pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
Doesn't mean we don't need to know the identity of the new link, which is what I meant.
How Do We Improve T5?
- Thread starter ovka
- Start date
Doesn't mean we don't need to know the identity of the new link, which is what I meant.
Even if we had that name, what can be done for T5?
The rules are still being revised, so game mechanics can only be pursued so far.
So, what CAN be done?
Any thoughts or ideas?
AT, progress can be made on the Player's Guide. I've watched the discussions about it - what could go into it, what to omit from it, how it could be organized, etc. I consider these discussions valuable and even productive.
Moreover, sections can be drafted before the BBB is "done".
That's the direction we're headed for the Player's Guide.
Moreover, sections can be drafted before the BBB is "done".
That's the direction we're headed for the Player's Guide.
Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
Play Classic Traveller! :rofl:
A solution near and dear to MY heart, but not very constructive towards T5 or the OP.
As a 40yo gamer who came to Traveller late (2007ish), I don't consider myself a Traveller grognard. Maybe I am but I doubt it. The main problem with a T5 is it's a sci-fi heartbreaker for an older generation. It does EVERYTHING... although I can't get it do anything.
Traveller keeps getting more and more complicated... until new blood was engaged to bring it to a new generation. Like Mongoose. Folks can complain all they want (and we do) but Mongoose Traveller is hot with younger people!
Why... because it's an easy intro.
Quoted is so obvious it should never have to be stated:
Why are we even having this debate? Of course there need to be separate books. Of course there has to be a single base book. One that doesn't cost $80.00. Don't call them starter rules/sets, call it the Main Rule Book. Starter sets are for kids getting into Legos or turtles.
But before all of that... it needs to be playable. I got to character generation and haven't looked at since. Basically threw $80 into thin-air. But is that really the job of a bunch of people on a forum? It's cool that everyone is interested in working on it but shouldn't that be Marc Miller's job?
My unsolicited advice... if there is going to be a fan project then start over. IMO, something was lost in the creation of T5. I don't think retrofitting it will work. Start with the T5 task system (if people like it) and build from there.
Same with a setting... build something new. Take it out of the Imperium. Don't connect it at all. We have the 3rd Imperium. Multiple versions. They all copy each other. Do something new that showcases the "whatever" that T5 offers. Because if T5 is planned as an actual product and not a custom book for very special people, then it shouldn't try to compete with the existing OTU stuff out there.
No animals were hurt in writing this message. It's not my intention to pick fights or denigrate T5 or the work that was put into it. I realize folks here have a significant stake because they helped work on it. But maybe the time has come for those same folks to apply all that energy and imagination to something new.
MM created something amazing. Maybe it's someone else's turn. Someone here.
EDIT: Only disagreement with Aramis' list is that spaceships (basic) need to be in main book.
Traveller keeps getting more and more complicated... until new blood was engaged to bring it to a new generation. Like Mongoose. Folks can complain all they want (and we do) but Mongoose Traveller is hot with younger people!
Why... because it's an easy intro.
Quoted is so obvious it should never have to be stated:
Why are we even having this debate? Of course there need to be separate books. Of course there has to be a single base book. One that doesn't cost $80.00. Don't call them starter rules/sets, call it the Main Rule Book. Starter sets are for kids getting into Legos or turtles.
But before all of that... it needs to be playable. I got to character generation and haven't looked at since. Basically threw $80 into thin-air. But is that really the job of a bunch of people on a forum? It's cool that everyone is interested in working on it but shouldn't that be Marc Miller's job?
My unsolicited advice... if there is going to be a fan project then start over. IMO, something was lost in the creation of T5. I don't think retrofitting it will work. Start with the T5 task system (if people like it) and build from there.
Same with a setting... build something new. Take it out of the Imperium. Don't connect it at all. We have the 3rd Imperium. Multiple versions. They all copy each other. Do something new that showcases the "whatever" that T5 offers. Because if T5 is planned as an actual product and not a custom book for very special people, then it shouldn't try to compete with the existing OTU stuff out there.
No animals were hurt in writing this message. It's not my intention to pick fights or denigrate T5 or the work that was put into it. I realize folks here have a significant stake because they helped work on it. But maybe the time has come for those same folks to apply all that energy and imagination to something new.
MM created something amazing. Maybe it's someone else's turn. Someone here.
EDIT: Only disagreement with Aramis' list is that spaceships (basic) need to be in main book.
Is T5 too big for one man?
I know Marc has help, but seems to me this has been, mostly, a one man show.
And from comments, it looks like a one man show.
The original T5 discussions on this board date back to 2001 (if the dates are to be believed and weren't corrupted in some way -- but they look legit).
I know the beta/preview was out for several YEARS before the book came about. The book itself has been out for about 2 years.
I also know that I personally would have real issues trying to keep 700 pages of anything organized and coherent.
Now, i don't want to project my limitations on anyone else.
But, historically, this has not been a good example of rapid development.
So, my question is whether there any reasonable expectation of much change, much less in a shorter time frame, considering the lack of resourcing available to the project?
I know Marc has help, but seems to me this has been, mostly, a one man show.
And from comments, it looks like a one man show.
The original T5 discussions on this board date back to 2001 (if the dates are to be believed and weren't corrupted in some way -- but they look legit).
I know the beta/preview was out for several YEARS before the book came about. The book itself has been out for about 2 years.
I also know that I personally would have real issues trying to keep 700 pages of anything organized and coherent.
Now, i don't want to project my limitations on anyone else.
But, historically, this has not been a good example of rapid development.
So, my question is whether there any reasonable expectation of much change, much less in a shorter time frame, considering the lack of resourcing available to the project?
Here are first/second impressions on T5 from someone new to Traveller, for what it's worth.
Note that I really do like it, as you may guess by the length of this post.
As a background, I'd heard of Traveller for a long time, but not that much more than descriptions from play sessions (and what can be found on Atomic Rockets). Still, a well-detailed pan-SF set of rules and what seems like pretty nice settings. It was one of the types of games I'd want to run, probably as a GM.
So, hearing about T5.09, I decided to give the PDF a try.
(With no access to Gunmaker&cie, I'll need to either find alternate or build my own, though.)
The book (well, the PDF) is huge. That's not a problem by itself - on the contrary, it's great to have one big resource with much everything needed inside.
The problem, however, is that it's not easy to enter it. Let's for example take character generation. It's well-detailed but also overwhelming, which I feel will drown many a newcomer who already have to assimilate an entire new ruleset.
Examples of the process are a good thing, but a quick-chargen system would be welcome, particularly for new players and/or short campaign.
Once newcomers are more familiarised with the game, it's time to break the complete rules for those who want it.
I haven't actually started a campaign yet, and while I am indeed short on time at the moment, it is also because I'll have a hard time asking from players such an up-front effort.
Many systems would be helped by such "quick options" available. Ideally, there would be a subset of the rules that could be showed at the newcomers so they can get to play fast and learn the subtleties of the complete rules gradually.
Examples in general are nice, and T5 is kind of lacking there.
For some reason, examples of processes (like chargen) don't feel as clear as they should.
They are sometimes lacking, also. For example, there is no example of how a bigger apparent size (size > range) influence detection roll. This one is especially problematic as the rule itself is counter-intuitive. This one in particular is more of an errata thing, but it felt like a general trend.
Examples help in two main ways, to me.
First, they help give a flavour of the world(s), or at least the kind of world generated in the case of a toolkit, as well as give the range of possibilities.
Second, they help the Referee in giving usable or easily tweakable material without having to build it from scratch, saving up both efforts, mental resources and time.
Example NPCs (both mooks, supporting cast and "PC-grade" characters) would be great. Most would probably be humans.
Vehicles, weapons and other equipment feel lacking here, for a newcomer. We have lists of equipment in compressed format, but remember that this format is hard to parse at first, so it doesn't feel usable, and doesn't give any "feel".
Developing them, with worked out stats (including parctical things like 'grab and shoot' stats in combat), and one sentence description would be nice, particularly if it gives a range of types, uses and TLs.
Similarly, an additional longer, less developed list of ships (e.g. no art, short descriptions - like above) would be nice to have. The example ships are nice, but they feel like a small subset of all the variety that must be out there.
Example sophonts could also have a few example NPCs and equipments listed.
A few, varied example worlds would also help. Not fully setting-detailed, but enough to get the feel of the place and have a few plot hooks. Probably with a few examples of typical equipment/ships/NPCs around.
There is art for examples all around, generally in the form of a band with multiple of them side to side - strangely, not next to said examples.
Those could be copied/cut and paste next to the actual stated/described example, giving a better feel to both what the picture represents, and what the bunch of stats actually is in this world.
In general, though, some systems feel very complex to use - the recent chargen flowcharts show that. Same for, say, combat or personals. Even with quickstart rules and examples, it felt they need to be streamlined a bit/better presented for use.
For chargen in particular, actually role-playing the character's past would be pretty nice. It is what some players and referees actually do, for what I've heard, and I've seen it in other RPGs (ex. Fate Core). This should be put in the book, as advice or even with rules to help it. (Bonus points if there are hooks for the players interacting during said chargen - helping with "you all meet in the starport's tavern" syndrome.)
It doesn't mean it should be detailed as a full session - simply describing the important scenes and events, what the player decides and the direct consequences, so no more than a few minutes per event.
Right now, those descriptions feel like Wikipedia's "plot summary": probably a good story, but too drily presented as it is.
Shipgen may also gain from this.
Building/retrofitting/salvaging/commandeering a ship should be a big, interesting endeavour, and it helps players "owning" the ship instead of simply "using" it. The Expanse does that pretty well, but book tricks aren't necessarily reusable here.
(This is the part where I'd probably add simulated battles to my players - but of course in actual battles, they would discover that their ship isn't quite the theoretical ideal of the simulation, unless they did put special care - read resources - to quality)
Ideally, it may even be extended to the ship crew - to have them being people more than featureless numbers.
The flow of the book felt a bit off.
Ideally, it needs to be
"what a newcomer needs to get an idea" (which it does have)
>> "what a player needs to play" (chargen, combat rules...)
>> "what a Referee needs to run a short campaign" (NPC examples, stuff examples, more setting stuff)
>> "the Deep Stuff" (world generation, sophont generation...)
>> "Annexes" (dice tables, dense info resources...) (which it does have, though maybe compressed example lists could be useful there, classified by TL, type...)
I'm not sure it is following this structure as well as it should, though I'd need to re-read it to be sure.
This isn't helped by the lack of a table of contents for the PDF, though I expect that to be fixed in the 5.1.
The setting is in a weird position here.
On one hand, it's better to have a setting than to go full, dry toolbox, as other explained here.
But if it wanted to go full toolbox, the setting is still not trivial to cut loose, as it is not really separated from the pure "mechanical" parts.
Even with a more developed setting, maybe care should be taken to make it easier to cut and replace by Referees wanting so - that or more completely interwoven with the mechanics.
On the other hand, it is not developed enough to give a feeling of what kind of Universe that is, what kind of people inhabit it and what kind of events happen in it. It feels like reading a Wikipedia page about the Mongol Empire, instead of reading an actual history book or/and a novel about it.
It fails to give plot hooks - the example play in the intro is really good, and you can see how a session, or even a whole campaign can flow from there. But there aren't really materials elsewhere to build that kind of story. Of course, a good Referee will probably come up with something, but again, it's harder. And less experienced Referees can really need that kind of help.
For example, amber and red zones: there should be examples given. They don't need to be more than a few sentences (though a few longer could be nice), and that would be instant plot ideas for the Referee.
Examples are a great way to add setting in a natural way, even simpler ones.
( Not necessarily Traveller-adapted example: ) A gauss carabine model is nothing special.
But a sentence about how it is famous by being the main weapon of a legendary Marine regiment tells you that said regiment exists, is special, maybe with a hint of events (what made the legend).
Another sentence about how armchair warriors like it so much they're the main users tells you there are armchair warriors, it's not an otherwise widely used weapon (maybe because of the stigma), and though it may be easier to find than other equivalents (in places where armchair warriors are good, numerous customers), it comes with a stigma.
If you want to have a more de-correlated toolkit/setting, examples would be more generic than that, but it still stands. Say, replace the specific regiment by a generic "special forces", add a "in some places"...
Ultimately, for the setting, there is this test: removing all the rules, would I want to play this, as written?
At first, I was expecting some rules for BCS and large-scale combat. The problem is, this wait was strengthened by the presence of skills like "fleet tactics" and such - which have otherwise no function in the game.
So its lack, while comprehensible in retrospective, disappointed me.
As an aside, the Dean Drive actually made me audibly groan.
It needs to be thrown into a sun. And then have the sun go nova. And then throw the nova remnants in a black hole. And then throw the black hole into a pocket universe, close all the gates and Big Crunch it to oblivion.
And then retcon it from the face of reality, Redemption Ark-style - it's the only way to be sure.
As another aside, "Traveller is hard-SF" made me chuckle. It may be better to reformulate that. Nothing wrong with soft-SF, and it was more to point out the intricate set of rules it is following than an attempt to follow actual, known science as closely as possible.
Note that I really do like it, as you may guess by the length of this post.
As a background, I'd heard of Traveller for a long time, but not that much more than descriptions from play sessions (and what can be found on Atomic Rockets). Still, a well-detailed pan-SF set of rules and what seems like pretty nice settings. It was one of the types of games I'd want to run, probably as a GM.
So, hearing about T5.09, I decided to give the PDF a try.
(With no access to Gunmaker&cie, I'll need to either find alternate or build my own, though.)
The book (well, the PDF) is huge. That's not a problem by itself - on the contrary, it's great to have one big resource with much everything needed inside.
The problem, however, is that it's not easy to enter it. Let's for example take character generation. It's well-detailed but also overwhelming, which I feel will drown many a newcomer who already have to assimilate an entire new ruleset.
Examples of the process are a good thing, but a quick-chargen system would be welcome, particularly for new players and/or short campaign.
Once newcomers are more familiarised with the game, it's time to break the complete rules for those who want it.
I haven't actually started a campaign yet, and while I am indeed short on time at the moment, it is also because I'll have a hard time asking from players such an up-front effort.
Many systems would be helped by such "quick options" available. Ideally, there would be a subset of the rules that could be showed at the newcomers so they can get to play fast and learn the subtleties of the complete rules gradually.
Examples in general are nice, and T5 is kind of lacking there.
For some reason, examples of processes (like chargen) don't feel as clear as they should.
They are sometimes lacking, also. For example, there is no example of how a bigger apparent size (size > range) influence detection roll. This one is especially problematic as the rule itself is counter-intuitive. This one in particular is more of an errata thing, but it felt like a general trend.
Examples help in two main ways, to me.
First, they help give a flavour of the world(s), or at least the kind of world generated in the case of a toolkit, as well as give the range of possibilities.
Second, they help the Referee in giving usable or easily tweakable material without having to build it from scratch, saving up both efforts, mental resources and time.
Example NPCs (both mooks, supporting cast and "PC-grade" characters) would be great. Most would probably be humans.
Vehicles, weapons and other equipment feel lacking here, for a newcomer. We have lists of equipment in compressed format, but remember that this format is hard to parse at first, so it doesn't feel usable, and doesn't give any "feel".
Developing them, with worked out stats (including parctical things like 'grab and shoot' stats in combat), and one sentence description would be nice, particularly if it gives a range of types, uses and TLs.
Similarly, an additional longer, less developed list of ships (e.g. no art, short descriptions - like above) would be nice to have. The example ships are nice, but they feel like a small subset of all the variety that must be out there.
Example sophonts could also have a few example NPCs and equipments listed.
A few, varied example worlds would also help. Not fully setting-detailed, but enough to get the feel of the place and have a few plot hooks. Probably with a few examples of typical equipment/ships/NPCs around.
There is art for examples all around, generally in the form of a band with multiple of them side to side - strangely, not next to said examples.
Those could be copied/cut and paste next to the actual stated/described example, giving a better feel to both what the picture represents, and what the bunch of stats actually is in this world.
In general, though, some systems feel very complex to use - the recent chargen flowcharts show that. Same for, say, combat or personals. Even with quickstart rules and examples, it felt they need to be streamlined a bit/better presented for use.
For chargen in particular, actually role-playing the character's past would be pretty nice. It is what some players and referees actually do, for what I've heard, and I've seen it in other RPGs (ex. Fate Core). This should be put in the book, as advice or even with rules to help it. (Bonus points if there are hooks for the players interacting during said chargen - helping with "you all meet in the starport's tavern" syndrome.)
It doesn't mean it should be detailed as a full session - simply describing the important scenes and events, what the player decides and the direct consequences, so no more than a few minutes per event.
Right now, those descriptions feel like Wikipedia's "plot summary": probably a good story, but too drily presented as it is.
Shipgen may also gain from this.
Building/retrofitting/salvaging/commandeering a ship should be a big, interesting endeavour, and it helps players "owning" the ship instead of simply "using" it. The Expanse does that pretty well, but book tricks aren't necessarily reusable here.
(This is the part where I'd probably add simulated battles to my players - but of course in actual battles, they would discover that their ship isn't quite the theoretical ideal of the simulation, unless they did put special care - read resources - to quality)
Ideally, it may even be extended to the ship crew - to have them being people more than featureless numbers.
The flow of the book felt a bit off.
Ideally, it needs to be
"what a newcomer needs to get an idea" (which it does have)
>> "what a player needs to play" (chargen, combat rules...)
>> "what a Referee needs to run a short campaign" (NPC examples, stuff examples, more setting stuff)
>> "the Deep Stuff" (world generation, sophont generation...)
>> "Annexes" (dice tables, dense info resources...) (which it does have, though maybe compressed example lists could be useful there, classified by TL, type...)
I'm not sure it is following this structure as well as it should, though I'd need to re-read it to be sure.
This isn't helped by the lack of a table of contents for the PDF, though I expect that to be fixed in the 5.1.
The setting is in a weird position here.
On one hand, it's better to have a setting than to go full, dry toolbox, as other explained here.
But if it wanted to go full toolbox, the setting is still not trivial to cut loose, as it is not really separated from the pure "mechanical" parts.
Even with a more developed setting, maybe care should be taken to make it easier to cut and replace by Referees wanting so - that or more completely interwoven with the mechanics.
On the other hand, it is not developed enough to give a feeling of what kind of Universe that is, what kind of people inhabit it and what kind of events happen in it. It feels like reading a Wikipedia page about the Mongol Empire, instead of reading an actual history book or/and a novel about it.
It fails to give plot hooks - the example play in the intro is really good, and you can see how a session, or even a whole campaign can flow from there. But there aren't really materials elsewhere to build that kind of story. Of course, a good Referee will probably come up with something, but again, it's harder. And less experienced Referees can really need that kind of help.
For example, amber and red zones: there should be examples given. They don't need to be more than a few sentences (though a few longer could be nice), and that would be instant plot ideas for the Referee.
Examples are a great way to add setting in a natural way, even simpler ones.
( Not necessarily Traveller-adapted example: ) A gauss carabine model is nothing special.
But a sentence about how it is famous by being the main weapon of a legendary Marine regiment tells you that said regiment exists, is special, maybe with a hint of events (what made the legend).
Another sentence about how armchair warriors like it so much they're the main users tells you there are armchair warriors, it's not an otherwise widely used weapon (maybe because of the stigma), and though it may be easier to find than other equivalents (in places where armchair warriors are good, numerous customers), it comes with a stigma.
If you want to have a more de-correlated toolkit/setting, examples would be more generic than that, but it still stands. Say, replace the specific regiment by a generic "special forces", add a "in some places"...
Ultimately, for the setting, there is this test: removing all the rules, would I want to play this, as written?
At first, I was expecting some rules for BCS and large-scale combat. The problem is, this wait was strengthened by the presence of skills like "fleet tactics" and such - which have otherwise no function in the game.
So its lack, while comprehensible in retrospective, disappointed me.
As an aside, the Dean Drive actually made me audibly groan.
It needs to be thrown into a sun. And then have the sun go nova. And then throw the nova remnants in a black hole. And then throw the black hole into a pocket universe, close all the gates and Big Crunch it to oblivion.
And then retcon it from the face of reality, Redemption Ark-style - it's the only way to be sure.
As another aside, "Traveller is hard-SF" made me chuckle. It may be better to reformulate that. Nothing wrong with soft-SF, and it was more to point out the intricate set of rules it is following than an attempt to follow actual, known science as closely as possible.
Perhaps, a change in mindset moving forward...
It appears to me, the T5 BBB is aimed at previous players/Refs and gives us the information to adapt form previous editions to the current ( or to somewhere in-between - house rules ).
My thoughts going forward, would be to create a Refs manual and a Players manual, BUT, focus them from the perspective of people who have NEVER played Traveller before...
Leaving the BBB as technical manual for us old timers.
It appears to me, the T5 BBB is aimed at previous players/Refs and gives us the information to adapt form previous editions to the current ( or to somewhere in-between - house rules ).
My thoughts going forward, would be to create a Refs manual and a Players manual, BUT, focus them from the perspective of people who have NEVER played Traveller before...
Leaving the BBB as technical manual for us old timers.
Perhaps, a change in mindset moving forward...
It appears to me, the T5 BBB is aimed at previous players/Refs and gives us the information to adapt form previous editions to the current ( or to somewhere in-between - house rules ).
My thoughts going forward, would be to create a Refs manual and a Players manual, BUT, focus them from the perspective of people who have NEVER played Traveller before...
Leaving the BBB as technical manual for us old timers.
Agreed.
I was wondering why I discarded T5 so fast. It was an odd feeling because I barely even gave it a good look. And then I remembered where I had felt that feeling before...
/FLASHBACK MONTAGE
Imagine a 5th grade kid. His buddy's older brother had them up late playing, not D&D or Star Frontiers as normal, but a game called Traveller. Even now the specifics are hazy but it involved selling guns to primitives and making lots of money. Yes, I think the primitives had money enough to buy laser rifles. Don't ask/not important. The rules are also hazy but there were many deaths in character generation. The game had all these little black books and one of them had a cool picture of a guy with a fusion gun... the kid's character bought one of those with his ill-gotten gains!
This kid loves it and goes to the game store. He buys it. It's not a little book. It's this...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--1QtSRrCnqc/VdDHXKo2cvI/AAAAAAAABQk/M9Wmz_4GKjg/s1600/Traveller_Book.jpg
The kid opens it up and goes through it. Puts it down and never looks at it again.
Nearly thirty years later, I can still perfectly recall one of the pages that killed me. It had orbital mechanics and showed a ship going around a planet and there were square roots. Book closed. Never looked at again.
I was thinking about that yesterday and remembered that, yes, I still have that book. It's with old Dungeons and Dragons stuff in my basement in a bin. I remember seeing it when I put the bin in there and went "reminiscing" through old stuff.
What's important is that I got into Traveller eight years ago and STILL didn't go find that book. I waited for Mongoose to come out instead of pulling out that book. I'm not saying CT (which is what I think it was Bk1-3 compiled) is incomprehensible. But it wasn't an easy read for a youthful audience. It turned me off from the game for nearly thirty years.
My point being... if you want new players, you need a soft landing/seductive start for them. Start small, call it micro-Traveller. The concepts and the plumbing don't need to be in there up-front. Just showcase the game, the task system, the setting and have an intro adventure.
T5, thirty years later, with me being much more interested and competent, did the same thing to me. It simply shut me off and down. It may be a "Traveller-heartbreaker" but it's not a game for release/marketing to new customers/players. That's what I think the problem is... it's a game for diehards by diehards. Which, if that's what it's supposed to be, is totally fine. But that means its fairly inaccessible to a new audience.
Okay, last monologue, on to fixing problems!
No no, there's room for one more monologue.
I was young. I had probably already played D&D, although I'm not sure.
I read the first page of an LBB, where it says "Travellers travel". The players travel to different planets -- which are designed by the referee -- and they do essentially whatever they want. The ultimate sandbox. The referee's nightmare.
I never picked up those books again. I remember thinking that game is too complicated - that I could not understand how to manage such a game. So I bought Gamma World 1e (1980). I didn't buy Traveller until about 14 years later -- which is a pity.
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I came to Traveller after having played 2 years of D&D/AD&D, and a couple weeks of Star Frontiers (daily M-F 40min sessions).
We never saw a rulebook until I was given one after playing for 3 months. Already hooked on the game, it became my go-to game for 3 years (A status ended by discovering T2K and Robotech).
Why did I stay with it, 30 years ago? Those very pages that turned Kilgs away. It used Real Rocket Science. Guns killed people. Not every world was a shirtsleeve environment.
CT's combination of simple rules and real science was the appeal of CT. And if you cruise the OSR boards, that's still part of CT's appeal.
MT's fans, myself included, prefer it for its elegance - it's not as simple as CT, but the rules intermesh more tightly, and it's almost as simple in the in play stuff as CT.
And it still (largely) used real rocket science.
We never saw a rulebook until I was given one after playing for 3 months. Already hooked on the game, it became my go-to game for 3 years (A status ended by discovering T2K and Robotech).
Why did I stay with it, 30 years ago? Those very pages that turned Kilgs away. It used Real Rocket Science. Guns killed people. Not every world was a shirtsleeve environment.
CT's combination of simple rules and real science was the appeal of CT. And if you cruise the OSR boards, that's still part of CT's appeal.
MT's fans, myself included, prefer it for its elegance - it's not as simple as CT, but the rules intermesh more tightly, and it's almost as simple in the in play stuff as CT.
And it still (largely) used real rocket science.
I came to Traveller at pretty much the same time as AD&D, in fact I hit AD&D, then Traveller, and then Call of Cthulhu as soon as it came out. I've been playing the holy trinity of RPG's pretty much since the beginning.
Right now one of the things that is rambling around the grognards of the D&D OSR is a lot of wonderment and discovery of Appendix N - which they evidently have never read "back in the day" and are amazed at the "true roots of the game" blah, blah, blah...
Now me, my parents were F&SF geeks so I'd read much of Appendix N as well as the similar set of books that Traveller seems rooted in.
That's my problem with T5 is that I can't find Earl Dumarest or Dominic Flandry in the game. I can't find Barsoom or even LV-428, and while I suppose I might find passage on the Solar Queen or pillage with the Nemesis. it probably won't be that familiar a ship.
Now, it's not that T5 needs a "Library Data" to explain to all the newbs or all the grognards what they are supposed know about the holy texts of Traveller - but I think that the beginning books need to decide what they are selling people. There isn't a easy-to-access or define vision of what T5 is - and without it I think anything will fail to reach new players.
D.
Right now one of the things that is rambling around the grognards of the D&D OSR is a lot of wonderment and discovery of Appendix N - which they evidently have never read "back in the day" and are amazed at the "true roots of the game" blah, blah, blah...
Now me, my parents were F&SF geeks so I'd read much of Appendix N as well as the similar set of books that Traveller seems rooted in.
That's my problem with T5 is that I can't find Earl Dumarest or Dominic Flandry in the game. I can't find Barsoom or even LV-428, and while I suppose I might find passage on the Solar Queen or pillage with the Nemesis. it probably won't be that familiar a ship.
Now, it's not that T5 needs a "Library Data" to explain to all the newbs or all the grognards what they are supposed know about the holy texts of Traveller - but I think that the beginning books need to decide what they are selling people. There isn't a easy-to-access or define vision of what T5 is - and without it I think anything will fail to reach new players.
D.
That's not just a problem for T5... it's a fundamental flaw of many many games. T5 and MGT both.
Traveller evolved from semi-generic (1977) to "you can make it do X, but it's aimed at the OTU" (early 80's) to "The OTU game" (mid and late 80's). T5 is still in the early 80's mindset - Yes, it's built for a specific setting, but it's supposed to be flexible enough to allow a variety of settings with only minor changes.
MGT has that same issue, but from the other side. It claims to be generic... but lacks a wide range of generic drives and systems, remaining focused on the OTU drives and tropes.
Which is part of why I suggested that a T5 basic sec needs to mention the tropes of the setting. T5 as is lacks enough setting fluff to grasp it from T5 alone.
Going back to your original post, here are my thoughts, based on falling into the category of "Traveller players new to T5" and rejecting it as an option a year or so ago: 1 & 2 above are worthy goals, but I would think carefully about any "Advanced" or "Very Advanced" rules, as you will almost certainly limit your audience for those. Leave those items as optional (i.e., don't put Gunmaker, Starship Maker, etc. in the Advanced or Very Advanced rules without having a good set of stock examples in the Fast Start & Simple rules in 1 & 2, as others have pointed out): in other words T5 should be completely playable with just 1 & 2.
That said, the two main detractions of T5, for me, were lack of compatibility with CT/MT/MgT and the unfinished state. And reading others' opinions on sites not CoTI the latter point is mentioned time and again, usually accompanied by other pejoratives. Lowering these two barriers to entry is going to take a fair amount of work/rework/reconsidering what T5 "is". I've found the barriers to entry for my mashup of CT/MT/MgT to be much, much lower than T5 for these reasons.
mega:Wow! I didn't realize this topic would generate so much interest.
So, let's recap.
1. Fast Start Rules - game mechanics, pregen chars, adventure, description of the OTU (M1900) - get people to the table inside of an hour
2. Player's Handbook - chars, equipment, & ACS
3. GM's Guidebook - how-to, extra rules, more setting info
4. Gearhead Toolkit
Before #1 can be produced, the rules have to be fixed. None of this can happen until the people associated with the project can overcome their analysis paralysis and come up with a path forward. I say that with a love of Traveller in my heart; I am not pointing a finger at any one person. It happens with group-think.
My suggestion for a start would be:
1. Create a 1 page description of the task system.
2. Create a 1 page setting description.
3. Put out 5.9.1 with all of the known errata incorporated so that it can continue to be vetted. Include 1 & 2 above.
4. Create a group of playtest characters (Navy <oops Spacer>, Marine, Army <oops Soldier>, Scout, Merchant, and Other <oops Rogue>).
5. Create a serial adventure (that can be broken down into chapters, approx 1 chapter per gaming session). The adventure doesn't need to be complete to start with, but several chapters must be ready to go. Remember Traveller's Digest? Too bad FFE doesn't have the DGP rights.
6. Provide all of the above to some playtest groups.
7. Continue working on additional adventure chapters for the playtest groups.
8. Work on the other books to be produced as well as continuing to fix the BBB. Put out updates on a regular basis based on accumulated errata and playtest suggestions.
BTW, I volunteer to playtest. I am getting together with family for Christmas and would love to play Traveller with them. Most have gamed before, but have not played Traveller.
Cheers,
Baron Ovka
So, let's recap.
1. Fast Start Rules - game mechanics, pregen chars, adventure, description of the OTU (M1900) - get people to the table inside of an hour
2. Player's Handbook - chars, equipment, & ACS
3. GM's Guidebook - how-to, extra rules, more setting info
4. Gearhead Toolkit
Before #1 can be produced, the rules have to be fixed. None of this can happen until the people associated with the project can overcome their analysis paralysis and come up with a path forward. I say that with a love of Traveller in my heart; I am not pointing a finger at any one person. It happens with group-think.
My suggestion for a start would be:
1. Create a 1 page description of the task system.
2. Create a 1 page setting description.
3. Put out 5.9.1 with all of the known errata incorporated so that it can continue to be vetted. Include 1 & 2 above.
4. Create a group of playtest characters (Navy <oops Spacer>, Marine, Army <oops Soldier>, Scout, Merchant, and Other <oops Rogue>).
5. Create a serial adventure (that can be broken down into chapters, approx 1 chapter per gaming session). The adventure doesn't need to be complete to start with, but several chapters must be ready to go. Remember Traveller's Digest? Too bad FFE doesn't have the DGP rights.
6. Provide all of the above to some playtest groups.
7. Continue working on additional adventure chapters for the playtest groups.
8. Work on the other books to be produced as well as continuing to fix the BBB. Put out updates on a regular basis based on accumulated errata and playtest suggestions.
BTW, I volunteer to playtest.
I am getting together with family for Christmas and would love to play Traveller with them. Most have gamed before, but have not played Traveller.Cheers,
Baron Ovka
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow! I didn't realize this topic would generate so much interest.
It's a good sign, isn't it?
Re #1. Just a thought: how about a quickstart that can be bolted on to any pre-existing adventure? Ten pages or less.
Re #2. How about no ACS. Shades of LBB1/MT Player's Guide, instead.
Re #4. Might as well just call it BBB.
Stop that section at the end of the first sentence. There is no analysis paralysis going on.
My suggestion for a start would be:
[...]
BTW, I volunteer to playtest.
Are you volunteering to playtest over the Christmas break? If you're interested, Greg Lee's Cirque is out there. If you need pre-gen characters, they can be supplied (and there are a few referred to in my T5 Helps stickied thread too). And go fetch my abridged equipment list from its thread in this forum. And the starship summaries, too.
Absolutely!
Yes, but I think it also needs to include an adventure. Remember, I said get people to the table in one hour or less. I think that is important.
I'm OK with that. I think my OP didn't include ACS in the "simple" rules, but someone suggested including it so I added it in. It at least needs a description of the ships that characters get shares of.
Works for me.
Fair enough. I'm glad to hear that. I don't have any insider knowledge, so I can only say that it seems that way.
YES!
My brother has the MgT beta rules and is participating in the beta testing for the rpg suite that is being worked on for it. We'll be together for a week with our families. We discussed it last night, and I think he and I are both going to run something.
I would love to be able to put a positive spin on T5. Unfortunately, the MgT rules seem to be closer to the d20/Pathfinder rules that most of the people that will be playing are comfortable with.
Good point! Hopefully if I order it now, hopefully it will come in time ...
Cheers,
Baron Ovka
If the new material is aimed at new players, not old refs, ACS isn't required. Nor any of the makers, what players need is... Easy to follow character generation and standard equipment lists, descriptions of standard ships to complete/flesh out their characters. Standard costs and TL at which their new equipment is available. Finally a full list/description of skills/knowledge's and possibly how they work with the task system - insert working examples here.....
A descent blurb before char gen about the OTU to get them thinking about what kind of char they would like playing and then straight into it.
Ask ourselves what would I want if I was trying out a new rpg myself, to get involved as fast as possible?
A descent blurb before char gen about the OTU to get them thinking about what kind of char they would like playing and then straight into it.
Ask ourselves what would I want if I was trying out a new rpg myself, to get involved as fast as possible?
There is another option: open it up.
Take a look at Apocalypse World. There is a book/pdf to buy but a lot of stuff available for players for free. It has spawned a ton of 'hacks', some that have gone on to become very successful products of their own, such as Dungeon World, which has inspired its own 3rd party products like The Perilous Wilds). There is a Traveller one (actually I think there are several).
(There are similar examples that don't come to mind because I'm exhausted).
The point is: a solid, easily understood play structure (characters and moves in playbooks) and being ok with player 'hacking'. Put those two together and you have a pretty extensible system that is easy for newbies to get into. And those motivated to produce something of quality can go to town with hope of some reward. And while any indie RPG writer expecting it to pay the bills is very, if not foolishly, optimistic, quality will out.
All Maker, design sequence, FF&S as optional secondary book(lets). Different settings with different types of interstellar drives, whatever. Those things are labors of love and not required. And stuffing them into a doorstop is a waste.
To me Traveller is (1) career-based chargen + (2) sci-fi. I've never been impressed with any of the various combat systems other than the Snapshot/ACQ approach, nor the space combat - and number 1 is the most interesting to me.
I've been playing with the T5 chargen for a while now (on and off, most recently on), and at least for me, I had stop trying to tweak T5. No tweaking, revising, etc. Just starting from scratch but taking stuff from all versions, including MGT. That's the only way I've been able to make progress on the Traveller I want to play and run.
And it helps to keep in mind that random tables are also setting. Skill tables with Cutlass and Gambler, or benefits tables with Knighthoods and Passages tell you a lot about the specific time and place they are in.
Take a look at Apocalypse World. There is a book/pdf to buy but a lot of stuff available for players for free. It has spawned a ton of 'hacks', some that have gone on to become very successful products of their own, such as Dungeon World, which has inspired its own 3rd party products like The Perilous Wilds). There is a Traveller one (actually I think there are several).
(There are similar examples that don't come to mind because I'm exhausted).
The point is: a solid, easily understood play structure (characters and moves in playbooks) and being ok with player 'hacking'. Put those two together and you have a pretty extensible system that is easy for newbies to get into. And those motivated to produce something of quality can go to town with hope of some reward. And while any indie RPG writer expecting it to pay the bills is very, if not foolishly, optimistic, quality will out.
All Maker, design sequence, FF&S as optional secondary book(lets). Different settings with different types of interstellar drives, whatever. Those things are labors of love and not required. And stuffing them into a doorstop is a waste.
To me Traveller is (1) career-based chargen + (2) sci-fi. I've never been impressed with any of the various combat systems other than the Snapshot/ACQ approach, nor the space combat - and number 1 is the most interesting to me.
I've been playing with the T5 chargen for a while now (on and off, most recently on), and at least for me, I had stop trying to tweak T5. No tweaking, revising, etc. Just starting from scratch but taking stuff from all versions, including MGT. That's the only way I've been able to make progress on the Traveller I want to play and run.
And it helps to keep in mind that random tables are also setting. Skill tables with Cutlass and Gambler, or benefits tables with Knighthoods and Passages tell you a lot about the specific time and place they are in.
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