How to Improve the Kinunir?

[Vladika]

Lurushaar Kilaalum is the "proper" name of the Type-T 400dton Patrol Cruiser Class (class name first mentioned by FASA, I believe).

robject seems to have a different take on that. (500dt)

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=31134

But then it's either TL10
http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/shipyard/kilaalum.html


or TL15

http://www.trisen.com/sol/ship.asp?Topic=10&Page=25&iClass=LURUSH&iType=T

http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/CT-Conversions-T20/Lurushaar_Kilaalum_PC.html

 

[rancke]

Colored text?

The background information added to the stats. Am I using the wrong term? Or using the term incorrectly?

I responded to this thread because I liked the question. What can be done better with this design. Not the usual negative spin.

I have no objection to people designing a better 1250T destroyer escort. I just don't see any good reason to call it a Kinunir class and some very good reasons to refrain from doing so.

If we look at all those CT:FS designs we really miss the opportunity to create mature fiction products. For example, was the AHL an early TL14 design or late.

Late. Very late. 991 is a time when the Imperium is reaching TL15. The AHLs may have been the last new TL14 cruiser design built by the IN.

How many destroyer types does the US produce at a specific TL? The answer is more than one. Sometime the purpose varies, but often there are improvement that they can account for...

Um... I agree. There must be many designs that we haven't heard about.

The bottom line is that the Kinunir was addressing a purpose that other ships were not fulfilling, per the 3I admiralty.

I very much doubt that the Imperium's Admiralty had anything to do with the decision to build a small ship with a production run of 24, all in the same sector, except possibly to sign off on the decision (though even that is not necessarily so). I think the decision would have been made at Spinward Marches Sector HQ.

Otherwise, they never would have built one.

Of course someone had a purpose in building the Kinunirs. And I'm suggesting that the purpose could have been to provide test beds for prototype TL15 black globes reverse-engineered by a research team under the Spinward Marches Sector Command.

Clearly, Chrysanthemum, Patrol Ships, Sloans, etc... Were not colonial cruisers built to regularly operate outside the Imperium alone or in small units.

Why is that so clear? To me Chrysanthemums, Fer-de-Lances, and Sloans all appear to be just as qualified to operate inside and outside the Imperium as Kinunirs.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

I have no objection to people designing a better 1250T destroyer escort. I just don't see any good reason to call it a Kinunir class and some very good reasons to refrain from doing so.
Hans

Hi Hans,

look at the development of the Broadsword (Type 22 class) pre & post Falklands, amazing how a bit of combat experience changes the armaments of a ship & even the size, yet the were still referred to as the Broadsword class, or Type 22, batch1, 2, 3 by pedants & Janes.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

The Sydkai appears to be the replacement for the Kinunir. A competing design, perhaps we really don't know a lot of details about her other than stats and the ridiculous discussion of the bridge location.

Hi,

the Mongoose Deneb Sydkai? If so a competing design from an adjacent Sector.

I can't see a problem with the bridge location lots of Imperium Traveller warships deck-plans have the bridge at the front and on top?

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

The thing is, most worlds have 500,000 people or less. Bringing the Hammer of the Emperor down on such worlds really doesn't take much more than a Kinunir.

True, also IMTU the Aslan conquered Delta Theta with an Ihatei fleet led by a Halaheike (1,200 ton pocket warship), a similar sized ship.

Kind regards

David

 

[rancke]

look at the development of the Broadsword (Type 22 class) pre & post Falklands, amazing how a bit of combat experience changes the armaments of a ship & even the size, yet the were still referred to as the Broadsword class, or Type 22, batch1, 2, 3 by pedants & Janes.

I was under the impression that the proposal was to come up with a revised and improved design for the Kinunir class and then pretend that they had all been like that from the start (which is what a retcon amounts to: pretending that the changed bit had been always been like that).

If the proposal is to come up with a new design and establish that the navy ordered a new production run (no. 9436 and up) some time after 1105, my objections goes away.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

I was under the impression that the proposal was to come up with a revised and improved design for the Kinunir class and then pretend that they had all been like that from the start (which is what a retcon amounts to: pretending that the changed bit had been always been like that).

If the proposal is to come up with a new design and establish that the navy ordered a new production run (no. 9436 and up) some time after 1105, my objections goes away.

Hans

Personally I like your reasoning in post 18, it's a ship designed by committee for R&D and sold as a border patrol unit to the treasury (or whoever funds it in the OTU, I don't actually have the book anymore another casualty of moving.

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

The thing is, most worlds have 500,000 people or less. Bringing the Hammer of the Emperor down on such worlds really doesn't take much more than a Kinunir.

Or a Chrysanthemum.

Though one might not be enough. Depending on the tech level, half a million people could be able to afford enough of a system defense force to give a Kinunir problems.¹

¹ Something like equal odds until and unless one invokes that mysterious advantage that planetary defenses seem to have that enabled Jewell and Efate to hold out against a siege for months and years.​

Hans

 

[robject]

the Mongoose Deneb Sydkai?

(Side Note: the Sydkai in MGT's Deneb book is a port from MegaTraveller)


It has not occurred to me that the Sydkai and Kinunir may be local designs; the former for Deneb, the latter for the Marches, both having their own [likely political] purposes for existing. It is possible, and even a good and interesting idea.

 

[GypsyComet]

I'm generally in favor of Type definitions being pretty universal, but their interpretations ("classes") being local. The same can apply to Naval contracts, giving us the Kinunir in one sector or domain and the Sydkai in another. Other regions would have different answers as well.

Only a few classes are truly universal, having sprung from Vilani designs and under construction for most of the last 6000 years. The Hero/Beowulf and "Fat Trader" hulls are the two best known of these, and dominate their Types as a result. There are a LOT of Type A interpretations out there, and I see no problem with that.

I tend to approach the Sulieman as either regional, temporal, or both, though it may still dominate the Type S population in the 1100s. Gateway Domain had its own Type S only a century earlier (T20), the early Imperium had something entirely different (that we know little about, given the hack job done on the Scout in T4), and there have been others (Mongoose's and the Serpent, for starters).

 

[savage]

(Side Note: the Sydkai in MGT's Deneb book is a port from MegaTraveller)


It has not occurred to me that the Sydkai and Kinunir may be local designs; the former for Deneb, the latter for the Marches, both having their own [likely political] purposes for existing. It is possible, and even a good and interesting idea.

Except the Sydkai is MT and post-dates the Kinunir. DGP, if i recall.

 

[savage]

If the proposal is to come up with a new design and establish that the navy ordered a new production run (no. 9436 and up) some time after 1105, my objections goes away.


Hans

That is what I did IMTU. And i was under the assumption that this is a post-Kinunir incident discussion.

 

[GypsyComet]

Except the Sydkai is MT and post-dates the Kinunir. DGP, if i recall.

By a bit. The Sydkai dates from 1100-1104 or so, according to its article. The Kinunirs were in production from 1074 to 1089.

 

[rancke]

It has not occurred to me that the Sydkai and Kinunir may be local designs; the former for Deneb, the latter for the Marches, both having their own [likely political] purposes for existing. It is possible, and even a good and interesting idea.

The Sydkai was ordered by the Spinward Marches Fleet Admiralty in 1102 (all 12 of them). And their completion was delayed until 1114¹. They wouldn't have been in existence in 1105, let alone deployed in Deneb.

¹ Just why it took more than five years to construct a bunch of 2000T ships so that the 5FW could interrupt construction is not explained.​

Presumably the Deneb Admiralty would have come up with their own solution to the Vargr corsair "problem". Like deploying their Gazelles in half-squadrons and their Chrysanthemums and Fer-de-Lances in divisions, more than enough to handle the typical corsair ship (especially given the big advantage national ships have always had over pirates).


Hans

 

[rancke]

By a bit. The Sydkai dates from 1100-1104 or so, according to its article. The Kinunirs were in production from 1074 to 1089.

Ordered in 1102. Five years later four of them were partly completed when the 5FW interrupted construction. Construction of those four resumed after the war and the first of them (the Sydkai) finished in 1114.


Hans

 

[savage]

The Sydkai learned from the Kinunir design. Since, other games T20, TNE have documented Kinunir for different timelines, there is no reason to assume production was not restarted.

Consider this non-canon option. IMTU, General Shipyards sells the Kinunir design and all rights. The ship is put into production with changes by another company focusing on Colonial markets.
The Sydkai becomes the "go to" ship for Deneb and Marches.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Sydkai learned from the Kinunir design. Since, other games T20, TNE have documented Kinunir for different timelines, there is no reason to assume production was not restarted.

IMTU, General Shipyards sells the Kinunir design and all rights. The ship is put into production with changes by another company focusing on Colonial markets.
The Sydkai becomes the "go to" ship for Deneb and Marches.

Where in T20? That edition is set 100 years before CT and 70 years before the Kinunirs are built, not to mention seven sectors away. Taking that at something close to face value suggests the hull has been around for a while, if not always filled the same way.

 

[savage]

Where in T20? That edition is set 100 years before CT and 70 years before the Kinunirs are built, not to mention seven sectors away. Taking that at something close to face value suggests the hull has been around for a while, if not always filled the same way.

Thanks GC. I'm working off memory. I know I pulled it from a couple locations before adding it imtu but that was not really the point of the comment.

 

[rancke]

The Sydkai learned from the Kinunir design. Since, other games T20, TNE have documented Kinunir for different timelines...

I don't think they have, actually.

...there is no reason to assume production was not restarted.

None at all. No reason to suppose it was either. And no way to say for sure one way or the other until and unless some official writer of official Third Imperium setting material tells us.

Consider this non-canon option. IMTU, General Shipyards sells the Kinunir design and all rights. The ship is put into production with changes by another company focusing on Colonial markets.

You can do what you like in your own TU. But then, of course, there's no point in discussing it, because in your TU, you decide.

My own interest is pretty much limited to the OTU (and my own TU, of course).

The Sydkai becomes the "go to" ship for Deneb and Marches.

As far as canon says there were only four Sydkais produced in all. :devil:

(There could have been more, but we have no way of knowing.)


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

I don't think they have, actually.

IIRC, a *very* Kinunir-like ship is in either the Brilliant Lances or Battle Rider counter set.