kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Yes, I do have the M-60 and M-2 confused.
Is the Striker HMG supposed to be the M-2?
Iconic Small Arms
- Thread starter LeperColony
- Start date
Yes, I do have the M-60 and M-2 confused.
Is the Striker HMG supposed to be the M-2?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I'm not sure - I think it is since it is an HMG, but the Striker version is about half the mass of the real world M-2.
With the term iconic, I applied that as iconic to Traveller.
Auto rifles, shotguns, et al, those are things we have today. There's nothing really novel or "traveller" about them -- they're just rifles.
The gauss rifle fits in to the projection of science and technology to the every day that has been a hallmark of Traveller.
The FGMP and PGMP are there also, but they're specific to the battle dress and high end militaries. I always visualized that the hi tech "everymans" rifle is the gauss rifle.
Auto rifles, shotguns, et al, those are things we have today. There's nothing really novel or "traveller" about them -- they're just rifles.
The gauss rifle fits in to the projection of science and technology to the every day that has been a hallmark of Traveller.
The FGMP and PGMP are there also, but they're specific to the battle dress and high end militaries. I always visualized that the hi tech "everymans" rifle is the gauss rifle.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Those tend to be military grade, by their very effect.
If you had to pick one, I'd say it would be the snub pistol; because I literally never heard nor conceived of them until I read Traveller.
If you had to pick one, I'd say it would be the snub pistol; because I literally never heard nor conceived of them until I read Traveller.
LMG's are, axiomatically, smaller bores - 5mm to 8mm.
.50 (12.7mm) is axiomatically an HMG. HMG's are typically 12.7-15.5mm, but a few in the 12.5 mm have been designated heavy...
Autocannon are axiomatically the 15.5mm and up.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
In American usage.
The Germans (and hence a lot of other armies) use the same 7,62 mm machine-gun, but with different mounts. With a heavy, stable mount and lots of ammo it's a HMG. With a bipod it's a LMG. They vary the rate of fire, not the caliber.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
The US M1917 water-cooled Browning Machine Gun in .30-06 caliber was always called a Heavy Machine Gun by the US. The air-cooled M1919A4 version was called a light machine gun.
The water-cooled gun weighed 91.75 pounds with water jacket filled and tripod. A loaded ammunition chest, with a 250 round fabric belt added 17.68 pounds. The water chest for cooling water would add another 22.5 pounds when filled with water. The water-cooled gun could fire for hours at a sustained rate of 125 rounds per minute. The total weight of the gun with water, tripod, and water chest was almost as heavy as the .50 caliber M2 gun with a 45 inch heavy barrel, which was air-cooled and weighed, with tripod, 129.38 pounds. There was a water-cooled version of the .50, used primarily by the Navy prior to adoption of the 20mm, which weighed 121 pounds with water but without a mount, which typically was an anti-aircraft mount.
The air-cooled gun weighed 45.3 pounds with tripod, while a ammunition chest loaded with three 100 rounds fabric belts add 20.8 pounds. Maximum sustained rate of the light machine gun was 60 rounds a minute, but after about 10 minutes you would need to hold fire for about 10 minutes to let the barrel cool. The German M34 and M42, both of 7.92mm caliber, required frequent barrels changes to maintain a high rate of fire.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I am using the data for the automatic rifle given in Book 1: Characters and Combat, page 39 of the 1981 edition.
Emphasis added. This puts the Automatic Rifle at Tech Level 6, not Tech Level 10 or higher. As I said, an automatic rifle weighing 12.125 pounds using a 154 grain bullet at a velocity of 2,953 feet per second is not a feasible weapon. Having this weapon using a belt is even less possible. Any sort of sustained fire is going to burn the barrel up in short order, besides being totally uncontrollable.
I am assuming that we have reached at least Tech Level 6 in weaponry. The BAR was developed and used in World War One, hence the M1918 designation. That did not hold true for weapons developed between and during World War 2. Hence, the Thompson Submachine Gun had official designations of both M1928A1 and M1, and there was both a M1 Rifle (the Garand), and a M1 carbine. Military designations at times can be somewhat confusing.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You are now talking at cross purposes.
The TL10 ACR is way beyond anything we can build at our current TL of 7, it has no real world analogue.
Advanced caseless or binary propellent rounds could allow for continuous smooth acceleration of the round, increasing velocity and reducing impulse/felt recoil. Advanced alloys can easily cope with the temperatures - you just need a cheap way to manufacture aircraft turbine blade alloy (this is effectively the crystaliron alloy of the Striker etc materials tables).
An alternative at higher TLs is personal weapons fire mini-rockets (accelerator rifle, assault rocket launcher) before the switch to gauss technology.
The TL10 ACR is way beyond anything we can build at our current TL of 7, it has no real world analogue.
Advanced caseless or binary propellent rounds could allow for continuous smooth acceleration of the round, increasing velocity and reducing impulse/felt recoil. Advanced alloys can easily cope with the temperatures - you just need a cheap way to manufacture aircraft turbine blade alloy (this is effectively the crystaliron alloy of the Striker etc materials tables).
An alternative at higher TLs is personal weapons fire mini-rockets (accelerator rifle, assault rocket launcher) before the switch to gauss technology.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Sorry, I do not understand you. In what way is the BAR or any of the 50s-60s 7,62mm assault rifles unfeasible?
They are not intended for sustained automatic fire, but neither are LMGs?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I was referring to a weapon weighing about 12 pounds as not being feasible as an automatic rifle. The weapon cannot be adequately controlled while firing.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
I believe you are mistaken. A Browning Automatic Rifle weighs more than 8 kg and is often fired from a walking, hip position. And well controlled
The M-60 has been done that way as well.
There are more examples.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Recoil is the result of accelerating a projectile along a barrel, regardless of how smooth the acceleration is. The exit velocity of the ejecta mass, a combination of projectile weight and powder gases dictates recoil. You increase velocity, you increase recoil. The lighter the firing weapon, the more the free recoil. That is quite straightforward physics. Mini-rockets get around the recoil problem by accelerating the projectile primarily out of the barrel, but as a result, are traveling quite slowly in relation to a bullet at the weapon muzzle. Check out the Gyroject pistol. Accuracy is also a problem, and the mini-rockets are not cheap.
As for the gauss rifle, that is not going to be recoilless either. The same magnetic field that is accelerating the projectile forward is accelerating the rifle backward.
With respect to caseless ammunition for personal weapons, that has been being worked on since before World War 2. It has yet to come close to coming about. As for weapons firing caseless ammunition, they can be purchased right now. They are called "muzzleloaders".
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I thought you were talking about the Autorifle as an example of how the ACR is not doable.
Despite appearances with the M60/M2 foulup, I do know the above models, being involved in WWII games with sim qualities and constant constant discussions on how they should be modeled.
The book in question lists the auto rifle as automatic versions of the Springfield M-14 and the FN-FAL 7.62. So, you can take up your issues with those as baseline. I don't know if you fired those or not.
Just based on a few youtubes, seems doable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSceYZsGbkU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvlsrgL_Plg
Sorry for the obnoxious Russian guy.
Anyway, looking good as a weapon.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
G-11 was a functional caseless prototype and handled the recoil with that delayed effect- it just never had a contract.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_didDgUjn0
Russians have various fidgety guns that deal with recoil in novel ways too, it's just not something Western armies are likely to deploy en masse anytime soon. Another round of TL and these things may get reliable/functional enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATpeX3XBuuw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJs9sBBjLls
A lot can clearly be done with the smaller rounds, I would expect such techniques to be ultimately applicable to larger rounds.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Not quite - impulse is everything. If you can smoothly accelerate the round for the entire length of the barrel rather than in one explosive jolt then recoil will be a lot softer and controllable.
Never claimed it would be, Newton's third law has stood the test of time.
Not just caseless or binary, the propellant must expand evenly for the whole time the projectile is in the barrel. Some sort of electrical ignited propellant or even a plasma may well how the ACR works, but three TLs from now if like predicting a G-11 based on a matchlock musket.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I have a personal design for a caseless revolver, where an exchangeable, probably disposable hard plastic cylinder acts as the case.
It's not original, since a variant was actually designed as an airplane security gun, as the ammunition was kept separate from the delivery platform.
It's not original, since a variant was actually designed as an airplane security gun, as the ammunition was kept separate from the delivery platform.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Rock Island Arsenal developed something very similar to the snub pistol for use by tunnel rats in Vietnam. I will have to see if I can find the article in one of my old Armor magazines giving the description. It was based on the .44 magnum revolver with a very short barrel, with the case loaded with BB shot, and upon firing, projecting the shot down the barrel, while the cartridge case sealed itself and did not release any powder residue from the weapon. A very interesting design.
