How to Improve the Kinunir?

[MikeinBallard]

What was it about the KinnyR that made it unacceptable? On the inevitable comment on size (LBB2 vs. LBB5/small vs. large), I like magmagmag's idea of calling it a Destroyer Escort. Does it need armor? Weaponry/screens? Upgraded JD and/or MD? Lose the black globe? Keep the black globe and lose the USMC (Uncle Strephon's Misguided Children) contingent? Should I be looking at the Fer-de-Lance for inspiration? :CoW:

My Traveller ship combat experience was 30 years ago with sub-400 ton ships, so I wouldn't know a good design if it crept up on me and bit my Spinward Marches.

 

[Vladika]

What was it about the KinnyR that made it unacceptable? On the inevitable comment on size (LBB2 vs. LBB5/small vs. large), I like magmagmag's idea of calling it a Destroyer Escort. Does it need armor? Weaponry/screens? Upgraded JD and/or MD? Lose the black globe? Keep the black globe and lose the USMC (Uncle Strephon's Misguided Children) contingent? Should I be looking at the Fer-de-Lance for inspiration? :CoW:

My Traveller ship combat experience was 30 years ago with sub-400 ton ships, so I wouldn't know a good design if it crept up on me and bit my Spinward Marches.

The Kinunir was fine for what it was intended to be: a test bed for the Black Globe generator. Uncle Strephon's Misguided Children were, without doubt, to protect the ship from hostiles intent on a look-see-grab.

Other items were "cover".

It was designed for the small ship universe. HG changed a lot.

 

[Dagrill]

What was it about the KinnyR that made it unacceptable? On the inevitable comment on size (LBB2 vs. LBB5/small vs. large), I like magmagmag's idea of calling it a Destroyer Escort. Does it need armor? Weaponry/screens? Upgraded JD and/or MD? Lose the black globe? Keep the black globe and lose the USMC (Uncle Strephon's Misguided Children) contingent? Should I be looking at the Fer-de-Lance for inspiration? :CoW:

My Traveller ship combat experience was 30 years ago with sub-400 ton ships, so I wouldn't know a good design if it crept up on me and bit my Spinward Marches.

I think it was the mad computer that killed all the crew? Or have I got the wrong plot?

I'd call it a DE, or a Frigate, or a Corvette depending on who it belonged to

Regards

David

 

[mike wightman]

If you want to keep the Kinunir as a HG2 universe battle cruiser then it needs to be redesigned as a 50-70kt ship.

This would make the adventure more like a dungeon crawl through the AHL - come to think of it you could probably re-task the AHL maps to make the Kinunir.

Otherwise you have to retcon it to being a destroyer/escort class vessel as others have suggested.

 

[savage]

If you want to keep the Kinunir as a HG2 universe battle cruiser then it needs to be redesigned as a 50-70kt ship.

This would make the adventure more like a dungeon crawl through the AHL - come to think of it you could probably re-task the AHL maps to make the Kinunir.

Otherwise you have to retcon it to being a destroyer/escort class vessel as others have suggested.

I disagree. Kinunir was Traveller's answer to Starship Troopers. A small vessel for going after local issues and hunting pirates. Some firepower and troop delivery mechanisms. Perhaps a test bed for blackglobes and AI's in the very light cruiser categories. It is spread too thin in it's multi purpose tasking. Redesigning the vessel for 1-2 activities is adequate. We've kicked Kinunir around many times: Military Research/Test Vessel, Missile boat, marine cruiser, or in my case an armored ducal yacht.

 

[Vargr Breath]

Hi
I like the name Colonial Cruiser and think of them more as a Gunboat, like the ones used in China in the 30s. In the later 19th century and early 20th century, gunboats were used by the naval powers for police actions in colonies or to show the flag to weaker countries. Kinunir was more a tool for gunboat diplomacy the a Ship of the Line. Maybe put her in a scenario like the movie "The Sand Pebbles" have a system in revolt with a Colonial Cruiser class ship sent on a rescue mission.

 

[Swiftbrook]

I think the Kinunir is a better Mercenary transport than pure Navy vessel. Dump the black globe and the crazy AI computer and you have a ship that fully support a mercenary platoon. That said, it's 50% more ship than the Broadsword and carries about the same number of troops.

It can also be used in the special ops support roll in the Imperial Navy/Marines, especially with the black globe. With its five drop capsule launch tubes, it fills the role of clandestinely inserting a platoon onto a worlds surface.

 

[The Oz]

It can also be used in the special ops support roll in the Imperial Navy/Marines, especially with the black globe. With its five drop capsule launch tubes, it fills the role of clandestinely inserting a platoon onto a worlds surface.

I've always thought this was the real mission of the Kinunir: covert special ops. With the black globe, getting the troopers down is easy. Getting them back up again, OTOH.....

 

[savage]

I've always thought this was the real mission of the Kinunir: covert special ops. With the black globe, getting the troopers down is easy. Getting them back up again, OTOH.....

So you would have deployed them to military intelligence or a Delta Force?

 

[Garyius2003]

I disagree. Kinunir was Traveller's answer to Starship Troopers. A small vessel for going after local issues and hunting pirates. Some firepower and troop delivery mechanisms. Perhaps a test bed for blackglobes and AI's in the very light cruiser categories. It is spread too thin in it's multi purpose tasking. Redesigning the vessel for 1-2 activities is adequate. We've kicked Kinunir around many times: Military Research/Test Vessel, Missile boat, marine cruiser, or in my case an armored ducal yacht.

The LCS, only with less MD?

 

[savage]

The LCS, only with less MD?

Are you suggesting an LCS design or asking?

Reducing troops apears to be one option. I'd say select one or two things it's good at. Dump the AI (do ya think? ) and perhaps even one or two other features.

The colonial special missions cruiser is a nice fit, other ships do anti-pirate, armored heavy yacht and local missile ship with a j1 for planetary navies.
I did a couple T20 versions long ago. Some people on COTI did R&D which is also a nice idea.

 

[Timerover51]

As I am a small ship universe person, aside from dumping the AI, I have no problems with the ship. Not sure that I would call it a battle cruiser though. Colonial cruiser would be a more accurate description.

 

[MikeinBallard]

The AI would be the first to go, of course. It's interesting that Eurisko proved the trope of the unstable AI e.g. HAL in 2001 and the Kinunir's helpful friend. It was not so much that Eurisko was unstable, rather that human life was never part of the equation. I was thinking of running A1:Kinunir with some modifications:

* The Adda Dubsar is missing drives, pp, sensors, screens, and computer, but is in good shape otherwise. It's been shrink wrapped like the planes at the Tuscon, AZ boneyard.
* When the PC's are caught investigating it, they are detained. They receive a visit from Duke Norris who asks them to obtain the contents of the Captain's safe. He gives them the fuel data and tells them they can have the Dubby's hull if they can deliver. If they ask about the contents of the safe, he gives them his best Alan Rickman impression "Do. Not. Ask. Again."
* The AI's on the Kinunir class all have different personalities as they were learning systems. The AI on the Kinunir is called "Sirii". It was programmed and instructed by a subsidiary of Naasirka called Apaal. Play up the Douglas Adamsy peril.
* If the Dubbby is fed the corpse of a Gazelle, it would push it to Jump-2, Maneuver-2, if I'm not mistaken. A captured pirate XT would push it to Jump-1, Maneuver-1. There may be problems with the setup of course. I think a female Aslan voice shouting random system statuses at odd times might be fun.

But, don't get me started on the buggy nuclear damper software programmed by Monolithic Systems on New Washington. They tended to overload the defenses with an electric, cerulean flash that gained the dampers the moniker the "Blue Screen of Death"...

Savage, do you have the links to the R&D discussions? If not, I can do some more site archeology. A search on "Kinunir" comes up with many, many results.

 

[savage]

Savage, do you have the links to the R&D discussions? If not, I can do some more site archeology. A search on "Kinunir" comes up with many, many results.

I like your flake AI suggestions. IMTU the players rescue one of the developers of the AI program, and work with avatars from time to time. These surprises can be fun, intimidating, and entertaining.

One of the early discussions was a bit more bloody than this one. The old "I hate the Kinunir argument." Sorry, to say i do not have it. I do not know that the R&D version has ever been published by a ref. Only comments...

I have the T20 colonial and a planetary navy hvy patrol/missile boat version on my website. I have not published the armored yacht for the Duke with enemies.

Is the T5 Kinunir still 1250dt? Does anyone know?

 

[lostscout5]

One of the thoughts I had about the Kinunir, back in the day, was for a ship of it's size and stated mission it should only have J3. With a ship in that size class it's hard to fit enough in the hull to be really multi purpose, and still J4. Since it spends so much of it's time on the borders working with the reserve fleets it doesn't really need J4. If it needed to keep up with the regular navy squadrons as an escort it would need J4. If you reduce to J3 you get all that tonnage to use for more troops, ship's vehicles, armor, ect. It may not have the strategic mobility anymore, but it will be more capable when it get's there.

 

[MikeinBallard]

If it doesn't have a 'Fleet' designation, the Jump-4 requirement disappears. You could then have Jump-3. You could then armor it, paint it flat black, sawtooth all joints/transitions, install the EMS masking (though it would still look like a flare in the middle of a moonless night in IR -- don't ask), keep the drop capsules/drones/decoys, and ignore the suggestions from the onboard AI to 'just try the wood alcohol, it's tasty; no just kidding!', and all is good!

It's a 1250-ton canvas.

 

[Hyphen]

As I am a small ship universe person, aside from dumping the AI, I have no problems with the ship. Not sure that I would call it a battle cruiser though. Colonial cruiser would be a more accurate description.

Been there, added that. See Cruiser in my Library Data.

 

[rancke]

One of the thoughts I had about the Kinunir, back in the day, was for a ship of it's size and stated mission it should only have J3. With a ship in that size class it's hard to fit enough in the hull to be really multi purpose, and still J4. Since it spends so much of it's time on the borders working with the reserve fleets it doesn't really need J4. If it needed to keep up with the regular navy squadrons as an escort it would need J4. If you reduce to J3 you get all that tonnage to use for more troops, ship's vehicles, armor, ect. It may not have the strategic mobility anymore, but it will be more capable when it get's there.

I don't see any need to improve the Kinunir. Some ship designs are just not very good. If we adjust the background of the powerful capital ship that was fully a quarter the size of the biggest warships in the universe and had a production run of 24! (count them!) to that of an insignificant little pipsqueak of a ship one eighth of a percent of the biggest ship around that had a production run of a measly 24, and add that it carries TWO experimental devices, the whole thing screams R&D to me. And that in turn means design by committee, funding problems, project revisions and all that.

So if youy want an improved Kinunir, my suggestion would be to make your improvements and then name this NEW AND DIFFERENT design something else, like the Scarabaeus class light destroyer (Named after beetles).

Some changes are admittedly necessary to fit the Kinunir into the post-HG OTU (Which isn't so much a large ship universe as a trillions-of-people-can-afford-way-more ships-than-that universe -- HG accomodates both small and large ships). The subject has been discussed quite a lot here on CotI. If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, you'll a small list of similar topics. The top one will probably be of interest.


Hans

 

[shield]

Let's face it, in HG2 terms it is a gunboat designed to show the flag, kill pirates and allow surgical interventions as needed.

The high computer, nuke missiles and particle beams allow it to kill the standard corsair very easily and the troops / vehicles allow for boarding / planetary raids. The nuclear damper does provide additional protection if some planetary govt or starmerc / pirate thinks a nuclear missile is an ace in the hole.

Improvements:
1 Replace the dual laser turrets with triple turrets and optimise the layout / number of laser batteries and use the spare turret slots for additional missile racks or sandcasters.

Like most imperial vessels of this size, it's defence is not to get hit (high computer, + agility + small size) and then use active defences (screens, sand, anti-missile lasers) to stop the lucky shot that actual hit. Its the same design premise as the Fer De Lance, and Chry DEs and the valor missile corvette.

2 Swap the 3 air/rafts for another APC or a G carrier and military air/rafts

3) Major improvement - build another booster power plant in the hold to give you a bit more agility.

 

[rancke]

Let's face it, in HG2 terms it is a gunboat designed to show the flag, kill pirates and allow surgical interventions as needed.

Yes, that's how the admirals in charge of the research projects sold it to the dukes of Glisten and Regina.


Hans