How important is TL in Traveller space combat?

[robject]

Also, one can require the higher-tech player spend a proportion of their budget at one tech level below their peak, possibly allowing some weapon upgrades to be fitted to older ships.

That was the Islands Campaign in a nutshell. So even GDW knew that HG was not the end product, but rather a tool to use in crafting games.

And even then, Frank Chadwick didn't really use HG (or FFS) when designing his tactical wargames: he used approximations... in other words, the design system went too far for him.

But I see I'm veering off into the bushes. Sorry about that.

 

[McPerth]

Well when the enemy can teleport commandos directly into your facilities (or maybe even teleport in a nuke) it tends to be a force equalizer.

And exactly how does this affect Space combat?

Remember you need to conserve your momentum in teleportation, and ships at high speed, even a small directional vector difference will make enourmous momentum changes, and those ships are assumed to be evading...

And if the enemy ship has no functioning drives (so you may match the vector) Shuttle or EVA assault would be little less effective as teleporting inside for boarding actions.

 

[mike wightman]

Easily explained with a bit of setting handwavium

Inside a ship there are no noticeable momentum changes, the magic acceleration compensators see to that.

So you are teleporting from a momentum change 0 environment to another momentum change 0 environment.

The trick is to get within teleportation range...

 

[McPerth]

Easily explained with a bit of setting handwavium

Inside a ship there are no noticeable momentum changes, the magic acceleration compensators see to that.

So you are teleporting from a momentum change 0 environment to another momentum change 0 environment.

The trick is to get within teleportation range...

Sorry, but I cannot buy this.

If so, the fact that the curvature of the planet avoids (due to momentum change) teleporting too far (as explained in page 44 CT:LBB3) would be also voided, as neither in this case is there any noticiable momentum.

I'd say that teleport boarding is not posible unless the ships are docked (and even there it can be an advantage, as you can appear anywhere in the enemy ship) and no hole would be need that can warn the defenders about where will you appear, but not enough as to count in the strategic picture, asa TL does.

 

[mike wightman]

Of course there is a change of momentum if you teleport on a planet - what I am saying is that in an artificial gravity environment with totally controlled acceleration you are in a momentum change zero bubble.

 

[McPerth]

Of course there is a change of momentum if you teleport on a planet - what I am saying is that in an artificial gravity environment with totally controlled acceleration you are in a momentum change zero bubble.

AFAIK (I'm not an expert in physics), momentum is not gravity dependent. Even things that, being in zero g, are weightess (but not masseless) hold momentum.

 

[the angle]

Inside the ship's gravity-controlled bubble, you don't feel changes to momentum, but the momentum is still there and is still realized in the difference between the motions of the two gravity bubbles (the one you're leaving and the one you're entering). If those two ships collided, energy would be released. Inertial compensators don't just create a static null-energy zone; they must be constantly altering their settings to match the ship's constantly-altering acceleration during evasion. Unless the ship is compensating for exactly the same motion as the ship you're teleporting from at the moment you teleport, there's going to be a momentum difference.

Steve

 

[Limburger59]

As Wil and wbyrd have elegantly summarized, overcoming a +1 TL advantage requires a similarly strong advantage in another area:

* superior strategy
* superior tactics, maybe (but more risky)
* sheer numbers (i.e. twice the numbers)
* "natural analogs" to high technology (e.g. psionic teleportation)

I agree, and I'd add
* superior morale (training, a belief that God is on their side)
* superior leadership (I guess that involves strategy and tactics)
* superior logistics

 

[nobby-w]

TL is important in Traveller space combat, whether by a proxy (Computer Model), table, or directly. So what advantage do you think TL should grant?

A small benefit, as in a DM+1 to hit and a DM+1 to "evade"?

A moderate but not overwhelming benefit?

A commanding benefit, as in near-automatic success?

That +1 to hit and +1 to evade is not a small bonus by any means. For a (say) 8+ roll to hit it morphs the advantaged side to a 58% chance of hitting and the disadvantaged side to 27%. Without adding any benefits to armour or superior weapons that's a 2:1 advantage from a single tech level, more as the base hit roll goes up.

For weapons that have to penetrate (meson guns in particular) there's another similar advantage that stacks on top of it, making it ~4:1

Add in a superior power plant (therefore agility), superior armour, superior weapons, superior screens and that can become an even greater advantage.

It might not look big, but that +1/-1 from computers is about the biggest balance issue in High Guard. If you don't believe me, try running a few (say) TL12 vs. TL13 battles and see just how big a numerical advantage the TL12 side needs to win.

 

[Enoki]

Although this isn't really the case in Traveller, at least as I've noticed, TL should be an exponential curve. An advantage of 1 tech level would be sufficient to produce a significant edge over the previous tech level.

For example: Your opponent has 1930's tanks (TL 5). You have 1945 to 1950 tanks (TL 6). That is a huge advantage for you.

You have a TL 6 (1950's vacuum tube) computer with the equivalent of 4K of memory and it is slow, huge, and cumbersome. A TL 6 late 1970's electronic calculator you can hold in your hand. It has twice the memory and does everything your room full of tubes does.

1 TL is a pretty huge advantage.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, lower tech is cheaper, and you could make up in in numbers what you don't have in quality.

 

[nobby-w]

In theory, lower tech is cheaper, and you could make up in in numbers what you don't have in quality.

It's not cheaper by the factor of 3 or more that you would need to actually balance a 1 TL difference. Note that the fifth frontier war essentially put a TL13 Zhodani Consulate against a TL15 imperium. If you fought the war in terms of the actual balance of High Guard the Zhos would have needed something like a 10:1 numerical advantage to hold their own against the Imperials.

 

[mike wightman]

The Zhos were TL14 during the FFW, there is even an optional rule to reflect the TL difference of the different forces.

And we don't know how many ships make up one counter, in order to get the combat factors on the chits the Zhos may well have to have five times as many ships in a squadron.

And since when was warfare balanced? The whole point is to not start a war unless you think you can win - trying to balance stuff is totally unrealistic.

Note the one campaign we were given for HG2 - TCS. In order to balance the forces most had the same TL and population. The one lower TL world had a population, and hence budget, ten times the size of the others.

 

[robject]

The Zhos were TL14 during the FFW, there is even an optional rule to reflect the TL difference of the different forces.

And we don't know how many ships make up one counter, in order to get the combat factors on the chits the Zhos may well have to have five times as many ships in a squadron.

And since when was warfare balanced? The whole point is to not start a war unless you think you can win - trying to balance stuff is totally unrealistic.

Note the one campaign we were given for HG2 - TCS. In order to balance the forces most had the same TL and population. The one lower TL world had a population, and hence budget, ten times the size of the others.

In the range of TLs used in the Islands Campaign -- was that TL 11 to TL 13? About the range expected during the Barracks Emperors period?

And don't forget that New Home, with a tenth of the typical population, had a 1 TL advantage, but apparently still required the disadvantage of not being able to build hulls above a certain size.


So then, Population Digit is not quite as powerful as TL.

 

[mike wightman]

In the Islands campaign you have five powers with pop 9 TLC, one is TLD but has population 8, and then you have TLB but population A.

 

[Condottiere]

Considering their GDP and construction capacity, Esperanza should have already conquered the Islands.

 

[McPerth]

Considering their GDP and construction capacity, Esperanza should have already conquered the Islands.

Considering that with HG rules, at TL 11:

• your ships must be under 100 kdt, as you maximum computer is 5
• Your meson spinals are limited to A and B, and you have no meson screens
• Your fighters are limited to factor 2-3 wapons, not being able to hit enemy fighters, nor ships under 20 kdt (assuming agility 6 and with the -1 to hit due to computer size)
• Your only factor 9 secondary weapon is 100 dton missile bays, and they need 11+ to hit an enemy TL12 fighter
• With armor 11, a pulse laser damages you on a 6- (so about 40% of Plasers damage you)

I'm not so sure about your conclusión (but off course ,I might be wrong, as I have little true experinece in HG combat among large fletes). This computer difference DM (applied to hit and to penetrate screens) is really harming...

 

[Condottiere]

Esperanza TL B has a population of sixty five billion, budget of seventy one and a half trillion, and a construction capacity of seventy one and a half million tonnes.

Compare that to Amodiage TL C with a population of seven billion, budget of eight and a half trillion, and a construction capacity of eight and a half million tonnes.

 

[McPerth]

Esperanza TL B has a population of sixty five billion, budget of seventy one and a half trillion, and a construction capacity of seventy one and a half million tonnes.

Compare that to Amodiage TL C with a population of seven billion, budget of eight and a half trillion, and a construction capacity of eight and a half million tonnes.

When you cannot hit or damage enemy ships and they can do both on yours, numerical advantage does not affect the equation.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd be very tempted to ask for volunteers and kamikaze the opposition; in the battle of attrition when your industrial capacity is almost ten times greater, I'd also do suicide runs to take out the opponent's industrial capacity.