MGT Only: How to model high strength entites (archive/lock after 5/10/2019)

[Winged Cat]

Matt and I were discussing some material I wrote for JTAS defining the "collopha": a 100,000 ton land animal, which is specifically supposed to be able to haul crashed spaceships to a downport, and its game stats. One of the questions was, what level of Athletics (strength) should it have? He agreed to let me crowdsource it - so I turn the question to you.

This is only about the game mechanics. "How can such a large creature exist" is off-topic for this thread: this is also setting up how a robot this large, or any other non-ship/vehicle this large, would be reflected in game mechanics. It is suspected that this article may be cited as precedent for how to handle other large things in Mongoose's ruleset, such as construction equipment at a starport.

As this is needed for something intended for publication soon, I request an exception to the normal policy of this forum and ask that discussion end next Friday, May 10th 2019. At least, discussion that will matter for defining what goes into this specific JTAS article.

 

[atpollard]

A man can pull a railroad train car on level tracks ... the issue is force necessary to overcome friction. If the crashed spaceship can be lifted with an air cushion or grav plate to generate no drag, then it requires very little strength. If a 1000 dTon Starship crashed on it’s belly and is being dragged across the ground like a house, then the force required is almost unimaginable (from a biological/mechanical perspective). If it has wheels, then it falls between those two extremes.

So do you have more details on exactly what you propose?

 

[atpollard]

As a starting point, Draft animals can pull logs weighing about half their body weight.

A 1600 lb horse can pull a 750 lb log.
A 5 ton elephant can pull a 3 ton log.

Your 100,000 ton animal should be able to drag a 50,000 ton “log”.

(If you are interested, logging animals are changed out every 1/4 mile.)

 

[Winged Cat]

Even with a grav plate, a single human could not move a 100 ton ship (let alone a 100,000 ton ship) at any significant speed. But I am thinking a grav sled would often be used (especially for larger spacecraft), with one of the challenges being to haul the wreck onto the sled in the first place.

What about ranking Gigantic? Gigantic 1 (which anything with just "Gigantic" has) could carry about 100 tons with no effort, 200 tons with a Bane to physical actions, and push or pull (with a sled for long distances) up to 1,000 tons. Each level multiplies this 10-fold. Each level also multiplies Hits, damage, and Armour (if any) by 10, and applies any other differences between Spaceship scale (which Gigantic 1 things exist at) and Ground scale. (For instance, a Traveller gets DM+2 to hit a spacecraft or a Gigantic 1 thing, and so gets DM+4 to hit a Gigantic 2 thing. Likewise, just as spacecraft and Gigantic 1 things ignore AP from Ground scale weapons, Gigantic 2 things ignore AP from Spacecraft scale weapons.)

 

[mike wightman]

I can understand how in a science fantasy setting you can have any sized land animal you like, but in a setting based on science fiction there are limits to how large an animal can get to. Dune's sandworms are another example of fantastic beasts in a science fiction setting, but at least their ecology is explained. Food, water and oxygen limits and all that.

That said to model such a creature do what the vehicle and ship rules do - use a different scale with a conversion factor.

The normal rules cater for normal animals, so for the really big stuff you want a really big scale. Such megafauna would interact with each other - and starships - on the same scale, but against normal sized creatures/vehicles they would inflict much more damage.

If you want stats then add a not that STR and END are megascale. I'd have to tinker to get the scaling right.

edit - yup something like your gigantic scaling would work, it allows for different tiers of megafauna:
normal scale - up to dino sized and just a little bit bigger (note ocean dwelling creatures can be much larger than land based stuff)
mega - sandworm and up
giga - your proposed beastie

 

[Winged Cat]

I can understand how in a science fantasy setting you can have any sized land animal you like, but in a setting based on science fiction there are limits to how large an animal can get to. Dune's sandworms are another example of fantastic beasts in a science fiction setting, but at least their ecology is explained. Food, water and oxygen limits and all that.

Rest assured, the article (within what limited length there is) pays some attention to this.

But this thread is about the game mechanics.

That said to model such a creature do what the vehicle and ship rules do - use a different scale with a conversion factor.

Yeah, this seems to be the consensus so far. Given what I posted, the collopha would be Gigantic 4.

 

[aramis]

Assigning standard character physical attributes to anything past about 1000 kg is going to get silly results.

 

[Timerover51]

Assigning standard character physical attributes to anything past about 1000 kg is going to get silly results.

Which is why I start using square, cube, and quad roots for increases.

Also, how built up is the typical area around one of your starports when this beastie appears dragging your space ship through the area. At a first approximation I come up with something about 1000 feet or so long, at least 100 feet wide, and about 100 feet tall. If wider than 100 feet, the creature can be lower. As it is, it is going to leave one enormous trail behind it.

Have you really thought this through, with all of the implications of such a creature in a game?

 

[Timerover51]

Assigning standard character physical attributes to anything past about 1000 kg is going to get silly results.

Which is why I start using square, cube, and quad roots for increases.

Also, how built up is the typical area around one of your starports when this beastie appears dragging your space ship through the area. At a first approximation I come up with something about 1000 feet or so long, at least 100 feet wide, and about 100 feet tall. If wider than 100 feet, the creature can be lower. As it is, it is going to leave one enormous trail behind it.

Have you really thought this through, with all of the implications of such a creature in a game?

 

[mike wightman]

I very much doubt he can explain how it gets enough food, water and oxygen, how it moves its own mass without breaking its own body apart etc. without a totally implausible handwave.
A quick google of the physical limit to land animal size throws up some pretty inescapable physics - energy requirements, heat management, etc.

 

[kilemall]

I very much doubt he can explain how it gets enough food, water and oxygen, how it moves its own mass without breaking its own body apart etc. without a totally implausible handwave.
A quick google of the physical limit to land animal size throws up some pretty inescapable physics - energy requirements, heat management, etc.

Hmm, low grav/high atmo worlds might produce larger animals then our mix of grav and energy/heat exchange/structural issues.


Maybe in tandem with gigantic airsacs, so it's part blimp? Methane-based atmo, separates out the hydrogen for the sacs then 'burns' it on exhale for internal fuel?

 

[coliver988]

And high oxygen: one reason posited for megafauna of the past was a much higher percentage of oxygen.

See: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/big-mammals-evolved-thank/

See: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/08/110808-ancient-insects-bugs-giants-oxygen-animals-science/

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Matt and I were discussing some material I wrote for JTAS defining the "collopha": a 100,000 ton land animal, which is specifically supposed to be able to haul crashed spaceships to a downport, and its game stats.

Sounds nifty.

I have no idea how to make it work within existing game mechanics. I can think on it.

Sounds like it might be better to design it as a vehicle.

 

[whartung]

A man can pull a railroad train car on level tracks

Stopping it, however, is a different problem.

 

[aramis]

Stopping it, however, is a different problem.

not really; given enough distance, he can. Whether or not that's practical is a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I very much doubt he can explain how it gets enough food, water and oxygen, how it moves its own mass without breaking its own body apart etc. without a totally implausible handwave.
A quick google of the physical limit to land animal size throws up some pretty inescapable physics - energy requirements, heat management, etc.

Skip the handwave, I want a herd of those things. Organically-grown bonded superdense exoskeleton or bones, no idea what the muscles are made of but there's GOT to be a market for that... vascular system running at some astonishing pressures...

What TL can you grow them at?

Oh, and don't worry about heat management. This is Traveller, after all. We don't DO heat management.

 

[RandyB]

Skip the handwave, I want a herd of those things. Organically-grown bonded superdense exoskeleton or bones, no idea what the muscles are made of but there's GOT to be a market for that... vascular system running at some astonishing pressures...

What TL can you grow them at?

Oh, and don't worry about heat management. This is Traveller, after all. We don't DO heat management.

Space Opera, not hard SF. Yep.:CoW:

 

[mike wightman]

Well the pdf with this beast in it is out.

My verdict - it is as ridiculous as I thought it would be. Actually it is probably worse since it tries to say these things are common in the Imperium and were bioengineered by the Second Imperium and are hunted by Aslan war bands... Mongoose rule of kewel strikes again.

No explanation of how a 100,000t animal gets enough food, a totally implausible 'it has internal hydrogen filled sacks to help support its weight'; it is a cartoon animal, not a serious addition to the Imperial setting. But apparently they are now canonically all over the Third Imperium

These things are totally biologically, energetically and physically impossible. Perfect for a Loony Tunes cartoon universe, they have no place in a science based setting.

 

[Winged Cat]

That phrasing and spelling ("kewel") suggests that you are the same person making the same complaint as on the Mongoose forums, so I will say here what I said there.

1) They cut part of the material I submitted, such as the portions intended to explain how it exists (how it feeds, for instance). I am asking Mongoose about that - if they intend to add it back in, if I can put it into a wiki article about the creature, or what. My hunch is that they will allow me to at least put the material on the wiki.

2) Like it or not, Mongoose is a licenseholder. Anything they say is OTU canon, is OTU canon unless overruled by Marc Miller. You are not Marc Miller.

2a) But, as with most elements of the setting, you don't have to use them in YTU if you don't want to. (For instance, the arc-field weapon has only appeared in Mongoose books so far. Don't want those to exist in YTU? Then they don't. Same principle here.)

 

[mike wightman]

No, I am not Marc Miller and can not decide on what he consider canonical for the OTU.

But I can point to material that has no place in a science based setting, and definitely not the OTU.

Just because something is in JTAS it is not necessarily canonical for the OTU - there was stuff in the original JTAS that is not canonical for the OTU (interstellar teleportation talent for example).
Mongoose 'canon' is only canon for their ATU version of the Third Imperium.

Your megabeast is totally scientifically impossible. Can it be explained by ingame superscience handwave technobabble? I very much doubt it but I can be convinced if it is a plausible insetting explanation. If I can accept the Cymbeline silicon based life forms and Virus I can accept this

Is it a herbivore, carnivore, or omnivore? Have you calculated how much energy is needed to move a 100000t animal at a speed of 2m/s?. It's muscles have to be provided with 200MW of power, and that assumes 100% efficiency, which they can not be. That's only a fraction of its energy needs since it has to maintain its metabolism as well as move itself.