of success in combat. The better equipped you are the (much) more likely your side wins. OTOH see the fourth point for the only problem with this thinking (natural 20s happen for punks with .22 pistols too you know).

Plus you´ll want to very close attention to terrain features such as cover.

 

[archhealer]

My players learned the hard way that T20 is much deadlier than D20/DND. They've developed a few startegies to deal with it, as have I as a ref.

Method 1: After a fight, they frequently enter jump-space to avoid legal entanglements, escape pursuit, get their priority cargo to the next system, or what-have-you. That week is (usually) pretty uneventful, requiring at most some idle tinkering with their equipment to keep it well maintained. With a decent medical technician or an autodoc on board, this week in jumpspace can be a real life-saver for a PC party.

Method 2: When combat is needed, they try very hard to have the element of surprise, and end the combat as quickly and completely as possible. If things start to look like a drawn out affair or a fair fight, they usually retreat and try again another time from another angle.

Method 3: They try to avoid combat involving deadly weapons, but eagerly jump into a brawl with bare-knuckles or shock weapons. It lets them get their dice-rolling, hack&slashing juices flowing, but generally won't cost them their character.

As for myself, I use a couple of tricks to keep things even between them and the PCs:

Method 1: NPCs are no particular level. I don't bother going through the entire creation process with them, I just tag them with a name, give them an attack bonus and skills appropriate to who they are, and let them go. I guage it loosely on what sort of person they are (A 14 year career marine will probably be much more deadly in combat than a 20 year old rogue... in most situations), and I don't scale them to the PC party's strength. With the T20 character background system, I find two things to be true: My players HATE losing characters because so much time goes into making them, and the parties usually have a wide disparity in level and combat effectiveness.

For these reasons, the NPCs being equally varied does several things for me as a ref: The players rarely assume that an NPC is a good match for them (They can't be sure till they try, really) and the frequently try to find non-violent ways to get through problems. This leads to more roleplaying, some really serious brain-busters occasionally being thrown their way, and a good all-around different RP experience.

I've never played classic Traveler, but I adore T20 for it's hyper-deadly (As compared to D&D, even AD&D) nature. Reminds of the bad old days of the I.C.E. system.

 

[mike wightman]

To give some numerical data about the two systems.

The average CT character has 21 points in physical stats (that's equivalent to total hit points ). The average pistol will cause 11 points of damage.
After two hits,, an unlucky character is dead.

An average T20 character will have a lifeblood of 11. An average pistol causes 6 points of damage.
After two hits an average character is bleeding to death.

The T20 character can go to -9 lifeblood before dying at -10.

Thus the T20 character has an advantage.

Then you have to add on the effects that feats have...
[edit]added last two sentences[/edit]

 

[Whipsnade]

Sigg,

Comparing each game's version of 'hit points'; physical stats in CT and lifeblood in T20 is fine, but don't forget levels and feats.

Levels and the feats that automatically come with them mean that upper level T20 characters can literally dodge pistol shots, something that could never happen in any other version of Traveller.

This is not to say that T20 is 'bad', it is not. In fact it's pretty damn good. It is to say however that T20 is 'different'.

Traveller and d20's predecessor D&D were very different RPG systems from the very beginning. T20 cannot help but resemble it's RPG system lineage more than it does the RPG setting it's trying to emulate.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

The deadliness of Traveller or T20 can be compared to the deadliness of Cyberpunk 2020 by R Talsorian Games. It is not patterned closely after D&D style combat. Firefights demand things like good equipment, use of cover, and smart small unit tactics. The typical D&D hack & slay approach will not work and usually guarantees the death of PCs in what I've seen.

I wonder if it wouldn't behoove one of the old-timers to write up a TML style newbie essay on surviving Traveller/T20 combat. Any takers?

 

[thewh0]

Thanks for the all the great advice.

I guess my only other question is whether I can install an autodoc on my air/raft.

 

[Ptah]

This sounds like a call for an auto-ambulance. Dang, the Scouts or Marines got to have one of those.

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Ptah:
This sounds like a call for an auto-ambulance. Dang, the Scouts or Marines got to have one of those.

The short story that the T20 rulebook starts with mentions a "grav ambulance", which is supposedly operated either by the Marines or by starport authorities.

I guess that it is either an air/raft or G-Carrier equipped with an auto-doc and staffed with medical personnel.

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

Check out the NPCs in various QLI products and tell me how they compare to a typical T20 player-character.

A good number of the ones in the back of the T20 book compare comprably to the typical character in my PBEM (at least when they started out).

You can make the same argument about CT characters if you're comparing typical CT characters with 4-6 terms vs. NPCs with 1-3 terms. PCs with 4-6 terms will more likely have weapon skills which allow them to hit more often than NPCs with only 1-3 terms. You have to use appropriate and equivalent rules for creating the NPCs and PCs.

A 6th level marine is a 6th level marine, PC or NPC, assuming that appropriate feats are chosen. There aren't special rules for PCs that aren't available for NPCs. If the 10th level characters are only running into 1st level NPCs, that's the responsibility of the Referee, not the game system.

That's not to say that T20 is less or more deadly because of the other mechanics, just that levels and feats alone don't make T20 less deadly if the GM is using the same rules to create appropriate and equivalent PCs and NPCs.

Ron

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Ron Vutpakdi:
You can make the same argument about CT characters if you're comparing typical CT characters with 4-6 terms vs. NPCs with 1-3 terms. PCs with 4-6 terms will more likely have weapon skills which allow them to hit more often than NPCs with only 1-3 terms.

Ron,

Weapon skills are on thing. Feats that allow higher level PCs to dodge bullets are seomthing else entirely.

As character terms in real Traveller increase, skill levels increase and - do to aging - hit points go down. You trade hit points for skills in real Traveller.

As character levels in T20 increase, skill levels increase, the number of feats increase, and lifeblood increases. There is no equivalent of the skill vs aging trade-off seen in real Traveller.

You have to use appropriate and equivalent rules for creating the NPCs and PCs.

Yes you should, but how many GMs who cut their teeth on D&D dungeon crawls will? The various published adventures don't do so either. In The Forgotten War, the players Imperial Marine passengers are level 9 while the Vargr pirates are level 6. Some play balance there.

If the 10th level characters are only running into 1st level NPCs, that's the responsibility of the Referee, not the game system.

And if the game's published adventures only showcases the same mismatches?

That's not to say that T20 is less or more deadly because of the other mechanics, just that levels and feats alone don't make T20 less deadly if the GM is using the same rules to create appropriate and equivalent PCs and NPCs.

When either PCs or NPCs can dodge bullets due to a game mechanism developed for fantasy role-playing feats, than that game is less deadly.

T20 is a stop gap, a less than perfect emulation of the setting it presents. It's primary use is to allow those people too lazy or busy to learn any RPG rules other than d20 to play in a setting somewhat different than the heroic-cinematic-fantasy setting d20 and its ancestors were designed to handle.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[TheBrain]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

Weapon skills are on thing. Feats that allow higher level PCs to dodge bullets are seomthing else entirely.

What feats are these? The almighty dodge feat with its whopping +1 to AC vs one opponent?

As character levels in T20 increase, skill levels increase, the number of feats increase, and lifeblood increases. There is no equivalent of the skill vs aging trade-off seen in real Traveller.

Lifeblood is the CON stat it can only go up through the toughness feat by a whole +1 or by boosting the CON stat itself once every 4 levels by a whole +1 again. And there are stat penalties for aging that hit the three physical stats.

T20 is a stop gap, a less than perfect emulation of the setting it presents. It's primary use is to allow those people too lazy or busy to learn any RPG rules other than d20

Ahh come on tell us how you really feel about D20 players.

<disengaging sarcasm drive>

 

[mike wightman]

You can redress the skills vs age balance in T20 by using the CT ageing rules instead of the T20 ones.
You can also give T20 a much more CT feel by using a 2d10 or a 3d3 roll in place of the d20, IMHO

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by TheBrain:
What feats are these? The almighty dodge feat with its whopping +1 to AC vs one opponent?

It's still +1 more than someone without the 'feat' would have.

Lifeblood is the CON stat it can only go up through the toughness feat by a whole +1 or by boosting the CON stat itself once every 4 levels by a whole +1 again.

Again, bonuses those without the 'levels' and 'feat' will not have.

Ahh come on tell us how you really feel about D20 players.

I did. I said T20 was a stop gap. It allows d20 players who are interested in a different RPG setting and who also either too lazy or too busy to learn new rules explore a new RPG setting.

Are the T20 rules perfect for the setting in question? No, but they're better than nothing and without them many players would never try Traveller.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Chaos]

So you´re telling us that a +1 bonus to AC (which can be easily countered by the +1 bonus to attack granted by Weapon Focus) makes T20 "much less deadly" than CT?

Oh, and of course the extra Lifeblood that "those without the level and feats will not have". Like an extra point of Lifeblood or two will make such a big difference...

Bill, I´m sick and tired of this. All we ever hear from you is "T20 sucks" and "I know it all so much better than you losers", in a thousand different variations. So you don´t like T20. Fine, then don´t play it - and let those of us who do enjoy it have our fun without your constant whining.

BTW, I am still waiting for the "many glaring inconsistencies" in the Honor Harrington novels you said you´d show us. Delivering on promises, it seems, is not one of your strong points.