I reread High Guard last night, and...

[Blue Ghost]

And suddenly I remember why our group didn't do a whole lot of Traveller starship combat. This post is partially inspired by Whipsnade's feedback on my Traveller fiction which he graciously read and gave very important feedback.

So, let me get this straight, range bands are short and long. Turns are 20 minutes long, but no actual physics in terms of speed, time and distance in High Guard.

Am I missing something? Are there more detailed Traveller combat rules in some supplement or version of Traveller that I don't have?

Thanks much for any reply.

 

[Whipsnade]

Am I missing something? Are there more detailed Traveller combat rules in some supplement or version of Traveller that I don't have?

Blue Ghost,

CT has LBB:2 and Mayday in addition to HG2 for ship combat. Both use a vector movement system, LBB:2 with miniatures and Mayday on a hex grid, and both have somewhat similar time/distance "settings".

Also, in Mayday hexes, 0 - 5 is HG2's Short and 6 - 15 is HG2's Long.

MT went to a pseudo-vector movement system for combat but still talked about ships using vector movement. MT also had the completely idiotic top speed ratings for ships designs based on gee ratings and configurations. Just what those speed ratings were actually meant to be was never really clear, but MT also had lots of charts showing intra-system travel times based on constant thrust with midpoint turn overs just like CT's vector movement.

TNE had an extremely strict vector movement system thank to HEPlaR's fuel requirements. Ships in TNE were rarely under constant thrust because they rarely had enough fuel to do so.


Regards,
Bill

 

[far-trader]

...So, let me get this straight, range bands are short and long. Turns are 20 minutes long, but no actual physics in terms of speed, time and distance in High Guard.

Yep, until somebody either breaks off from the battle or is disabled.

If they break off successfully then they get out of weapons and (presumably) sensor range and are safe. Call this beyond long range.

If they are disabled then they may (under certain conditions) be boarded. Call this inside short range.

The thing to remember is that HG combat is an abstract system designed to handle large fleets engaged in a somewhat formal style of warfare.

The ships are indeed maneuvering, a lot, but they have to do it together (barring breaking off or being disabled) to maintain the line of battle and screen the reserve. This limits their choices of maneuvering. They also have to stay close enough to the enemy to attack them. So there is a lot of shifting positions and reorienting ships to bring batteries to bear over that 20 minutes. And (imo) a lot of fire exchanged (most of which misses), not just 1 shot from that laser in 20 minutes, more like 1 shot every minute (or more). Except missiles. Those are (imtu at least) a single launch that takes the 20 minutes to close the distance and strike.

This is the part fiction (yours, the ref's in the game) can (and should) focus on. There is a lot of action, sweat, and fear packed into that 20 minutes. It's very much busy time. It's not; Minute 1 : Fire weapons, Minutes 2-19 : Brew some tea and have a nice cup and catch up on paperwork, Minute 20 : Damage happens

Sometimes one fleet will be attempting to close while the other tries to open up the distance. Sometimes both will be happy with the range and just be trying to outguess the enemy fire spread and try to be somewhere else. But once battle is engaged, until one side decides to break off, they will both be somewhere in that optimal fire range (of long or short). The actual physics in terms of speed, time and distance are superfluous to HG combat. They still happen, and can be used in the description of the battle within the context of the rules, but they aren't spelled out.

 

[Jeffr0]

Am I missing something? Are there more detailed Traveller combat rules in some supplement or version of Traveller that I don't have?

See TNE for an example of a "Range Band Plus" combat system.

The actual vectors are determined for patrol situations fairly well... some just plain nifty rules.... Though gigantic fleets would tend to gum things up there....

From a fiction standpoint... High Guard defines a universe where a mismatch in fleet capabilities is generally going to be decisive. If you know the other guys specs, you will generally know if you're going to win or not in advance.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Hmm, okay. But if the vector rules are in LBB2, then how come I've never come across them in the basic hardbound book? I guess the vector rules are in the reprints.

 

[far-trader]

Hmm, okay. But if the vector rules are in LBB2, then how come I've never come across them in the basic hardbound book? I guess the vector rules are in the reprints.

You mean "The Traveller Book" by hardbound book?

It's in there, Movement on page 73 (and the diagram on page 75).

Or perhaps "Starter Traveller" was also available as hardbound and that's the one you mean? I'm not as familiar with that book so I can't say without checking.

 

[Supplement Four]

So, let me get this straight, range bands are short and long. Turns are 20 minutes long, but no actual physics in terms of speed, time and distance in High Guard.

Am I missing something? Are there more detailed Traveller combat rules in some supplement or version of Traveller that I don't have?

You're thinking of using HG combat in the usualy tactical space combat sense. That's not the type of game HG space combat is. If there's any tactics in it at all, it in the design of the ships (ship building).

There is some strategy, but it's more akin to checkers than chess.

What HG combat is ... is an abstract system that allows the GM to conduct space combat between large vessels while gaming.

Players can be down on a planet, and a space war can be happening above them. I used HG one time to figure out the fight between two megacorps above Aramanx.

It's an abstract system. The way to think about HG combat is to think of it they way you would the abstract large scale ground combat rules shown in Book 4.

It's also a "commander's" game--it's made for the players to operate large space vessles. They're not gunners in a single turret, as in Book 2. It's broadsides combat between these gargantuan vessels.

Think of being aboard the Galactica as the Cylons jump in to fight. What is Adama focussed on? He's looking at groups of weapons and damage control. The two big vessels basically just sit there, slugging it out, like the old naval vessels.

So, as a commander in the game, what do you need to know?

What ships are in range, what ships aren't? In the game, this translates to Short and Long range. Different weapons are designed for different jobs (and ranges).

You can also move your reserve into the fight...

"Bring up the Fresno and the Alutian from outsystem. Have them help form the line."



The "meat" of the game focusses on the weapons themselves. This is where you spend most of your time. Attack throws and defense throws. And, when lucky, damage throws.

Capital starship combat in Traveller suggests that maneuvering is meaningless. If you're in range, no matter where you are, the other guy can fire at you.

This is why there is no plotting in HG combat. You just put your ships in an abstract line, for bookeeping's sake (to determine who got hit and who goes when, etc). In reality, your ships are not necessarly in a straight line. All the first row means is that the ship in that row is at the specified range. These ships can be scattered all about a 3D environment.

Go back and watch the new Battlestar Galactica as it acts in one of those grand fights they show in that show. As soon as the Galactica gets in range, it starts pounding the enemy. And, the enemy does the same. (Of course, BSG fighters are more effective than Traveller fighters, so, that's where the comparison ends).



In the end, think of HG space combat in two ways:

1 - It's an abstract system to determine a space fight while keeping the action focussed on the players, not unlike the abstract ground combat system presented in Book 4.

2 - It's a commander's game in that the players focus on which ships are in range and what weapons they have.

 

[Supplement Four]

Or perhaps "Starter Traveller" was also available as hardbound and that's the one you mean? I'm not as familiar with that book so I can't say without checking.

To my knowledge, Starter Traveller was never released in hardback (but it is a full sized softback, in two parts).

Starter Traveller, is, though, the only place where Range Band movement is used with LBB2 space combat.

So...

Book 2 space combat uses vector movement.

The Traveller Book space combat uses vector movement.

Starter Traveller uses range bands.

High Guard is an abstract system.

Mayday space combat combines hexes and vector movement.

And, there is a very nice JTAS article that brings Mayday hexes and vector movement to High Gaurd.

 

[Supplement Four]

How I've handled HG battles in the past....

I typically focus on the traditional tramp freighter crew in my past Traveller campaigns, but I have used HG a few times during these campaigns.

I mention above the battle I had in the Aramanx system between Tukera and Sternmetal while the PCs were groundside. The outcome of the battle was important to the plot of the campaign (The Traveller Adventure), but I left it up to the dice to decide which side won the day.

The players were groundside on Aramanx when the fight broke out. I brought it to their attention via the news cast. As they watched, I cut to the action above, split the players in two, and let one side play Tukera while the other played Sternmetal.

It was quite fun. I suggest something like this when the players are learning HG combat because it's forgiving of mistakes and PCs don't die. No matter what happened in the space fight above, we would cut back to the action planet side, following the PCs (although the outcome of the space fight had an influence on what happened to the PCs down below...I wanted the players to feel some stakes in the fight).



Later, in the same campaign, the players were on the Aramanx high port when an even bigger engagement occurred between Tukera and Sternmetal (Sternmetal won the first fight, and Tukera counter attack from their base at Natoko.)

In this fight, I started off allowing the players to play both sides, then I switched to me playing the HG fight while the players moved the PCs and tried to escape the system while the fight was happening.

I combined Starter Traveller combat and HG combat for this fight. I'd fight one HG round, then two ST rounds, then another HG round, followed by two ST rounds, etc. In this fashion, we fought the overall fight and then focussed on what was happening specifically around the player's ship as they escaped.



One other way I was going to use HG (but this campaign never got off the ground) was to use it as a "background" to a campaign. I wanted to put the PCs in charge of Imperial vessles during the Fifth Frontier War and have the battle group go around the Marches swapping blows with the Zhodani and Vargr.

I meant to play HG like this, jumping from system to system, laying some play on my PC such has figuring where base and re-supply was, where fuel was, and do a few HG combats, and then use these couple of game sessions as "background" for the campaign.

The players would be allowed to be either Marines or Naval personnel assigned to this battle group. After the HG sessions, we'd go through character generation. If a player was a pilot, we'd figure what kind of action he saw based on what happened during the HG sessions. If a player actually got his character to rank of Captain, he would have actually been the captain of the ship he played during the HG sessions. For Marines, we'd do the same thing--figure out their role (which maybe was nothing if there were no boarding actions).

I wanted to play the last year or so of the FFW, then go into character generation...then proceed with the game normally, but have all this detailed background for the players.

They'd know the systems well, and they'd have an appreciation for Imperial Naval vessels, the navy, and the conflict as a whole.

It was a pretty exciting idea that I never got off the ground. I even planned to use one of the Kiniur scenarios during the campaign, working that story in with the HG background sessions.

Maybe one day I'll dust off this idea and put it into action.

 

[Whipsnade]

S4,

Nice examples from your campaigns.

My players were wargamers first and roleplayers second, so I routinely pulled out the Mayday map and made the pilot and navigator play out their ship's trip to and from the jump limit. Most of the time nothing happened, but I'd move various markers representing merchants, SDBs, and other vessels around while rolling behind a screen and making notes to myself.

It turned a boring tip into something the players physically did.

As for combat, I again used Mayday's map and movement system with HG2's combat tables. That gave everyone something to do. I had to ditch some part of HG2 though, like the Line and Reserve model, but I never had large numbers of large ships involved.

I few times during an active service IISS campaign I ran, I mapped out a gas giant's system of moons on a Mayday map, calculating how fast and often each moon would move. The players then plotted the movement of their scout within that system on various missions.


Regards,
Bill

 

[DonM]

Hmm... I've used Starter Traveller's range band combat, and HG2's damage rules together.

I seem to never get my head into vector movement. I don't know why... :rofl:

 

[aramis]

Hmm... I've used Starter Traveller's range band combat, and HG2's damage rules together.

I seem to never get my head into vector movement. I don't know why... :rofl:

:rofl:Too linear a thinker, perhaps? :rofl:

Seriously, tho, I used mayday as my baseline. I use it with Bk2 style rules, and with HG, and even with MT. I just prefer vector.

 

[far-trader]

I seem to never get my head into vector movement. I don't know why... :rofl:

It's all the drawing lines on the table, when the battle moves off the paper.

Then on the floors, up the walls, out the door...

:rofl:

 

[Supplement Four]

It turned a boring tip into something the players physically did.

My default in a game is to use the Starter Traveller version of LBB2 space combat.

I'll take the map of the ship and lay it on the gaming table in front of everyone. Then, I run the combat from inside the ship--from the player's point of view. They don't see a wargame plot with a lot of ships. They see the decks of their own ship. During a combat, the pilot, navigator, and gunners usually don't leave their stations.

If they want range to an enemy, they have to read the sensors. I'll keep track of range using Range Bands. I'll describe what their character sees on the plot.

The space combat turns are fairly long, 1000 seconds, over 15 minutes. Typically, I'll run space combat as written unless something happens aboard ship.

For example, I might get creative with a cargo hit. "Roll a six sider. You manifest says that a third of your tonnage is flammable. If you roll 1-2, we may just have to deal with a fire in the hold."

If that happens (or, even something like a boarding action), I'll play the starship combat in sequence, but between rounds, I'll spend about 15 min of game time (several combat rounds) playing what's happening aboard ship.

It's all focussed on role playing. The players are living with their characters inside the ship instead of looking at a map.

Damage control becomes a real thing. If it's a generic hull hit, I will sometimes make up tables, based on the design of the ship, that damages sub systems (that I pull out of the SOM, make up, or whatever). This type of damage won't be on the same level of severity as that damage shown in the LBB2 damage tables, but it will keep the engineer and players busy.

Maybe the main access corridor to engineering has been hit, damaged in the hull hit. There's no power there. Dark. Hull breach. No gravity--which also means no inertial compensation.

Now, this becomes an obstacle for the players to overcome, especially if they've got to use that corridor. It's role playing. "How are you going to get the torch and portable generator from engineering up through that corridor to the hold?"

The players become embroiled in the drama happening inside the ship as well as the space combat that is happening outside the ship.

I've run space combat this way for years. It's quite entertaining to run it this way--focussed on roleplaying.

The attack roll in LBB2 space combat represents all shots that weapon took over the last round--over the last 1000 seconds--not a single attack. So, armed with that, I'll continually describe the near misses and constant laser fire coming from the enemy vessel. Both ships, firing wildly, taking the shot gun approach because it's so hard to hit these small targets at the huge distances involved in space combat.

It must be something to watch from a third party perspective.

Hmm... I've used Starter Traveller's range band combat, and HG2's damage rules together.

I seem to never get my head into vector movement. I don't know why... :rofl:

I've never used the true LBB2 vector movement method. It always seemed so fussy.

But, I've used used hex-based vector movement--basically Mayday and LBB2 combined, where the hexes are 10,000 km. That's a real nice and easy way to run vector combat.

 

[Drakon]

This sounds great from a PC perspective. And agree that most of the crew of the ship will want to be concerned about hits they take rather than hits they deliver.

However, the Captain and gunnery crew do need to focus attention on delivering hits rather than responding to hits recieved. They need to understand the battle space, the location of enemy ships, etc.

So it seems that ideally you would play both games. One for enginneers, DC and the rest. Another for the captain, pilot and fire control teams.

Wow, this sounds familiar. It seems that is the way things are in the real world wet navy.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Okay, I read the two paragraphs dealing with game scale. I think I'm on better footing now.

Whipsnade, I'll see about conjuring something soon. Currently I've got another non-Traveller project that requires my attention.

Thanks all for the references.

Ghost out

 

[Whipsnade]

Whipsnade, I'll see about conjuring something soon. Currently I've got another non-Traveller project that requires my attention.

Blue Ghost,

Drat and double drat!

Having to wait for you the finish that story is going to drive me nuts!


Regards,
Bill

 

[Supplement Four]

So it seems that ideally you would play both games. One for enginneers, DC and the rest. Another for the captain, pilot and fire control teams.

It's all up to the players.

As I said above, I'll play the LBB2 starship combat system straight if there's nothing to do aboard ship (using Starter Traveller range bands). But, my players always know that they have 15+ minutes each space combat round.

The pilot/nav/gunners are all stuck. They're doing something for the entire time at their stations. But the steward? The ship's medic? Maybe a cargo hand? Those guys can always do something during that 15 minutes (1000 seconds) if they want to.

Sometimes I'll run the LBB2 space combat round, and before we switch to the next round, my players will just say something like, "The steward, medic, and engineer will help the four passengers get into emergency Vacc Suits."

Or, I might take this time to play out an encounter with the ship's passengers.

If there's nothing to do, then there's nothing to do. We just move on to the next space combat round as normal. The time is there, though, if the players inside the ship want to use it.





During one game, I had them encounter a ship design that wasn't in the ship's recognition library. It fired on them. They were in combat with it. Each space combat round, I gave one of the PCs a chance to dig through the computer library to find some sort of clue as to the nationality/type of ship this was. I gave them something like a 15+ roll needed with DMs of computer skill and computer model number. They could attempt the throw once per combat round. When successful, that information was availabel to the bridge personnel on the very next space combat round.





I'll also play out damage control. We'll figure what's wrong. The engineer will have to get tools, spare parts. Other crewers may help. It's a role play situation.

Same thing happens if a character is injured. We spend 15 minutes with the doctor as he attempt to treat the injured character. Sometimes, this character can return to his station.





During a recent campaign, the players had a single cargo unit of fake cargo. It was really a computer controlled low berth. When the pirates attacked, they sent a radio broadcast with instructions to activate the computer in the custom cargo pod. This brought those in cold sleep awake in the same way that large naval starships bring up cold troops (which is damn quick).

The troops secretly got out of the cargo pod, set up a defense in the hold, then tried to move on the bridge.

Outside, the pirate vessel was keeping the PCs busy.

As soon as the cold berthers were up, and the PCs found out about the, we had ourselves two different fights going on.

I'd play out the 1000 second space combat round, then I'd go into the interior fight, as the bad guys tried to break their way out of the hold. We'd play 15 or so minutes of this fight, then move to the next space combat round. And, so on.

 

[Whipsnade]

S4,

The descriptions of your ship combat method reminds me of Avalon Hill's Patton's Best and B-17. In those games, the tank and bomber in question never moved. Rather, the objects they interacted with moved around them instead.

Patton's Best had a small roleplaying component. The crewmen aboard the Sherman tank were rated for various attributes associated with their jobs and those could change as the game progressed. (I can't remember if B-17 had something similar, but I seem to recall something effecting MG rolls against Luftwaffe fighters.)

There was another aspect of Patton's Best that I found especially interesting. When an enemy tank, gun, or squad is first spotted, the Sherman's crew does not know exactly what type of tank, gun, or squad they are! This means that, until better observations can be made, the tank is treated as if it were a Tiger, the gun is treated as if it were a Flak-88, and the squad is treated as if it were something just as dangerous.

Once the Sherman's crew gets a better look at their opponents, the tank, gun, and squad usually become something a little less dangerous.

I always loved the "limited intelligence" aspect of these rules.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Supplement Four]

The descriptions of your ship combat method reminds me of Avalon Hill's Patton's Best and B-17. In those games, the tank and bomber in question never moved. Rather, the objects they interacted with moved around them instead.

Hm, those games sound cool.

I was never a war gamer. Well, not until the games hit PC. I think the only real dice-n-counter war game I've ever played was AH's Battle of the Bulge. A friend of mine had it, and we played a few times.

I always remember wanting to wargame but the gamers around me wanted to role play. And, that was mostly D&D.

Heck, it was years before I could get them to play Traveller. Bond. Top Secret. Star Trek. Star Wars. But, once I did, D&D was gone forever.

We can't stand finicky rules now. We like quick-n-easy.



BTW, I've been anxious to look at those Criminal books. They were supposed to arrive on the 3rd. I think they're lost in the mail, but Amazon is making wait until the 10th to see if they show up. Sucks.