How to Improve the Kinunir?

[savage]

Improvements:
1 Replace the dual laser turrets with triple turrets and optimise the layout / number of laser batteries and use the spare turret slots for additional missile racks or sandcasters.

Like most imperial vessels of this size, it's defence is not to get hit (high computer, + agility + small size) and then use active defences (screens, sand, anti-missile lasers) to stop the lucky shot that actual hit. Its the same design premise as the Fer De Lance, and Chry DEs and the valor missile corvette.

2 Swap the 3 air/rafts for another APC or a G carrier and military air/rafts

3) Major improvement - build another booster power plant in the hold to give you a bit more agility.

These are all reasonable comments. The problem has been that the Kinunir arguments have always fallen into 2 answers; 1. Redesign from scratch 2. Modify the existing design and continue building. The reason the argument continues is that its a ref's choice on how he/she manages ship design in the game.
In the real world we look at cost evaluations. As part of the analysis we determine if it's more effective, and less expensive to design from scatch. Start all over again or modify the ship. They did this when they looked at usefulness of 1940s battleships and older boomers.
In the Kinunir adventure, they didn't complain much about the hull, electronics, weapons suites... etc.. Most of the complaints were about the computer going nuts and it's multi-mission capability not being effective. Reasonable improvements in this case are acceptable. Go kill pirates, Zho spies, etc. When the changes are done can it take out a heavy pirate ship like a 1kdt liner or merc cruiser convert? That is when the rubber hits the road.

 

[rancke]

These are all reasonable comments. The problem has been that the Kinunir arguments have always fallen into 2 answers; 1. Redesign from scratch 2. Modify the existing design and continue building.

3. Justify the existing design and leave it alone.


Hans

 

[savage]

3. Justify the existing design and leave it alone.


Hans

Refs seem to believe the existing design is flawed. Even a great poduct that get's bad press from one mistake will get a marketing twist. Essentially, I agree that is a third option. However, I dismissed it through human nature.
For the Kinunir class, the admiralty would tweek the class. Put into field conditions for proof of concept and market the improvements.

The Kinunir herself, probably would be mothballed, canabalized by the navy.

 

[rancke]

Refs seem to believe the existing design is flawed. Even a great poduct that get's bad press from one mistake will get a marketing twist. Essentially, I agree that is a third option. However, I dismissed it through human nature.

I refer you to post 18 of this thread where I justify a flawed design through human nature¹.

¹ Namely: The Kinunir class was an R&D project designed by several committees and rife with funding problems, revisions, compromises, etc..​

For the Kinunir class, the admiralty would tweek the class. Put into field conditions for proof of concept and market the improvements.

Why? 24 1250T ships is a mere blip on the IN budget. The admiralty² would probably never hear about it (It would get the reports, but they'd never come to their attention).

² Assuming you're talking about the Admiralty at Capital; the Spinward Marches Sector Command would hear of it. And bury the scandal as fast as possible.​

The Kinunir herself, probably would be mothballed, canibalized by the navy.

Why throw away a perfectly useful asset? Its flaw is that it could be better, not that it doesn't work. Besides, keeping the Kinunirs in service proves ("PROVES, I tell you!") that it wasn't a flawed design.


Hans

 

[lostscout5]

Another point to consider is that ship classes change with time. The 1st ship of any class is a prototype. They make small tweaks to the follow up ships based on what they learned from the 1st. Mostly they are small changes that wouldn't really show up in a ships stats. "We need to move that pipe 4 inches to the left, that wiring bundle in compartment 16 is redundant, ect...". But some times they make major changes within a class. Take the Los Angeles class attack sub's. The 1st 40 or so had 4 torpedo tubes. But the last 20 or so had 12 vertical launch tubes added. Some of the older ship's had the launch tubes retro fitted and some were scrapped. That's a pretty major change. Guess they had some unused hard points in the original design.

Beside if I remember correctly {not likely } during the rebellion they started building new kinunir"s.

 

[savage]

I refer you to post 18 of this thread where I justify a flawed design through human nature¹.

¹ Namely: The Kinunir class was an R&D project designed by several committees and rife with funding problems, revisions, compromises, etc..​

Why throw away a perfectly useful asset? Its flaw is that it could be better, not that it doesn't work. Besides, keeping the Kinunirs in service proves ("PROVES, I tell you!") that it wasn't a flawed design.


Hans

Not every over budget project is a dismal failure. It can just indicate a need for new leadership, this is the navy, to meet the original requirement.

Sure, if they spun out the Kinunir itself with a refit that would justify the line. However, this is the navy. The crew died performing their duties. It might be considered a grave site and be memorialized. If the Admiralty can spin anything, it would probably justify the heroes that supported a 3I mission, mothball the original, and skirt along the real problem.

Unless, of course, the PCs find a way to keep it, "Sir, we believe we can do a minor refit and prove this design with this ship."

Kinunir is seen in future versions of Traveller, indicating the design was completed.

 

[rancke]

Not every over budget project is a dismal failure. It can just indicate a need for new leadership, this is the navy, to meet the original requirement.

You seem to be refuting a claim I didn't make, although I can't be sure because I'm not quite sure what you're refuting.

Sure, if they spun out the Kinunir itself with a refit that would justify the line. However, this is the navy. The crew died performing their duties. It might be considered a grave site and be memorialized. If the Admiralty can spin anything, it would probably justify the heroes that supported a 3I mission, mothball the original, and skirt along the real problem.

Same problem.

Unless, of course, the PCs find a way to keep it, "Sir, we believe we can do a minor refit and prove this design with this ship."

And once more.

Kinunir is seen in future versions of Traveller, indicating the design was completed.

Of course it was completed. The design was completed, 24 of them were ordered, and 20 of them were built. It says so in The Kinunir, p. 10. And then they were not continued. One was scrapped, three were cancelled, and then no more were ordered. A successful design would have been followed up with more orders. No more orders indicates a failed design¹. The Imperial Navy tends to build its ships by the hundreds.

¹ Or a clandestine project completed, successfully or not as the case may be.​

What are you trying to say? You've lost me completely.


Hans

 

[savage]

You seem to be refuting a claim I didn't make, although I can't be sure because I'm not quite sure what you're refuting.


Of course it was completed. The design was completed, 24 of them were ordered, and 20 of them were built. It says so in The Kinunir, p. 10. And then they were not continued. One was scrapped, three were cancelled, and then no more were ordered. A successful design would have been followed up with more orders. No more orders indicates a failed design¹. The Imperial Navy tends to build its ships by the hundreds.


What are you trying to say? You've lost me completely.


Hans

Simply stated. Your arguement has holes because the text in Kinunir is not conclusive. It never states the admiralties long term decisions, the options for the players relating to the ship, or whether the line could be eventually restarted. IMO, it leaves it open to the ref intentionally.

 

[rancke]

Simply stated. Your arguement has holes because the text in Kinunir is not conclusive.

Thanks for explaining. I never would have gotten that from your original remarks.

My argument is valid precisely because it fits with the inconclusive text in The Kinunir. That doesn't mean that other interpretations could not be equally valid. I'm just saying that mine works; it fixes some of the rifts torn into the background by the shift from a small-and-few-ships universe to a small-to-large-and-plenty-of-them-ship universe, thus making for a better, more self-consistent game universe.

It never states the admiralties long term decisions, the options for the players relating to the ship, or whether the line could be eventually restarted.

It's a 44 page booklet format. Of course there are lots of things that are not stated (Though the fact that the Kinunirs were discontinued in 1089 and hadn't been restarted by 1105 isn't one of them).

IMO, it leaves it open to the ref intentionally.

IMO it leaves the things it didn't say open for future Traveller writers to develop, not intentionally but because of a limited word count.

And, incidentally, since I'm not an official Traveller writer doing his stuff right now, I'm actually doing exactly what you say the booklet intentionally left things open for me to do.

I think I'll repeat one of the things I said above, because for some reason you appear to be under the mistaken impression that I'm laying down the law rather than just suggesting a possibility:

That doesn't mean that other interpretations could not be equally valid.​

Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

As I am a small ship universe person, aside from dumping the AI, I have no problems with the ship. Not sure that I would call it a battle cruiser though. Colonial cruiser would be a more accurate description.

The thing is, most worlds have 500,000 people or less. Bringing the Hammer of the Emperor down on such worlds really doesn't take much more than a Kinunir.

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

Sifu peeks in...

I liked the Kinunir. Those Marines kicked ass in several boarding actions in a game I refereed some years ago.

IMTU the frontier sectors are a 'small ship' universe, Bk 2
Capital Sector (Terra) and core sectors have the Bk 5 stuff.

The only change I would make is to make the whole thing 2000 tons.

 

[GypsyComet]

The only change I would make is to make the whole thing 2000 tons.

That's the Sydkai, basically.

 

[Orr]

However you improve the Kinunir it will depend on which of the several ship design systems you use. That being said, the vessel does seem to be under gunned even for a Book 2 design.

 

[savage]

However you improve the Kinunir it will depend on which of the several ship design systems you use. That being said, the vessel does seem to be under gunned even for a Book 2 design.

True IMO. But those few words of bad rep have resulted in many alterations.
The multi-purpose intended a few hundred extra ton make a nice difference.

The Sydkai appears to be the replacement for the Kinunir. A competing design, perhaps we really don't know a lot of details about her other than stats and the ridiculous discussion of the bridge location.

 

[rancke]

The Sydkai appears to be the replacement for the Kinunir. A competing design, perhaps we really don't know a lot of details about her other than stats and the ridiculous discussion of the bridge location.

That's not even the most ridiculous thing about the color text. And I'm not so much talking about the claim that corsairs were a problem too hard for the Imperial forces to deal with even before the FFW kicked in (that is, after all, a logical ramification of the trouble corsairs are supposed to be after the Rebellion began), but about the proposition that if the forces available to the Imperium weren't enough to handle the corsairs, adding a handful of 2000T ships would have fixed that.

The text states that the navy's Kinunirs, Fierys, Gazelles, and Lurushaar Kilaalums¹ were incapable of doing the job. Apparently there were no Chrysanthemums, Fer-de-Lances, Sloans, or any of the other escort class vessels that haven't yet been documented around either. :nonono:

¹ What are those, BTW? Where were they written up?​

So instead of ordering a gross of Chrysanthemums to be delivered as soon as possible, the navy ordered six Sydkais to be delivered over a six year period. Nothing wrong with ordering a small batch of prototypes to test before committing to a useful number of the new class (you know, several squadrons worth at a minimum). The IN can afford to take its time and Do It Right. It's not like there is an urgent problem to be dealt with.

Oh, wait...


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Lurushaar Kilaalums¹

¹ What are those, BTW? Where were they written up?​

Lurushaar Kilaalum is the "proper" name of the Type-T 400dton Patrol Cruiser Class (class name first mentioned by FASA, I believe).

 

[Orr]

I guess sometimes the fluff is just that, fluff. Best you ignore it or you'll go crazy.

 

[savage]

That's not even the most ridiculous thing about the color text.

Hans

Colored text?

As mentioned earlier, I went with a missile cruiser in one of my Kinunir variants. That "up guns" it nicely, you're still bringing up a good question.
"Why so many ships?" How can we figure out how to improve a design if we don't know where it fits into the scheme of things?

Traveller did a poor job of describing the variations in ship designs and their purpose. I think part of that is not considering the longevity of the discussions and ramifications. They were designing a few campaigns, local player sessions, but not an empire. Today, partially thanks to players on COTI/MgT/GT, we see a better wiki discussion and a more structured imperium. There seems to be a desire to replace DGP with modernized, fully available background. Let's face it, they held up the flame as best possible for many years.

The classic ships from CT:FS really lack details and that causes some grief when we look at other designs that have had better follow up in articles, etc.
The 5kdt fleet tender is a good example of GDW taking an FS design and adding more details in Challenger. We didn't see a lot of that unfortunately.

I responded to this thread because I liked the question. What can be done better with this design. Not the usual negative spin.

If we look at all those CT:FS designs we really miss the opportunity to create mature fiction products. For example, was the AHL an early TL14 design or late. How many destroyer types does the US produce at a specific TL? The answer is more than one. Sometime the purpose varies, but often there are improvement that they can account for...

The bottom line is that the Kinunir was addressing a purpose that other ships were not fulfilling, per the 3I admiralty. Otherwise, they never would have built one. Clearly, Chrysanthemum, Patrol Ships, Sloans, etc... Were not colonial cruisers built to regularly operate outside the Imperium alone or in small units.

 

[GypsyComet]

Lurushaar Kilaalum is the "proper" name of the Type-T 400dton Patrol Cruiser Class (class name first mentioned by FASA, I believe).

The best known of the Type T's at a particular TL, at least.

Just like the Beowulf is the most common Type A, but not the only Type A.

 

[whulorigan]

The best known of the Type T's at a particular TL, at least.

Just like the Beowulf is the most common Type A, but not the only Type A.

Yes. I believe GURPS Traveller had a number of different variants at various TLs with different class names for each (and a different internal configuration as well).
The Lurushaar Kilaalum was TL12 under CT/FASA, and TL15 under MT.