How Do We Improve T5?

[ovka]

I don't want to start another "T5 Isn't Playable" thread. I really want to like T5. I see things that I feel T5 and its rulebook can do better. That's what I want this thread to be about.

The main rulebook shouldn't be all things to all people. Attempting to build something that makes everybody happy winds up making nobody happy. I really like that T5 has options to expand tech levels to singularity, FTL options beyond jump drives, characteristic options that accommodate a wide variety of sophonts, rules for genetics and clones, rules for building guns, starships, vehicles, and robots, rules for creating planets, subsectors, sectors, and galaxies, and lots of other things.

The list could go on. Unfortunately, the more complexity you add up front, the more barriers to entry you add. That was the hallmark of CT. The LBBs simplified things and added complexity later.

Recently, we've had a couple of deaths in the Traveller family. That points to one of the problems that we as a Traveller community have -- we as a group are aging. We need to attract new blood in order for the game to survive. We need to remove as many barriers to entry as possible.

So what does the main rulebook (or books) need?

1. Fast start rules - These would include an explanation of the task system, several sample human characters, only enough skill and equipment information necessary to understand the characters, a sample adventure set in the OTU Imperium (characters are old friends hired to travel to the next planet J1 away and deliver a package, short description of two starports, short description of starship passage, something to make the delivery exciting, a few NPCs, enough information for a new GM to ask for some task rolls, no combat). This book or book section should ONLY include enough information to play.

2. Simple rules - How to create the characters and NPCs from the fast start rules, more skills and equipment to support character generation for those characters, personal combat, short description of a couple of starships (e.g. scout & free trader), UWPs for an OTU subsector (e.g. Glisten, SPIN-O), and an adventure that allows the characters to travel to several different worlds.

3. Broader rules - More careers, a few non-human sophonts, more skills, more equipment, more ships, ACS combat, UWPs for a neighboring subsector (e.g. District 268, SPIN-N), and an adventure that allows the characters to travel to beyond the Imperium.

4. Advanced rules - All careers, all major races, several minor races, all skills, large equipment list, lots of ships, UWPs for an entire sector (e.g. SPIN) and an adventure that spans several subsectors.

5. Very Advanced rules - How to build guns, armor, starships, vehicles, clones, sophonts, things, and an adventure that spans several sectors.

The idea is that you start simple so that new Traveller players, Traveller players who have fallen away from the fold, and Traveller players new to T5 can participate. Then you can add layers and levels of complexity as people gain a greater understanding.

Thoughts?

Baron Ovka

 

[Supplement Four]

My opinion is that T5 is a work in progress. It's not a finished game. It's about 75% finished. There are a TON OF GREAT IDEAS in the game, but the rules haven't been examined hard enough. There's too many problems with the game, as-is, and, I suspect, there are more problems to be discovered.

The other problem I see with T5 is that it is too crunchy. It's too rules-heavy. It's too dice-heavy. Even with the combat re-write, of which I contributed, turned out being an extremely dice-heavy exercise that, I suspect, nobody will play as written.

How do we fix it?

It's a hell of a job. I think it needs to be taken, chapter by chapter, torn down to its roots, examined, with all problems fixed.

The problem with doing that is, it will take YEARS. It's already taken years for the re-writes that have been completed (and, like I said, I'm not keen on the re-write).

Or, I should say, that T5 needs a lot of man-hours and re-writing to complete that last 25% of the game that needs to be completed--the polish. The play test. The check that all problems are fixed, and the game runs smoothly.




Here's how I would tackle the problem: I'd work on a chapter at a time, and then release the re-written chapters as they were completed.

A better system needs to be used, too, for re-writing the chapters. In my opinion, the way the Combat Chapter was rewritten did not produce the results that everybody is hoping to get.

The problem is that FFE is basically Marc and a few volunteers. There should be a dedicated, paid, team of people directed at working on T5. I don't think the volunteer angle works well.

In sum: I'd work on the game, chapter by chapter, with a focus on (1) cleaning up any problems, (2) and making sure the game runs smoothly (including removing some of the crunch), with an eye towards wide-ranging adoption and playability.



Until then, I think T5 is a Ref's suggestion box. It's as if the game is saying, "I suggest you do something like this. Not necessarily exactly like this, but something like this, in your game. These aren't hard, written in stone rules. They're suggestions--fix the issues that you see."

 

[aramis]

The idea is that you start simple so that new Traveller players, Traveller players who have fallen away from the fold, and Traveller players new to T5 can participate. Then you can add layers and levels of complexity as people gain a greater understanding.

Thoughts?

Baron Ovka

A lot depends on what one sees as "Traveller" - there are a large part of the fans for whom Traveller is the OTU and ONLY the OTU. I used to be one.

For others, well, the poll of what's being played shows the score...
CT 47, MGT 51, MT 11, GT 7, TNE 7, T5 2, Hybrid 38... out of 182 responses...

The CT crowd seems split between OTU archaeology (Guilty, mea culpa) and non-OTU "ignore all those references" types.
The MGT crowd seems to be moving more and more away from the OTU as a setting.

So, the real issue with T5 is "what does it bring to the table?"
- It's back to a toolset mentality of rules
- it also encodes in rules some of Marc's long held setting vision.

This is a problematic mix.
What I've seen happen industry wide is that most players now want prepackaged settings. A small, very vocal, sometimes very obnoxious, few want toolkits... but toolkits don't do well past the kickstarter.

I've watched as a game that started out as being focused upon Ivanhoe has become a generic game built around the 17th and 18th centuries... and would be fan participation has dropped on the google group for it. (My own interest has flagged as well. I don't need another generic game.)

Likewise, I see the same about 50 people keep posting port after port after port of one setting or another to their favorite game systems. (Mea Culpa - I used to do this too.) And I'm not talking about migrating stuff into generic systems.

Taking a look at D&D 5e... the polls show an overwhelming almost 70% of respondents play in the Forgotten Realms. 50% of those would rather not play in the FR if there was an OFFICIAL option - IE, a setting book approved by WOTC - for one of the other classic settings. And about 15% use homebrewed worlds with stock rules. Until 5E, I'd NEVER used the Realms before. Why now? I don't have the option if I'm doing organized play. And, since I run a D&D Adventurer's League game, I don't have a choice.

As for T5 - it's firmly a toolkit. But, in looking at the market succeeding games, not a one really is written as a toolkit.

• FFG's Star Wars - setting is well known, rules support it, and fluff text enough that even non-gamers can find the books readable.
• FFG's 40K RPGs - setting is less well known, so there's more fluff, but the rules again match the fluff well, and there is a LOT of material. Almost no optional rules - hourserules abound on the net, but no toolkit mentality in the rules.
• FATE - Fate Core is a toolkit - and it's about the best selling indy game out there at the moment. But only a proverbial handful of people are brewing settings for it - it's biggest selling point? There are half a dozen (and climbing) worldbooks for it so that it can be grab-n-go.
• GURPS - SJG has mentioned that GURPS is a break even proposition for them. They make back their investment, but Munchkin keeps the lights on. Lots of setting books make this toolkit system reasonably popular. SJ keeps it going as a labor of love, according to Sean "Dr Kromm" Punch.
• D&D 5E. Or, should I call it what it is: The Forgotten Realms RPG. It's a solid engine, with a handful of options in the PHB. The DMG has a bunch of customization options, but NOT a true toolkit mentality. And all the support product is setting specific for the FR. The MM is fairly generic, but the SCAG, the EEPC, and all the adventures to date are all firmly tied to the Forgotten Realms' Sword Coast region.
• Green Ronin's Adventure Gaming Engine. The flagship was Dragon Age - the tabletop adapted from the setting of the videogames. Few options. Fantasy Age - a few more options a few minor differences, but essentially Dragon Age minus the setting. And Titansgrave - a setting and campaign by Wil Wheaton - drove sales like a furnace. What I've seen is a couple folks doing multiple conversions of other settings. One interesting one - Mystara (a D&D gameworld) had to add mechanics to capture the flavor. Not a trivial effort.
• MGT - officially a toolkit. The hot talk? away from here, I see mostly mention of two published ATU settings - Omer's Outrim Vale and Gypsy Knight's Clement Sector. The OTU takes a distant 3rd, and homebrew gets little mention.
• The One Ring - can't get much more tied to setting than this. At least it works. A slow release schedule, and high quality, with excellent setting fluff and matching rules.
• Dr Who - simple, consistent rules. Enough setting fluff for even this non-whovian to understand what's going on. (I'm told it gets it right, too. Not a fan of the show, not a fan of the RPG, but it's simple to read, simple to run, and has enough that the clueless aren't totally lost.)

I look, and see toolkits relegated to third tier or beyond. Burning Wheel. Cortex Plus Hacker's Guide. Hero System. Rolemaster/Spacemaster. T&T. S&S.

And even T&T now has a built in setting... Deluxe T&T, for the first time, includes setting materials. And it's the hottest selling edition of T&T this century.

I'll note that CT is resurging due to the OSR talking up its toolkit nature - but I see the same guys gushing over that as are gushing over AS&SoH, and the latest rebuilds of Original D&D-like retroclones. (And it's interesting - none of them actually seem to want the unexpanded game - they all use the d20 combat mechanic, they almost all use 1 HD per level, and full polyhedrals.)

So, again, what does T5 bring?
A huge toolkit. And only implied setting by rules. (But one so baked in, that getting rid of it is hard work...)

You make many good points - but the breakout would need to be something that can be read once, then run. I'm a grognard, but my eyes glaze over at large swathes of T5.

Yes, it's playable as written. But running it without a premade setting is more work than I'm willing to put in these days. And, unlike, say, T20, I can't use prexisting ship designs easily.

And, unlike the heyday of D&D (BX, BECMI) & AD&D, the conversion between the other current edition and T5 is non-trivial.

For comparison -

• FFG 40K lines - all characters can be used as is in the other games, provided one notes the power disparity... the total XP, not the level, is the "are they equally potent" point.
• FFG Star Wars - 100% intercompatible
• Fantasy Age vs Dragon Age - trivial changes (armor, mostly), provided one has a copy of the class page.
• GURPS - since everything in official GURPS stuff bends setting to fit to GURPS mechanics, partially excepting the GT/GTIW and Vampire/Mage/Werewolf ports, cross-setting compatibility is almost perfect.
• D&D - we have less than 6 total pages on anything other than FR in 5E... the only concession to genericness is High Elf rather than Gold Elf or Silver Elf, and such.
• Cortex Plus - no compatibility between different games. Firefly, Leverage, Smallville, MHR - each is a separate game, with different meanings, sharing the same core resolution mechanic. I only see one in stores- Firefly. But it's made it into some surprisingly small stores.
• Palladium - Every game is a separate setting, every game uses the same core engine, customized classes, and all the post 1990 revisions are revised for RIFTS compatibility. 100% interoperability.

That MGT and T5 are not Interoperable is a problem. MGT is not "T5 Lite" and T5 is not "MGT Advanced". Ships, characters, even equipment all require reworking to use across the boundary. So Omer and Gypsy's ATU's are not ready sources for instant setting (yet).

Craig's and Greg's contributions, so far, aren't settings, either.

The single most important thing for potential adoption, IMO, is an "instant setting" - a single book, with what people need to get going in that setting. (and, to avoid dying due to competition with MGT, I think that needs to be M1900).
Following that, a less cryptic treatment of Character Gen, and worked examples in World and Ship creation. Multiple worked examples in each.
Gunmaker is fine for what it is, but a standard list (MT's is a good balance comparison) of preworked (and valid) designs would make for a much more useable T5 lite. Same for Vehicles.

A "T5 Starter Edition" should, IMO, be

• Player's book:
  • Intro to standard setting.
  • Task System
  • Character gen, with worked examples, and no "Char1" type references - use only the default attributes, and use those attributes in the tables.
  • Combat rules.
  • Stock weapons and gear lists.
• GM's book:
  • More on standard setting.
  • Discussion of the Tropes of the system vs those of the setting
  • System gen, ship building (stripped of anything not in the standard setting, but not missing any standard steps. So, only those drives and weapons covered.)
  • Interpersonals
  • Encounters
  • Animals
  • Trade
  • Sample Sector, with a detailed out subsector - either F, G, J or K

Then, have the full version be the monster book.

 

[pendragonman]

So, we need to get Marc to allow a group to configure a basic, entry-level box set with a version of CT books 0-3 and a small setting book (perhaps a pocket empire version of the OTU or a widening of the Islands).

The upside of this kind of thing is that there are easily follow on items for improving the market as Mongoose has shown with equipment books and the Clement Sector etc...

 

[Condottiere]

I've always believed that the most important aspect are the player's expectations, which is why if the setting is heavily derived or even just lifted from a well-known media property, such as Star Wars, everyone knows what to expect and what they want to get out of the experience.

The introductory adventure/setting booklet is invaluable, though nowadays you may want to complement that with a well made video to be posted on Youtube. And probably a Facebook homepage, to answer queries and give interested parties some place to investigate this.

The rules set are only as important as how they permit players to achieve their goals ingame, while creating results that are plausible, to everyone concerned around that table.

 

[aramis]

So, we need to get Marc to allow a group to configure a basic, entry-level box set with a version of CT books 0-3 and a small setting book (perhaps a pocket empire version of the OTU or a widening of the Islands).

The upside of this kind of thing is that there are easily follow on items for improving the market as Mongoose has shown with equipment books and the Clement Sector etc...

Essentially, yes. But it also needs to NOT be different mechanics from the main corebook - just not including all the options.

And it needs to have a default and explicit setting... with fluff that matches the rules. Why? Because, without it, T5 is too much work even for many extant fans, let alone for someone without experience extracting a setting from the rules, or modifying rules to fit a preconceived setting.

 

[robject]

[*]FATE - Fate Core is a toolkit - and it's about the best selling indy game out there at the moment. But only a proverbial handful of people are brewing settings for it - it's biggest selling point? There are half a dozen (and climbing) worldbooks for it so that it can be grab-n-go.

... the breakout would need to be something that can be read once, then run.

...Craig's and Greg's contributions, so far, aren't settings, either.

The single most important thing for potential adoption, IMO, is an "instant setting" - a single book, with what people need to get going in that setting. (and, to avoid dying due to competition with MGT, I think that needs to be M1900).

[suggestions including Player's Book-like contents saved]

I think Wil's got the right analysis and direction.

The "grab and go" metaphor hits me particularly.

 

[cym0k]

My immediate thoughts? Nail the T5 BBB. Get it consistent, get it out the door. Then have a release of smaller "official" setting books/PDFs. OTU with the T5 system, in this would be the ships, weapons, sophonts and all that. Other books could provide insight, examples and other "stuff" that dovetail with the BBB (and at a cut price). You'd still need the T5 BBB but the "settings would be good to go via later material.

Time and tide though. It all pushes deadlines further away.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

A decent set of fun workable rules for space combat would be a good start :rant:

 

[robject]

My immediate thoughts? Nail the T5 BBB.

This goes without saying, by the way. It also works alongside Wil's suggestion for "Starter Traveller5" as the Player's Guide paired with a Referee's Guide. The "monster rules" to which he refers is the BBB. And the PG and RG can't safely be built out until the BBB is ready.

As before, the current task is to get the errata whittled back.


Parallel Tasks

Working on any of these brings the Player's Guide closer to completion. These are potential, parallel tasks.

• A stock gun and armor list. There are drafts floating around, but none with a lot of review for relevance, reasonableness, and so on. And yes, the current "stock" weapons from CT will do here -- plus a Laser Pistol. Throw in a TL 16 item if you want.

• Whittle back the equipment list to what is really needed for a Player's Guide. A lot of the items in the BBB are not germane to players in any milieu.

• Worked chargen examples, aimed with players in mind. (Nothing shakes out a system more than using it and documenting the results).

And here's one item that would advance the Referee's Guide: I've posted two starship design walkthrus here on COTI: the Beowulf has less red ink. Anyone have suggestions about either of them? Can either be shortened safely? Are there missing parts that really ought to be there? (there are missing bits for the Gazelle that I think should be there).

 

[atpollard]

I would not underestimate the value of some T5 background material. Something to help define the character of the T5 universe.

IN MY OPINION, most of what people love and hate about Classic Traveller is the feel of the Golden Era of the Third Imperium. Most of what people love and hate about MegaTraveller is the feel of The Rebellion setting. Same with TNE and the dark future of the virus and vampire fleets, and the new flame of 1248 in T20. Everyone has preferences with rules ... and house rules to make the game play the way they want it to play (crunchy in all the right places).

What T5 has is a promise of a future Galaxiad (which I probably mis-spelled) and some hints in the mechanics, but I don't see a lot of electrons being spilled on the feel of Traveller in the T5 era (whatever that is).

Hats off to the brave few third party publishers who have dipped a toe into the T5 OTU. It is an area where T5 can be improved without waiting for all of the errata nuts and bolts to be resolved.

 

[mike wightman]

CT didn't have a consistent setting - the 'golden age' is a myth only viewable with hindsight and an awful lot of contradictory material scattered through numerous books and supplements. Where is life in the core sector of the Imperium detailed? How is life in the core sectors different to life in the frontier sectors?

(Aside - how can a 1000year old empire have a frontier that has been settled for 990 of those years and still claim it to be an underdeveloped frontier - doesn't make sense)

One of the reasons behind MT was to bring everything together, something that was nearly achieved but errata and a few tech paradigm changes means that it added to the inconsistency rather than clearing it all up.
One thing that was consistent about MT though was the background material, apart from the most important rule of modern warfare - know what your end game will be.

If interviews I have read and can no longer source are true then GDW came very close to retconning the Traveller setting with T2300 technology. I am not so sure that they ever intended T2300 to be an historical setting for CT (actually I am 100% sure of this) but they did consider rewriting the future history of the Imperial setting to use T2300 tropes.

(Note they eventually chose to drop Traveller from the title of 2300 and go over to the darkside with a bolted on cyberpunk effort.)

They instead decided to flatten the setting, change the rules, but maintain enough links to the past that they could maintain the Traveller brand name. New core game rules, almost new setting.

T5 has the chance to finally overwrite all of this by moving 700 years further into the future and using the Galaxy Quest defence - prior settings and versions are poorly understood historical records.

You even have a cast iron excuse for getting away with it - the Empress Wave finally arrives at Grandfather's pocket universe and his only defence is reality manipulation technology. A few hundred years of chaos followed by a new setting emerging from the ruins of the old.

 

[Supplement Four]

I like stock settings. I'm a fan of the OTU. But, I don't think T5 will ever be accepted by a wide margin of role players, even within the Traveller community, until the rules are cleaned.

And, that means that the rules makes sense. No problems (or, at least, a lot less problems), and the game runs smooth.

Players and Refs alike have to be able to "trust" the Core Rules. That they're well thought out and will serve the game well. That no glaring problem will raise its ugly head during a game. When that happens, players lose confidence in the rule set, and they start to question everything.

So, for me, the answer isn't a Players Handbook or a Setting Book or an Equipment Book or even an Adventure Scenario. What's got to happen is that the the rules must be cleaned up.

If you're going to build a house, you've got to have a firm foundation. Don't build the roof if the foundation has issues.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Perhaps noone has the "testicular fortitude" (as one of our incarcerated former governors said( to go Galaxiad and say goodbye to the past. I think it is incorrect that people will not buy Galaxiad because the T5 rules are not clean. Thats why many supplements these days are "systemless". Write it that way and fix the specifics of the number crunching for T5 later.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think it is incorrect that people will not buy Galaxiad because the T5 rules are not clean.

To reply to that: I'm sure the Galaxiad, if published, would sell to some. But, I also think it would sell A LOT MORE if the T5 rules were cleaned up and had wider adoption.

If the Galaxiad were released as a systemless supplement rather than a T5 supplement, then its discussion here is moot as we're talking about the health of T5.

 

[robject]

Time to rein this in and bring it back to the OP.

The main rulebook shouldn't be all things to all people.

...

The LBBs simplified things and added complexity later.

While both statements are true, you cannot equate the LBBs to any other version of Traveller. The LBBs started from nothing and created a loose system - best described as "OSR". To start like that again would be (at worst) riding a fad and (at best) a pale imitation of the LBBs. Which we already have.

In summary, before we produce a Player's Guide, Referee's Guide, or Reincarnated LBBs, we first need the reference work. That's the Core Rules. We can, however, produce adventures today.

This "main rulebook" of which you speak is something like a Referee's Manual - a proposal that hasn't been written yet. It's not even like the Player's Guide -- which is the only other product which has been promised from the Kickstarter. Starting from there, I can evaluate your suggestions.

1. Fast start rules [no chargen] - This book or book section should ONLY include enough information to play.

Tasks and personal combat in a supplemental document bundled with adventures would do it.

2. Simple rules

Player's Book.

3. Broader rules

Referee's Manual.

4. Advanced rules

Not needed. I figure you included it as a bridge. Really once a referee has gone beyond the manual it's time to get the Whole Enchilada.

5. Very Advanced rules

A misnomer. Comprehensive or Complete Rules. This is the BBB.

 

[atpollard]

Unless I misunderstood ... the current state of T5 is that the problems have been pretty well identified, a small group is working on hammering out solutions, Marc is revising it based on that input (but not rubber stamping changes), and the whole thing is happening slowly.

If I have understood correctly, where is the opportunity to 'do' anything about the T5 mechanics except wait? ... Or play on with what you have and whatever house rules you need to avoid bad guys laughing at your pistol and running in terror from your knife [an exaggeration of a historic known rules issue]?

Personally, I lean towards gearheadedness. I could play with the makers and do some damage. However, I doubt that is what T5 really needs to be improved.

**********

So let's talk about obstacles. The irony is that the single greatest obstacle to my participation in T5 is that there is just so darn much of it. 'How to eat an elephant' may be simple ('one bite at a time') but 700 pages is a discouraging amount of 'elephant' if you haven't even taken the first bite.

I have some ideas about experiencing worlds at different TLs ... about making TL 4 more than Victorian England on Earth with a starport. T5 might be a place to begin to explore some of these ideas without getting too bogged down in game mechanics, but still probing some of the edges of the game mechanics to see how they handle unusual things. I have some ideas about post TL 13 society and how it might 'feel' very different from 21st century Earth with flying cars.

These are the sort of things that one might contribute to T5 even before the rules are fully revised.

**********

If there are ways to contribute to 'Improving T5' that involve the game mechanics and do not require waiting patiently for the talented few working on it to finish, I'd love to hear about it. I just can't think of any.

 

[pendragonman]

There is a new wrinkle in the process. The living interface in the polishing of T5 has passed away. We need to identify the new intercessor with the Holy See (as it were).

 

[Quint]

I have to say that I'm with Aramis.

Despite my tendency to create very non-Canon versions of the OTU, I am a Traveller Fanboy. My collection of materials is extensive, but I ended up using the Cyberpunk 2020 engine for years because the game was more accessible for my players.

I can't imagine handing T5 to anyone I play with and asking them to play. I can barely read it and make sense of it - and then only because I've been playing Traveller since 1979/80ish and "work backwards" through some of the materials. It's a collection of minigames (the Makers) that I don't want to play, and the parts that might interest me (combat, chargen, psionics) are often incomprehensible to me.

(Which, it might be worth noting, I have a doctorate - it's not like I'm not used to reading things that are incomprehensible, I just want to be paid to these days)

I've been looking at MgT and was relatively excited by it - until the new edition was announced and I'm looking at having to buy everything for it. Again.

Because that's the problem - I have to be able to run a game that a player can either order off of Amazon or walk into the FLGS and purchase. Not track down some out of print version, not have to digest "rulebook plus my rulebook-sized collection of houserules".

Currently, I'm playing around with MgT and some stuff from both MT and T5. If there was a Makerless version of T5 that gave me Chargen and Combat I'd be really, really happy. It needs to have pretty art, good examples/explanation, and equipment lists/stats. That's what my players need and want to play - I'd buy a Ref Book, but honestly I'm expecting to handwave & houserule most of everything else because I hate Big Ship Universes, and I'm happier with MT than T5 when it comes to expanded world/system generation.

D.

D.

 

[atpollard]

There is a new wrinkle in the process. The living interface in the polishing of T5 has passed away. We need to identify the new intercessor with the Holy See (as it were).

Agreed, except the decision really falls to Marc who has lost both a talented administrator and, I suspect, a personal friend.