How deadly is T20?

[MrMorden]

T20 is a stop gap, a less than perfect emulation of the setting it presents. It's primary use is to allow those people too lazy or busy to learn any RPG rules other than d20 to play in a setting somewhat different than the heroic-cinematic-fantasy setting d20 and its ancestors were designed to handle.[/QB]

Well, I have played Traveller since 1979, and I think that T20 is quite a good rendition of the game. It's not perfect by an means, and I have my own issues with the d20 system, but it retains the essential feel of Traveller, which to me is much more important than anything else.

Any RPG should be about the story, not about what dice you roll to execute a task. In the end, the deadliness of ANY game system rests firmly in the hands of the Referee, he can make things as hard or as easy as suits him (and hopefully he takes into account what suits his players, as well).

CT is very deadly, no doubt, and T20 is more deadly by far than 3.5 D&D. But personally, I'm glad that T20 is a little more relaxed. As exciting as an RPG is with really deadly combat rules, in the end it slows things down. Players like action, and want to be able to have harrowing fights without having to lay around for weeks afterwards.

I think T20 stikes a good balance. Any punk with a shotgun is still a real threat, but things aren't so desperate that PCs run from every fight and feel like cowards.

And yes, some of my players would have not tried Traveller (which they now love, btw) if it were not for T20. But standardization is not necessarily a bad thing. They were able to pick up the game in one session, since it was 80% familiar to them. They know how tactical movement works, they understand how to resolve hits and damage (after a little lifeblood training).

And how con you really call players like that "lazy?" After all, these are guys in their thirties, with wives, kids, and lots of other things they can and should be doing besides gaming. It only makes sense they should want to spend their limited time gaming instead of learning yet another rules system.

 

[Merxiless]

If there were no Traveller T20, how many "Hack and Slash" gamers with the "I Wade In" mentality would have tried Classic-, Mega-, or T4?

Pretty much, none.

Perhaps not so much because those are dead games (which I disagree with, in any case), but because Sci Fi has a different feel from D&D.

Is that a good or a bad thing, that people out there would not go to the trouble to get old Traveller, or the reprints?

Depends on point of view.

Earlier in the thread it was stated more or less the AD&D mentality that some T20 players might carry to a T20 session, Not Having Played Classic, or some other Non d20 version, leads to parties getting slaughtered, because they are of the mindset that the whole reason for gaming is to kill stuff, get the treasure.

Not that all d20 players are like this, but those players do exist. And the exist in Traveller, but don't live very long, usually.

If I had a T20 group, focussed on roleplaying, and all they knew was T20, or 3rd ed d20, I'd consider learning the T20 rules myself, as a referee. I've owned a copy of them for over 6 months.

But seeing what I have of d20, and found it wanting, I'm more than happy to prefer Classic Traveller, since it gives you, as stated, very low hit points, none of this AD&D carryover -9 buffer points, forces participants in combat to avoid it or win it quickly, or die trying.

If you are outnumbered and flee, some might call it cowardice, others might call it, "I'm outnumbered, and will pick and choose my battles."

If the combat is to the death, there are many dead heroes who didn't run.

And the traveller Character can definitely choose to stand and deliver, and might live or die doing it.

If engaging in a gunfight lands you in the morgue or the ICU of the hospital, perhaps don't engage in one, rather than playing a softer rules variant, to accomodate some kind of roleplaying blood frenzy vs. Space Orcs.

Anyone in my local area knows I love Traveller, even the less than popular versions. Yet my T20 sits on the shelf, unopened, and unplayed...

Because when I saw what 3rd ed D&D did to advance the cause of comic book caricatures and powergaming, it made me nauseous.

Lots of people prefer d20, vs. older game systems. I am not among that lot.

Is T20 more of the same? I don't need to find out, since I have more than enough fun with other versions of Traveller.

 

[Merxiless]

After all, these are guys in their thirties, with wives, kids, and lots of other things they can and should be doing besides gaming. It only makes sense they should want to spend their limited time gaming instead of learning yet another rules system.

Yeah, like learning that new-fangled T20, when older versions of Traveller will serve just as well.

So it's a case of if you come from 3rd ed, play T20, and Have At It, to experience the Traveller Flavor, modified.

If you come from older Traveller, T20 might be good for you, if all of your players come from 3rd ed.

But since I already have and enjoy the older versions, I am not diving into T20, anytime soon.

 

[archhealer]

Ok, so being well branched from the original topic here, but still....

If not for T20, I would never have tried Traveller. I'm very busy, and it took me years to get around to learning D20, so I'm not about to learn a whole 'nother system just to try a new game.

Now, I love Traveller.

As for the "real" traveller, I'd make this Arguement:

T20 is not "real" traveller.
CT is not "Real" traveller.
Gurps Traveller, Megatraveller, T4, are not "Real" traveller.

Traveller isn't a game system. It's a setting, a mood, an atmosphere, a genre. The rules are just an interface. Pick the set that works for you, and ejoy the game!

 

[Merxiless]

Archhealer, I totally agree with you.

The only REAL Traveller is what Marc Miller has in his mind.

Perhaps with input from all those in the Glory Days of GDW.

Well put.

 

[Merxiless]

With a nod to the authors of T20 also, of course.

 

[loconius]

Most Gm's don't bother with the extensive time it takes to create your ole average Naval Marine, the time that the player has taken to make “his” ole average Naval Marine

I’ve noticed that stamina serves only to shorten fights, since damage is subtracted from it before armor is applied [which I have no idea how you do that since your supposed to roll the reduce number of dice first

]. I went a head and took it a step further in simplification, I removed stamina all together. My NPCs only have Life blood, and if a shot does a significant amount of damage before reduction [I think I used their con score], then it just knocked them out, [no save for NPCs, Fort (15) for players].

I would agree with some that say 20th level characters are just insane in a traveler game [where you play average people in extraordinary situations], I made levels top at 10 instead of 20, 11 plus was too cinematic for my needs.

Couple that with “combat skills” instead of BAB, “Ability checks” eliminating saving throws [getting better at Computer engineering didn’t increase my fortitude to resist getting drugged!], and no stamina… and you have a traveler game that just happens to use a twenty sided die…

and classes… feats

 

[archhealer]

Originally posted by loconius:

I’ve noticed that stamina serves only to shorten fights, since damage is subtracted from it before armor is applied [which I have no idea how you do that since your supposed to roll the reduce number of dice first

]. I went a head and took it a step further in simplification, I removed stamina all together. My NPCs only have Life blood, and if a shot does a significant amount of damage before reduction [I think I used their con score], then it just knocked them out, [no save for NPCs, Fort (15) for players].

Removing the Stamina is easy... remember, you don't roll fewer dice. You remove them AFTER the roll, because you need to remove them based on the value of each die.

So you add up the TOTAL damage, then remove the dice according to AR, and add what's left. The first total comes off of stamina, the second from lifeblood. I still adore this system, characters get knocked out all the damn time and that makes many situations a lot of fun.

 

[loconius]

actually i'm a little fuzy on the armor in T20, how do you select which dice are subtracted specifically? for the time being i couldn't figure it out so i just used it as a straight DR [made combat exceptionally deadly against powerful weapons... course no one should survive a Fusion blast to the face ]

C Love

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by loconius:
I’ve noticed that stamina serves only to shorten fights, since damage is subtracted from it before armor is applied [which I have no idea how you do that since your supposed to roll the reduce number of dice first

].

You roll damage dice, add any damage bonuses, and subtract this from Stamina.
The AR then reduces the damage dice, from lowest rolled to highest rolled until only one damage die (plus damage bonus) remains. Any AR left then subtracts from this last remaining die (plus damage bonus).

 

[mike wightman]

An example should help.

Gort fires a 4 round burst from his ACR at Rommie, opting to do an extra 2 dice of damage.

He hits and rolls 3d12+2 for damage, getting a 7, an 8, and an 11, for a total Stamina damage of 28.

Rommie is wearing her TL14 combat armour, AR 8.

This removes the 7 die (AR 7 remaining), then the 8 die (AR 6 remaining) - remember the damage dice are removed lowest roll to highest roll.

The 11 die and the damage bonus of +2 are then reduced by the remaining AR to 7 points of lifeblood damage (11+2-6).

HTH.

 

[loconius]

hmmm, thanks that really clears things up a bit...

so you think keeping stamina is good huh.. suppose it isn't too much to keep track of

c love

 

[archhealer]

Yeah, I like stamina. I've been shot wearing a bullet proof vest (I wish it were something like "I was in the millitary" or "I'm a cop" but it's more like "I grew up in a redneck family in a rural town") and while it does prevent the bullet from going through you, it still hurts like hell and knocks you around abit. Being shot a few times like that would certainly put me down after a few rounds...

Also, running, ducking, dodging, and being in high-stress situations is exhausting.

 

[mike wightman]

One thing I don't agree with is that once stamina hits 0, further stamina damage is applied to lifeblood.
I think it should be applied as fatigue levels to penalise actions and fortitude saves to remain active.

 

[loconius]

I would just work it like nonlethal damage in other games persoanlly, stamina is a rating, and you accumulate stamina damage [like nonlethal] and when it excedes, you are unconsious... the more you take, the longer you are unconscious!!

"get yourself knocked into a coma it did?!"

c love

 

[Lochlaber]

Let's see, I have a AR of 4, get hit by a burst doing extra damage of 1dx fpr a total of 3dx. According to the way we understand it is that you roll the die, add the damage bonuses, then start subtracting the number of dice vs AR. With only 3 dice, the two lowest are removed entirely, with the final dice being reduced by the difference in dice vs AR, at this point 2 points off the total of the third, highest dice. If this reduces the damage to less than 1, you still take 1 point of damage.

\Some of the explanations, seem to be saying you take both stamina damage and life blood damage from the hit, essentially counting dice twice. Others seem to take all combat damage immediately from lifeblood which is not how I understand it. There are specific times and rules for direct life blood damage but most of them say you start with stamina damage first. Thus, a single hit by say a gauss rifle (d12), should not kill anybody outright.

 

[mike wightman]

All rolled damage is subtracted from Stamina before armour damage reduction kicks in.

Armour prevents lifeblood damage only.

If you aren't wearing armour then you also take the same amount of damage to your lifeblood - and note that a critical hit ignores armour anyway

One last thing, there is no minimum of 1 point of damage. If damage reduction deduces the damage to 0 or less you take no damage.

e.g. unlucky Pete is walking down the exit ramp of his ship, dressed only in his shorts and t-shirt. A stray burst from an smg (a minor dockside dispute is taking place a couple of berths away) hits him.
Unfortunately for Pete that four round burst inflicts 3d10 damage. 4, 9, and 3 are rolled on the damage dice.
Pete subtracts 16 from his Stamina (not a problem, he has a Stamina total of 32), but the 16 points are also applied to his lifeblood. Pete only has 13 points of lifeblood, so he's now at -3 and bleeding to death.

 

[mike wightman]

Oh, and a gauss rifle does 2d12 so can kill outright

 

[archhealer]

Actually, lots of weapons can kill outright. Especially to unarmored targets. I have a character in one of my campaigns who only has 7 lifeblood. If unarmored, he could be taken down by a knife, if the person wielding it was strong.

 

[Liam Devlin]

The Lethality of T20 I feel gives the game a more realistic edge to its combat. Players be warned, this isn't a FRPG!

*Prompt player T/medical action can save lives of other characters.

*Wearing armor darn sure helps reduce damage.

*Better use of terrain & tactics (roleplaying here not dice crunching) can save your Pc's a lot of grief [to balance this, the GM has the bad guys use terrain & tactics ]

*Speedy medical evacuation plan--if you're going to a gunfight, know th fastest route to the doctor before hand! (or back to your ship's med bay).

*Non lethal damage happens too. You can be billy-bad@ss in combat armor trip, fall down stairs and take damage, sprain an ankle, break an arm, etc.

*I personally like T20 combat.
Nice discussion guys. Thanks.