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ice baby ice

The group sounds like a bunch of bricks.

I would not use the ice as a defense--I would use it as a weapon. If there is snow there so much the better. Ice is hard to walk over especially if loaded with normal combat kits. Running, without cravats-forget it. Snow covered or thin ice covered hidden pits, or trenches, with ice stakes or better deep water (salt-?) to destroy the insulation of the victims who fall into the pits. With soaking wet clothes no insulation is possible (how fast can you freeze in a light wind) and can they even get out of the pit without drowning?
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How do the weapons operate with ice in the mechanisums?

If they are in the mountains and heavy gunfire erupts, and echos, avalanches are always a possiblity. Even if it takes a snowball or three to get them started.

Blowing snow is very hard to see through and ice should hide any body heat signature until it is too late. Any energy weapons are going to create a lot of steam that will refreeze on something very quickly in the temps you describe.

I think your group is looking at this very wrong and should appreciate what a natural resource they have.

Lord Iron Wolf
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P.S. I forget the proper vietnam name for it but a shallow pit with some icicles in it just big enough for a foot to cripple an attacker.
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The group sounds like a bunch of bricks.

I would not use the ice as a defense--I would use it as a weapon. If there is snow there so much the better. Ice is hard to walk over especially if loaded with normal combat kits. Running, without cravats-forget it. Snow covered or thin ice covered hidden pits, or trenches, with ice stakes or better deep water (salt-?) to destroy the insulation of the victims who fall into the pits. With soaking wet clothes no insulation is possible (how fast can you freeze in a light wind) and can they even get out of the pit without drowning?
toast.gif
How do the weapons operate with ice in the mechanisums?

If they are in the mountains and heavy gunfire erupts, and echos, avalanches are always a possiblity. Even if it takes a snowball or three to get them started.

Blowing snow is very hard to see through and ice should hide any body heat signature until it is too late. Any energy weapons are going to create a lot of steam that will refreeze on something very quickly in the temps you describe.

I think your group is looking at this very wrong and should appreciate what a natural resource they have.

Lord Iron Wolf
file_23.gif


P.S. I forget the proper vietnam name for it but a shallow pit with some icicles in it just big enough for a foot to cripple an attacker.
omega.gif
 
Ironwolf: at those temps (-40 and below) you don't keep over-water pits open for more than an hour or so without maintenance. Seals and polar bears work to keep them open... Saltwater freezes...and excretes the majority of the salt... and forms skims. Skims which quickly thicken to the point they can support a non-bouncing polar bear.

Cravats are NOT a good idea on thin ice or when you may have crusted snow; if you hit a thaw-crusted snow or a fog-crusted snow drift, and have cravats, you've just broken the crust, and fallen in. Cravats are for climbing ice-walls, or walking on thin ice over solid surfaces. Neither are terribly likely.

Snowshoes, however, are good on both ice and snow. Most ice in such environments is NOT smooth. It has a surface much like a well used but un-zambonied ice rink following a snowstorm. Not fun to walk on, but if you have snowshoes, the minor slips will be negated by he huge footprint.

Also, snowfields are usually devoid of convenient visual references, so those hidden traps are NOT teribly bright. Pits work in jungles because nature channels people through certain points. Snowfields seldom have that.

Mountain terrain is a whole 'nother matter; the avalanche danger is key. You could wind up killing yourself by snow slide just by digging that pit. (Which is why avalanche prediction pits are usually dug by two man teams; one digging, and one standing by to dig out the digger, and trigger a pit wall failure.

As for IR imagery: how you're holed up makes a huge difference. If you are in the open, even in a pit, you will create a heat-plume; if you are in an igloo or snow cave, the exhaust point will be a much smaller heat plume, but you will be a much smaller (though still detectable) difference, but over a larger area. (In short, living beings are heat sources; heat sources will produce the same heat-output at the given rate, and it's either a narrow transfer but bright (heat plumes) or a large but dim one.

And those stakes are "punji". It is important to remember that they woked a good bit by being contaminated (oft with excrement); the contaminants are likely to not be melted before they are removed. Icicles completely lack the ductility to survive all but straight on impacts. I've fallen on them. It's rare they will even break uncovered skin, and when they do, it's usually upward-grown ones. (A friend and fencing partner managed to catch an icicle in the palm; it wasn't debilitating until the next day... and was so for the following week.) Also, iced wounds tend to both bleed less, and cause less immediate shock.

Now, if I were the one trying to gack them, I'd use paintballs with gasoline, and laser carbines or tracers. Gas them up, light them up, burn their pro-gear off, and let them freeze to death. At 40 below F, if you can expose the torso, you've just killed them if they can't be in shirt-sleeve comfortable shelter in 20 minutes or less.

Welcome to Alaska. Have a cold Death!
 
Ironwolf: at those temps (-40 and below) you don't keep over-water pits open for more than an hour or so without maintenance. Seals and polar bears work to keep them open... Saltwater freezes...and excretes the majority of the salt... and forms skims. Skims which quickly thicken to the point they can support a non-bouncing polar bear.

Cravats are NOT a good idea on thin ice or when you may have crusted snow; if you hit a thaw-crusted snow or a fog-crusted snow drift, and have cravats, you've just broken the crust, and fallen in. Cravats are for climbing ice-walls, or walking on thin ice over solid surfaces. Neither are terribly likely.

Snowshoes, however, are good on both ice and snow. Most ice in such environments is NOT smooth. It has a surface much like a well used but un-zambonied ice rink following a snowstorm. Not fun to walk on, but if you have snowshoes, the minor slips will be negated by he huge footprint.

Also, snowfields are usually devoid of convenient visual references, so those hidden traps are NOT teribly bright. Pits work in jungles because nature channels people through certain points. Snowfields seldom have that.

Mountain terrain is a whole 'nother matter; the avalanche danger is key. You could wind up killing yourself by snow slide just by digging that pit. (Which is why avalanche prediction pits are usually dug by two man teams; one digging, and one standing by to dig out the digger, and trigger a pit wall failure.

As for IR imagery: how you're holed up makes a huge difference. If you are in the open, even in a pit, you will create a heat-plume; if you are in an igloo or snow cave, the exhaust point will be a much smaller heat plume, but you will be a much smaller (though still detectable) difference, but over a larger area. (In short, living beings are heat sources; heat sources will produce the same heat-output at the given rate, and it's either a narrow transfer but bright (heat plumes) or a large but dim one.

And those stakes are "punji". It is important to remember that they woked a good bit by being contaminated (oft with excrement); the contaminants are likely to not be melted before they are removed. Icicles completely lack the ductility to survive all but straight on impacts. I've fallen on them. It's rare they will even break uncovered skin, and when they do, it's usually upward-grown ones. (A friend and fencing partner managed to catch an icicle in the palm; it wasn't debilitating until the next day... and was so for the following week.) Also, iced wounds tend to both bleed less, and cause less immediate shock.

Now, if I were the one trying to gack them, I'd use paintballs with gasoline, and laser carbines or tracers. Gas them up, light them up, burn their pro-gear off, and let them freeze to death. At 40 below F, if you can expose the torso, you've just killed them if they can't be in shirt-sleeve comfortable shelter in 20 minutes or less.

Welcome to Alaska. Have a cold Death!
 
Sounds like a nasty idea with the paint balls.Remember the temp was in c not f so it was -35c and terrain was flat, so chance of averlanche.The atmos' prevents some fires.

The players are doing well in the situation.one is a barbarian who is still impressed by radio systems(still shouts down them) One of the others is a research scientist who doesn't want to even be there. The rest are a mixed bag. There not meant to be the SAS.They are used to air conditioned starships and subsadised canteens, most of them have never seen ice unless it was in their cocktail.

Their incopentents is half the fun.
Also not much chance of digging a pit in -35c with few tools and someone shooting at you.

Well I will find out soon as we play tommorrow night.Thanks for the ideas to all of you.
 
Sounds like a nasty idea with the paint balls.Remember the temp was in c not f so it was -35c and terrain was flat, so chance of averlanche.The atmos' prevents some fires.

The players are doing well in the situation.one is a barbarian who is still impressed by radio systems(still shouts down them) One of the others is a research scientist who doesn't want to even be there. The rest are a mixed bag. There not meant to be the SAS.They are used to air conditioned starships and subsadised canteens, most of them have never seen ice unless it was in their cocktail.

Their incopentents is half the fun.
Also not much chance of digging a pit in -35c with few tools and someone shooting at you.

Well I will find out soon as we play tommorrow night.Thanks for the ideas to all of you.
 
Can you give us a full character breakdown?

Barbarian ACR
Research scientist Snowballs
?
?
?
?

What did you intend to use for an attacking force?
 
Can you give us a full character breakdown?

Barbarian ACR
Research scientist Snowballs
?
?
?
?

What did you intend to use for an attacking force?
 
Rescue medic Auto pistol
Security Assault rifle
Security Assault rifle
wounded security Laser carbine
Driver snub pistol
Hindu priest Statue of Garnesh

23 civilians

The attacking force is made up of 4 ATV with LMG
45 Mixed pirates who mainly have tech 7 weapons and little inclination to get shot or get out of the vehicles if they can help it!
 
Rescue medic Auto pistol
Security Assault rifle
Security Assault rifle
wounded security Laser carbine
Driver snub pistol
Hindu priest Statue of Garnesh

23 civilians

The attacking force is made up of 4 ATV with LMG
45 Mixed pirates who mainly have tech 7 weapons and little inclination to get shot or get out of the vehicles if they can help it!
 
Originally posted by penal battalion:

(OT)@cweiskircher: Just curious, but how did your electronics hold up under those temps? I work in the field and we rarely get any reliable feedback.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Our Radios worked as long as we had new batteries we kept in our shirts to stay warm.
Our Thermal Optics worked better because our coolant cartridges lasted longer and did not have to reduce the temprature as drastically as they did when we were fighting in the desert in summer ;)

Our Radar froze up solid after 30 minutes at -107F

What other electronics would you like info on? We used many in our High Technology Testbed at Ft. Lewis.
file_23.gif


I've been out over 12 years and am now able to tell people most of what I was doing (Never will be able to tell all Though. Silly Government stuff)
file_28.gif
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by penal battalion:

(OT)@cweiskircher: Just curious, but how did your electronics hold up under those temps? I work in the field and we rarely get any reliable feedback.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Our Radios worked as long as we had new batteries we kept in our shirts to stay warm.
Our Thermal Optics worked better because our coolant cartridges lasted longer and did not have to reduce the temprature as drastically as they did when we were fighting in the desert in summer ;)

Our Radar froze up solid after 30 minutes at -107F

What other electronics would you like info on? We used many in our High Technology Testbed at Ft. Lewis.
file_23.gif


I've been out over 12 years and am now able to tell people most of what I was doing (Never will be able to tell all Though. Silly Government stuff)
file_28.gif
Click to expand...
 
-35C is roughly -32 F

OK two step process... if the snowpack is deep (8+ feet):
pick a spot, and dig tunnels 5'high with support columns; ice the columns (with water, made by heating the snow). If you dig with heat, the resultant water (snowpack is roughly 40-60% air; fresh fluff can be as much as 90% air...) wicks away through the snow.

Then, make a ring tunnel around as narrow as possible.

WHen the ATV is spotted, lure it into the pit.run in through the tunnels, and storm it. the lack of visibility will provide massive protection.... unfortunately, they'll KNOW they've been had.

Now, if there is glacial ice, digging in to that, well, it's hard as concrete. Almost literally; count it as poor concrete or Hard and Rocky earth. It can, however, be melted with a hairdryer (slowly). a laser welder does a nice job, too, but the steam will get the operator... Best ice-cutting blades are about 180F-200F (80C-90C); hot enough to quickly melt through, and not hot enough to cause steam.
 
-35C is roughly -32 F

OK two step process... if the snowpack is deep (8+ feet):
pick a spot, and dig tunnels 5'high with support columns; ice the columns (with water, made by heating the snow). If you dig with heat, the resultant water (snowpack is roughly 40-60% air; fresh fluff can be as much as 90% air...) wicks away through the snow.

Then, make a ring tunnel around as narrow as possible.

WHen the ATV is spotted, lure it into the pit.run in through the tunnels, and storm it. the lack of visibility will provide massive protection.... unfortunately, they'll KNOW they've been had.

Now, if there is glacial ice, digging in to that, well, it's hard as concrete. Almost literally; count it as poor concrete or Hard and Rocky earth. It can, however, be melted with a hairdryer (slowly). a laser welder does a nice job, too, but the steam will get the operator... Best ice-cutting blades are about 180F-200F (80C-90C); hot enough to quickly melt through, and not hot enough to cause steam.
 
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