Ideas for 2320

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Colin:
Earth has a response to the Kafers, and the pieces of the puzzle are already in play in the 2300 (2320) universe.

Note that, whatever the response, the Core worlds would be extremely unwilling to commit genocide, even against the Kafers. The scars of the Twilight War run too deep on Earth. On the Frontier, however, especially along the French Arm, others might see things differently.

No matter the effect of the response on the Kafer worlds, they will still have fleets running around causing trouble, even 20 years later.

But really, it's the Pentapods you have to keep an eye on...

I always found the Pentapods much scarier, in a Amnion in Donaldsons Gap series way.

I tried for the economics of the Kafer sphere, using striker as a baseline, and guess at the unlisted worlds.

http://www.geocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/KP.htm

Yes, about 30% of Kafer strength was committed to the Invasion by this reckoning (including the 16 extra ships from the Kafer sphere involved in the Battle of Aurore, early Jan 2302)

By strength the Suzerains break down as:

Over-Suzerain: 29%
Triumphant Destiny: 5% *
Gvah: 6% *
What Strikes!: 4% *
Sky Seizer: 1.4% *
Wiley Cunning: 2.6%
Rrrah: 18%
Fight For Fun: 15% (1/2)
Great One: 19% (1/2)

The stauch anti-humans forces are only about 15% the Kafer military machine, so about the same may have been committed by Fight for Fun or Great One (if they each committed half their forces, that would be about right). This fits with such a weak patrol from Great One at the Ylii homeworld (BTW between 2300 and 2303 the remaining two Ylii colonies seem to have fallen, leaving only their homeworld)

In terms of military ships, the Kafers outnumber Terra (France has ~60, America, Britain and Germany ~ 40 each, while the minor powers involved in the invasion (Elysia, Russia, Ukraine, Japan) mustered 23 (although I'm convinced Japan has more elsewhere), and the smallest Kafer ship (Epsilon) is a match for a human Missile Cruiser.

We ain't gonna beat them.

Bryn

 

[BMonnery]

How much of an advantage stutterwarp 2 would be depends on what form it takes, but I think the Ylii advances in technology, particually computing technology, will be a huge advantage. The use of remotes and drones, sort of super-smart submunitions, is one advantage I can see, plus enhanced computing power means you can be more accurate in your predictions of where a stutterwarping ship will be going, and hence increase the accuracy of detonation missiles, as they will be more able to predict where to fire.

Stutterwarp 2 = extended range (9.4ly ISTR).

The Kafer ships include Ylii computers and so have a +3 Target Computer.

Rules are buried in Invasion and SotFA for robotic space combat weapons (Sentinals, the "smart submunition"). They get a -3 to hit penalty.

Bryn

 

[Colin]

Originally posted by BMonnery:

We ain't gonna beat them.

Bryn

Keep in mind that the Kafers have rudimentary, at best, medical technology. It's not even certain if they've developed a germ theory of disease... That leaves open certain possibilities, does it not?

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Colin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BMonnery:

We ain't gonna beat them.

Bryn

Keep in mind that the Kafers have rudimentary, at best, medical technology. It's not even certain if they've developed a germ theory of disease... That leaves open certain possibilities, does it not? </font>[/QUOTE]If we want to try Germ warfare, its a possibility, although the typical Kafer response to one Safe-Place being infected may be to nuke it in order to avoid spreading the contagion.

Also, the Ylii are more advanced than humanity, and remember, conquered Ylii don't view themselves as slaves, and would combat it.

Wasn't this discussed on the old Galstar list?

Bryn

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by GJD:
I did modern (C20) history in school, and that was nearly 15 years ago, so forgive me if my estimates were off by a few years, but you get my drift.

Actually, I don't. Look at Canada and Australia who had good relations (as Colonies/Commonwealth areas) for over 150 years. The difficulties with the American colonies were an aberation.

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GJD:
I did modern (C20) history in school, and that was nearly 15 years ago, so forgive me if my estimates were off by a few years, but you get my drift.

Actually, I don't. Look at Canada and Australia who had good relations (as Colonies/Commonwealth areas) for over 150 years. The difficulties with the American colonies were an aberation. </font>[/QUOTE]A lot of this is due to Britains reconsideration of colonial policy post ARW (appropriate for 4th July). Britain tried to impose policy on the American colonies, the policy being that they should pay for their own defence. A series of mishaps and a few firebrands like Samuel Adams ("Uncle Sam") led to a virtual state of civil war in the colonies, compelling the British to try and impose law again with military force. Obviously, it didn't work.

After this, the British (who were always unhappy with owning an empire) tried to impose as much self-government as possible on the colonies, and ISTR that this caused problems in Canada, and led to the Red River Rising of ISTR 1837.

Canada and Australia have been given a lot of latitude, and were effectively independent nations as of the 1920's, although bound to the UK by mutual self interest.

This is how the British Commonwealth of 2300 seems to be evolving. Wellon gained dominion status ~60 years previously, and cast off that title to become a full fledged nation 30 years ago. Alicia is at the Dominion stage, and I'd imagine New Africa is likewise. Crater and New Cornwall are Crown Colonies (government directly appointed by the UK).

The likely outcome is that the new nations will retain a lot of loyalty to the mother country well after independence, while those nations which try to keep a firm grip will lose them totally.

Just MHO

Bryn

 

[Uncle Bob]

Close to my thinking, Brian.

BTW, Sam Adams was not much of an orator or a thinker. He was a tavern keeper and ran a gang of thugs called the "Sons of Liberty". They did the dirty work for the Boston smugglers, especially John Hancock. His most significant exploit was provoking the British troops into firing at Lexington.

Well, that's one interpetation of the sketchy facts. It might even be true.

 

[robmyers]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Colin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BMonnery:

We ain't gonna beat them.

Bryn

Keep in mind that the Kafers have rudimentary, at best, medical technology. It's not even certain if they've developed a germ theory of disease... That leaves open certain possibilities, does it not? </font>[/QUOTE]If we want to try Germ warfare, its a possibility, although the typical Kafer response to one Safe-Place being infected may be to nuke it in order to avoid spreading the contagion.

Also, the Ylii are more advanced than humanity, and remember, conquered Ylii don't view themselves as slaves, and would combat it. </font>[/QUOTE]Th Ylii have better computers. Don't know that that counts as more advanced. The 'Pods are certainly ahead of them in biotech.

The techie Ylii are indeed willing slaves. Re-created Ylii warriors are another matter. Genetic intervention on the Kafers may be seen as immoral, but if the Kafers prisoners could be genetically engineered, every Kafer ship would have an attack force on it.
Once the Kafer war is over, all thse warriors could turn into some serious blowback for the Ylii and Humanity, though.

I'd love to see a multi-species taskforce against the Kafers. Give those Eber warriors something to scare apart from the occasional Human farmer.

Whilst I agree that Humanity does not, mid-2303, have the capacity to defeat the Kafers as is, American, Manchurian, Sung and Pentapod manufacturing may help, as will the Ylii and any secret weapons (such as stutterwarp 2, which to be honest I don't want to see as it messes up the map). But it will take time, and a blockade or other strategy will be desperately needed to buy that time. Call Cdr. Maginot.

Post-Twilight Humanity won't countenance nuking, germing or gassing an entire race. Some sort of domesday weapons might be prepared in secret, but the public would have to do a lot of soul-searching before they agreed to an un-conventional response. But perhaps I'm wrong and this is Humanity's wake-up call.

- Rob.

 

[TWILIGHT]

Has anyone considered that the remaining Kafer forces may use 'back door' to attack vulnerable human (US/AUS) colonies? If I was the O/S i'd use my forces to absorb TD's territories, and then send my next rival up the US arm in a shot at Earth leaving the O/S in a position of strength...tyrants often gamble their empire in order to screw over rivals...especially when there are barbarians at the gate. Time for the Manchu's to step up to the plate. jmho!

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by TWILIGHT:
Has anyone considered that the remaining Kafer forces may use 'back door' to attack vulnerable human (US/AUS) colonies? If I was the O/S i'd use my forces to absorb TD's territories, and then send my next rival up the US arm in a shot at Earth leaving the O/S in a position of strength...tyrants often gamble their empire in order to screw over rivals...especially when there are barbarians at the gate. Time for the Manchu's to step up to the plate. jmho!

ISTR the Backdoor requires a tug link, which isn't a technology they've developed. However, with Ylii help.....

Its certainly a scenario.

Bryn

 

[GJD]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GJD:
I did modern (C20) history in school, and that was nearly 15 years ago, so forgive me if my estimates were off by a few years, but you get my drift.

Actually, I don't. Look at Canada and Australia who had good relations (as Colonies/Commonwealth areas) for over 150 years. The difficulties with the American colonies were an aberation. </font>[/QUOTE]A lot of this is due to Britains reconsideration of colonial policy post ARW (appropriate for 4th July). Britain tried to impose policy on the American colonies, the policy being that they should pay for their own defence. A series of mishaps and a few firebrands like Samuel Adams ("Uncle Sam") led to a virtual state of civil war in the colonies, compelling the British to try and impose law again with military force. Obviously, it didn't work.

After this, the British (who were always unhappy with owning an empire) tried to impose as much self-government as possible on the colonies, and ISTR that this caused problems in Canada, and led to the Red River Rising of ISTR 1837.

Canada and Australia have been given a lot of latitude, and were effectively independent nations as of the 1920's, although bound to the UK by mutual self interest.

This is how the British Commonwealth of 2300 seems to be evolving. Wellon gained dominion status ~60 years previously, and cast off that title to become a full fledged nation 30 years ago. Alicia is at the Dominion stage, and I'd imagine New Africa is likewise. Crater and New Cornwall are Crown Colonies (government directly appointed by the UK).

The likely outcome is that the new nations will retain a lot of loyalty to the mother country well after independence, while those nations which try to keep a firm grip will lose them totally.

Just MHO

Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]As I’ve mentioned, my knowledge of American history and British colonial history is limited, but my understanding was that part of the reason we (Britain) fared so badly in the AWI was a lack of commitment to keeping the colonies, we were having problems in India at the same time and up until then the Indian Colonies were a lot more profitable. Up until that point America had produced mostly wood and angry natives. We couldn’t fight uprisings in two colonies in two different parts of the world at the same time and we were more committed to keeping the Indian colonies, so sent the majority of troops and resources that way. Plus our king was bonkers.

 

[GJD]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How much of an advantage stutterwarp 2 would be depends on what form it takes, but I think the Ylii advances in technology, particually computing technology, will be a huge advantage. The use of remotes and drones, sort of super-smart submunitions, is one advantage I can see, plus enhanced computing power means you can be more accurate in your predictions of where a stutterwarping ship will be going, and hence increase the accuracy of detonation missiles, as they will be more able to predict where to fire.

Stutterwarp 2 = extended range (9.4ly ISTR).

The Kafer ships include Ylii computers and so have a +3 Target Computer.

Rules are buried in Invasion and SotFA for robotic space combat weapons (Sentinals, the "smart submunition"). They get a -3 to hit penalty.

Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]Was the 9.4 Ly based on the Ebertech, or is a figure given elswhere?

So a Ylii enhanced Sentinel would be +0? Nasty in numbers and cheap to produce.

 

[robmyers]

Originally posted by GJD:
Was the 9.4 Ly based on the Ebertech, or is a figure given elswhere?

See:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/best/stutwrp2.htm

at Pentapod's World of 2300AD. I think 9.4 was Eber.

- Rob.

 

[BMonnery]

GJD,

There's a really good (I assume, Brigadier Professor Richard Holmes is doing it) series on the American Revolutionary/ Independence War on at 21.00 hours tonight BBC2. Might be relevent to colonial independence movements in 2k3.

BTW Where in Essex are you?

Bryn

 

[Colin]

This is just a musing, not an official thing. (yet)
What if Stutterwarp 2 were discovered, but the radiation produced by the drives made it lethal to operate. Morever, the drives would likely render any cargo unusable as well.
What does that leave? Well, you could use it as a message drone.
Or a weapon. A big, AI-crewed (yes, I know AIs go whacko) drone with a cargo of something nasty. Or maybe a Ylii autonomous drone brain. Add Sung reaction drives for hard, close planetary manuevering...
What sort of ramifications would something like that have? (The AI aspect is something I don't overly favor, but they exist in the game)

 

[TKalbfus]

Stutterwarp 2 means it goes 2 light years in a day. One way to get around the stutterwarp limitation is to build really large starships out of asteroids whose surface gravity is 1/10,000 of Earth's gravity. No matter where it goes it will always be inside a gravity well, unfortunately it also travels less than the speed of light. The solution is to break the asteroid into chunks where the gravity is less than that, and whenever they need to let of some radiation, they come together againt to dump excess energy, then they split apart and go into stutterwarp again. There can be no "death stars" in the 2300 universe due to this upward size limitation on starships.

 

[robmyers]

Originally posted by Colin:
This is just a musing, not an official thing. (yet)
What if Stutterwarp 2 were discovered, but the radiation produced by the drives made it lethal to operate. Morever, the drives would likely render any cargo unusable as well.
What does that leave? Well, you could use it as a message drone.
Or a weapon. A big, AI-crewed (yes, I know AIs go whacko) drone with a cargo of something nasty. Or maybe a Ylii autonomous drone brain. Add Sung reaction drives for hard, close planetary manuevering...
What sort of ramifications would something like that have? (The AI aspect is something I don't overly favor, but they exist in the game)

A Human-tolerable stutterwarp 2 would destroy the feel of the game, changing the geography of the arms and travel times beyond recognition. Please don't add a Human-tolerable Stutterwarp 2. Oh, you're not going to. Whew!

The ship crew wouldn't have to be AIs: ships using the Eber stutterwarp from Ranger (and presumably the Eber homeworld) would have crew available for them on Kormoran. If Humanity could negotiate for Eber warriors to pilot SW2 ships, that would give the Human war effort the dual boost of a breakthrough weapon and a multi-species coalition.

'Smart' SW2 drones would raise the spectre of a twilight-war-style apocalypse wrought by humanity on another species. They'd cause consternation at the Core.

The real problem with smart interstellar SW2 drones is that unless they do go wrong they don't leave a lot for the PCs to do. If SW2 could give greater efficiency rather than/in addition to increased range then SW2 detonation missiles for ships would give humanity a boost without resolving the plot automatically. Until the Kafers' Ylii reverse-engineer any captured SW2 equipment. Better make sure they don't...

Would Sung reaction drives would be their Ion drives? I hadn't thought about those before but they must have been hot-rodding them a bit losing the Slaver War.

- Rob.

 

[Colin]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Stutterwarp 2 means it goes 2 light years in a day. One way to get around the stutterwarp limitation is to build really large starships out of asteroids whose surface gravity is 1/10,000 of Earth's gravity. No matter where it goes it will always be inside a gravity well, unfortunately it also travels less than the speed of light. The solution is to break the asteroid into chunks where the gravity is less than that, and whenever they need to let of some radiation, they come together againt to dump excess energy, then they split apart and go into stutterwarp again. There can be no "death stars" in the 2300 universe due to this upward size limitation on starships.

Umm, no. Stutterwarp 2 is a theoretical stutterwarp with a maximum range of 11 ly. As for the other idea, that's a whole lot of asteroid. And the grav field required for stutterwarp discharge is 0.1 G, not 0.0001 G. See this link Manmade stutterwarp discharge points. for more information.

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Stutterwarp 2 means it goes 2 light years in a day...

I thought the mooted Stutterwarp2 was an 11LY limit, not a change to SW efficiency. Interesting idea. Source?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

 

[Colin]

No, there won't be a human-tolerable stutterwarp 2. Given that the Eber stutterwap was 8.9ly (IIRC), I'm not sure even they could survive a Stutterwarp 2. Even their radiation-tolerance has it's limits. The learning curve would also be a little steep, but doable. I don't really want a stutterwarp 2 that anyone can use. Using it for faster missiles would work, though. Hmm...