Its fusion, sure, but does it heat water that creates steam that drives a turbine that produces electricity? Or does in power magnets that cause a turbine to rotate that does the same job? In other words how does the fusion reaction create power that fuels the J drive and M drive?
How does a power plant work?
- Thread starter Elliot
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Drakon
SOC-14 1K
In My Traveller Universe: Fusion plants work by surrounding the fusion chamber with a special kind of equipment, not unlike detectors that are used in high energy physics experiments, but more closely related to solar panels.
Radiation, and heat activate the multi-spectrum photo-voltaic equipment, translating the multiple frequencies into usable electric (DC) power.
There is a cooling system, as the photo-cells will not do the job. While the plants are set up so they can be attached to steam generating system, this is rarely used as the photo-voltic system is more solid state, more reliable, and the efficiency is about the same. (In the range of about 15 to 20 percent of the power created by fusion is turned into usable power.)
But then, this still leaves a huge heat load that needs to be dealt with.
And this is My Traveller Universe. A universe in which I am God and things are the way I say they are.
Your milage may vary.
Radiation, and heat activate the multi-spectrum photo-voltaic equipment, translating the multiple frequencies into usable electric (DC) power.
There is a cooling system, as the photo-cells will not do the job. While the plants are set up so they can be attached to steam generating system, this is rarely used as the photo-voltic system is more solid state, more reliable, and the efficiency is about the same. (In the range of about 15 to 20 percent of the power created by fusion is turned into usable power.)
But then, this still leaves a huge heat load that needs to be dealt with.
And this is My Traveller Universe. A universe in which I am God and things are the way I say they are.
Another possibility: Fusion plants produce electricity by magnetohydrodynamics (MHD). Plasma from the fusion reaction is channeled by magnetic fields into a loop. The plasma is conductive, and the loop functions as a generator coil. As with Drakon's concept, this produces both electricity and waste heat. Possibilites for dealing with the waste heat include thermal exhaust port(s), radiating fins, or heat sinks. The upshot of an MHD-based fusion reactor is that its reaction doesn't release neutrons, and so can operate indefinitely without becoming radioactive.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
I would like to point out that so far, none of these methods are mutually exclusive. MDH (which sadly I know too little about) and multispectrum photo-voltics (we'll call it MSPV for now,) can be used by the same plant. One could even use a steam plant system to extract more energy from the reaction.
No neutrons??? I find that a bit hard to believe. If you got fusion, you are going to get radioactivity and secondary activation of materials. These have got to be sheilded, or else you will kill the crew.
No neutrons??? I find that a bit hard to believe. If you got fusion, you are going to get radioactivity and secondary activation of materials. These have got to be sheilded, or else you will kill the crew.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
FF&S says: "Fission and fusion reactors use the heat to boil water to turn a high-pressure turbine to generate electrical power."
Not really, Drakon, the basic deuterium fusion reaction takes two atoms of deuterium (each of which contain 1 proton, 1 neutron, and 1 electron) and fuses them to create a helium atom (which has two protons, 2 neutrons, and 2 electrons). Nothing is left over. However, if you're using tritium (which has 1 proton, 2 neutrons, and 1 electron) in your fusion reactor, there will be neutrons left over, and therefore radioactivity. Information for this post came from:
Los Alamos National Lab Periodic Table Page:
http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/default.htm
and
www.chemicalelements.com.
Los Alamos National Lab Periodic Table Page:
http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/default.htm
and
www.chemicalelements.com.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I believe the helium-3/deuterium fusion route is also neutron free (it does produce protons though) and is up tp 80% efficient.
In D-D fusion, the primary reactions are:
D+D->3He + n ; 3He + D -> 4He + p
D+D->T + p ; T + D -> 4He + n
Net, in either case, is D+D+D -> 4He + p + n
There is a small chance of D+D->4He + gamma, but it's quite unlikely.
For a fuel mix of D-3He, there aren't any neutrons released by that particular reaction, but there will be some D+D reactions occurring in the fuel, so there is a modest neutron flux from such a reactor as well. For a true neutron-free cycle, you need something like 11B + p -> 12C + gamma.
D+D->3He + n ; 3He + D -> 4He + p
D+D->T + p ; T + D -> 4He + n
Net, in either case, is D+D+D -> 4He + p + n
There is a small chance of D+D->4He + gamma, but it's quite unlikely.
For a fuel mix of D-3He, there aren't any neutrons released by that particular reaction, but there will be some D+D reactions occurring in the fuel, so there is a modest neutron flux from such a reactor as well. For a true neutron-free cycle, you need something like 11B + p -> 12C + gamma.
An interesting thought here is that the fusion reactiors, while clean, will produce a byproduct, most likely helium or an isotope thereof.
It's possible this helium would have to be seperated frok the hydrogen isotopes being fusioned to keep it from clogging up the reaction, rather like removing ashes from a fire.
Also, if the byproduct is an exotic helium isotope, like helium3, it might be of some use in various hi tech or scientific applications, tho if it is a watste product of common power sources it won't be worth anything, tho it could still be useful.
As far as I know, most traveller tech specifies that the fusion uses liquid hydrogen, at which point foru hydrogen atoms are fusioned to form a single helium atom, with some of the protons and neutrons being joined to create neutrons.
Note that in this case, with 4 hydrogen atoms making one helium atom, 2 of the hydrogen atoms would become neutrons, their protons and electrons forced together to become a neutron, while the other two would donate their protons and electrons intact to form the atom, and there would therefore be neutrons created, but bound in the new helium atom and therefor not released.
It's possible this helium would have to be seperated frok the hydrogen isotopes being fusioned to keep it from clogging up the reaction, rather like removing ashes from a fire.
Also, if the byproduct is an exotic helium isotope, like helium3, it might be of some use in various hi tech or scientific applications, tho if it is a watste product of common power sources it won't be worth anything, tho it could still be useful.
As far as I know, most traveller tech specifies that the fusion uses liquid hydrogen, at which point foru hydrogen atoms are fusioned to form a single helium atom, with some of the protons and neutrons being joined to create neutrons.
Note that in this case, with 4 hydrogen atoms making one helium atom, 2 of the hydrogen atoms would become neutrons, their protons and electrons forced together to become a neutron, while the other two would donate their protons and electrons intact to form the atom, and there would therefore be neutrons created, but bound in the new helium atom and therefor not released.
I cant envisage that a 57th Century power plant in something as small as a Scout/Courier or a Type A1 Free Trader is going to work on the basis of a steam plant. It just appears too clunky - like the power plant in the film Titanic. I might be wrong, of course, maybe steam is able to operate in a relatively efficient manner in a smallish environment (how does the power plant in a nuclear submarine generate power?)
Thanks for the science near fiction bits above - it helps to conceptualise things.
If the heat by product is vented in heat sink wings on the hull how does this affect sensor scans?
Thanks for the science near fiction bits above - it helps to conceptualise things.
If the heat by product is vented in heat sink wings on the hull how does this affect sensor scans?
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
Okay I see where we make different assumptions. For my part, I was thinking that one would use all the hydrogen and not further refine it down to individual isotopes. more fuel that way. While some reactions will occur more readily, under less pressure/temperature, as long as you can use all the hydrogen you got, regardless of isotope, the more power you will get out.
And if you have any impurities, there is a pretty good chance that you will get radiation and secondary activation. So shield your power plants anyway, just in case.
As for cleaning helium out, you are right. There has to be an exhaust vent somewhere. You might be able to recycle the He3 to boost the power out of your reactor, but you still end up with He4 and possibly Li.
So, you are right, there are specific ractions that are neutron free. But relying solely on those reactions would reduce your power output and require far more fuel processing. Not sure its worth it.
And if you have any impurities, there is a pretty good chance that you will get radiation and secondary activation. So shield your power plants anyway, just in case.
As for cleaning helium out, you are right. There has to be an exhaust vent somewhere. You might be able to recycle the He3 to boost the power out of your reactor, but you still end up with He4 and possibly Li.
So, you are right, there are specific ractions that are neutron free. But relying solely on those reactions would reduce your power output and require far more fuel processing. Not sure its worth it.
Don't laugh at helium, it can be a vital asset at times.
Just ask the passengers on the hindenburg. America dominates the worlds helium supplies and we wouldn't sell any to nazi germany.
Good for us, bad news for the hunderburg passengers, then then again anyone flyong on a ship wioh swastikas on it.....
Just ask the passengers on the hindenburg. America dominates the worlds helium supplies and we wouldn't sell any to nazi germany.
Good for us, bad news for the hunderburg passengers, then then again anyone flyong on a ship wioh swastikas on it.....
Or for that matter on any vessel with stars and stripes. The hindenberg crashed in 1937, 2 years before the invasion of Poland.
Say that in a few years time there is a world war involving America, and the Americans loose. What you have just said would be the equivalent of saying that the civilians in the WTC deserved it for working in the USA. (Such an Evil Empire that it is... in hindsight)
For example the only precedent for avoidance of the geneva conventions about "Enemy Combatants" comes from WWII, where allied paratroopers were declared Terrorists and executed out of hand. Good to know that the US is following in someones footsteps.
Say that in a few years time there is a world war involving America, and the Americans loose. What you have just said would be the equivalent of saying that the civilians in the WTC deserved it for working in the USA. (Such an Evil Empire that it is... in hindsight)
For example the only precedent for avoidance of the geneva conventions about "Enemy Combatants" comes from WWII, where allied paratroopers were declared Terrorists and executed out of hand. Good to know that the US is following in someones footsteps.
Even before the invasion of poland nazi germany had made itself a place no civillized person would wan tto deal with thru it's occupations of other countries, it's persecutions of jews and other non-aryans, etc.
And comparing america to nazi germany would offend me, if it wasn't so utterly pathetic....
And comparing america to nazi germany would offend me, if it wasn't so utterly pathetic....
There was a well-written article about fusion reactors in Traveller here:
http://traveller.mu.org/house/fusion.html
The writer prefers the CNO fusion cycle.
http://traveller.mu.org/house/fusion.html
The writer prefers the CNO fusion cycle.
