I'm Not A Good Player!

[Whipsnade]

I'm a poor player too. I believe it's because I've been a referee for too damn long.

I can't stop worrying about metagaming. I can't stop worrying if I'm playing my character as my character. I start to question everything I do and then it all goes recursive.

I don't argue with the referee, I don't blame the dice, I don't pull out the books, and I don't grouse at the other players but I can't shake the feeling I'm playing at playing instead of simply playing.

Because I can't stop seeing the man behind the curtain or, more accurately, thinking that I can see the man behind the curtain - I can't stop second guessing myself: "Am I doing this because my character would? Or because I think it's what the referee wants/needs my character to do? Or... or... or... or..."

It all collapses into paralysis by analysis instead of just being fun.

 

[coliver988]

I'm a poor player too. ... but I can't shake the feeling I'm playing at playing instead of simply playing.
...

That sounds like me - sometimes I worry that I just like the idea of playing more than actual playing. I have a hard time getting into a character, and with my group it can be even harder at times as we've got 2 older TSR play testers who can really get into characters (but they can also be quite upset with people who don't know the rules or get into character, so that makes it very daunting to play in their games as well)

 

[Timerover51]

Most of the time, when we played RPGs, it was Traveller, and I was the referee.

The three notable exceptions was one Runequest campaign, where I was a player, and a couple of recent Traveller games run by Stan Shinn. Now, I am a player in a very occasional Star Wars campaign.

And in all cases, I realized that I stink as a player.

I have little to no imagination. I can't decide what my player should do. I go with the flow. I don't think ahead. I don't naturally go into puzzle-solving mode. With Stan's Traveller game, I had encyclopedic knowledge of the setting (generally, and compared with the others) but couldn't do anything useful with that knowledge.

It's frustrating, because the whole drive since 1994 was to play Traveller... then when I get a chance, I seem to fizzle.

I'm not (really) bummed about it. This is simply an observation, and a realization that in order to play a game well, I need to re-learn what it is I like about the game, and to see it from a player's perspective.

I suspect that that perspective will also make me a better referee.

You say that you "stink" as a player. My response is: "so what". Not everyone is going to be a terrific player, or even an above-average one. Some just chug along with the group, contribute when they can, and enjoy playing the game. All leaders and no followers is a pretty good description of chaos. When you play, focus on supporting the group, help when you can, and enjoy the game and time with your playing group. Some people are better at playing and some are better at refereeing. If you are better at refereeing, I view that as a plus. Good referees are hard to find.

 

[kilemall]

I'm a poor player too. I believe it's because I've been a referee for too damn long.

I can't stop worrying about metagaming. I can't stop worrying if I'm playing my character as my character. I start to question everything I do and then it all goes recursive.

I don't argue with the referee, I don't blame the dice, I don't pull out the books, and I don't grouse at the other players but I can't shake the feeling I'm playing at playing instead of simply playing.

Because I can't stop seeing the man behind the curtain or, more accurately, thinking that I can see the man behind the curtain - I can't stop second guessing myself: "Am I doing this because my character would? Or because I think it's what the referee wants/needs my character to do? Or... or... or... or..."

It all collapses into paralysis by analysis instead of just being fun.

I played STA this weekend, ended up doing double duty as Captain and XO I sent off on the away team since the XO player didn't show.


I found myself in much the same state, with the addition that I wanted to prompt the other players to get into the act rather then just take orders from me.


The other players however were expecting command decisions from me so even though I might have faded into the background, I couldn't, and pretty much made the right calls all the way down the line.



That was satisfying as my problem solving/resource managing hat still worked, and it was necessary that I was in command as the others that did show weren't hardcore Trekkies and could have easily got lost.



I had to shut my mouth at one point as one major clue dropped by the referee as to the nature of The Threat had me screaming inside- but the XO I was running shouldn't be able to act on that knowledge.


I just went to the ref to find out which character knows how much, so I didn't work myself up into a resolution box- have to remember you aren't reffing even if you can't shut off the instinct. Let him do his job.


So I guess as a ref/DM/whatever about 70% of the time in my group, I'd advise refs to not get worked up over the ref computer running in your head, let the ref define his world same way you'd like to in his magboots, be helpful but also take pride in doing the player part and dealing with a different way of doing things.

 

[robject]

Let me ask this Rob- would the lifepath stuff some of the later stuff, or say using the cards from T2000 to determine character nature/motivation, help figure out what your character would want and give you a direction?

Let me answer that in this way. When I ran through some chargen this summer for the Serenity RPG, I thought picking assets and obstacles was fun, or at least amusing, and ... yes, I think it did help me bring focus to the characters.

 

[kilemall]

Let me answer that in this way. When I ran through some chargen this summer for the Serenity RPG, I thought picking assets and obstacles was fun, or at least amusing, and ... yes, I think it did help me bring focus to the characters.

Well then. Do that.

 

[Whipsnade]

Let me answer that in this way. When I ran through some chargen this summer for the Serenity RPG, I thought picking assets and obstacles was fun, or at least amusing, and ... yes, I think it did help me bring focus to the characters.

Hmmm... I began using the T2K or TNE NPC motivation card system soon after seeing it. (I don't remember which product I picked up first, but I got into T2K late.)

I wonder if using something like lifepath results or motivation cards would help me feel like I'm playing instead of feeling like I'm playing at playing?

 

[JimMarn]

I played STA this weekend, ended up doing double duty as Captain and XO I sent off on the away team since the XO player didn't show.


I found myself in much the same state, with the addition that I wanted to prompt the other players to get into the act rather then just take orders from me.


The other players however were expecting command decisions from me so even though I might have faded into the background, I couldn't, and pretty much made the right calls all the way down the line.



That was satisfying as my problem solving/resource managing hat still worked, and it was necessary that I was in command as the others that did show weren't hardcore Trekkies and could have easily got lost.



I had to shut my mouth at one point as one major clue dropped by the referee as to the nature of The Threat had me screaming inside- but the XO I was running shouldn't be able to act on that knowledge.


I just went to the ref to find out which character knows how much, so I didn't work myself up into a resolution box- have to remember you aren't reffing even if you can't shut off the instinct. Let him do his job.


So I guess as a ref/DM/whatever about 70% of the time in my group, I'd advise refs to not get worked up over the ref computer running in your head, let the ref define his world same way you'd like to in his magboots, be helpful but also take pride in doing the player part and dealing with a different way of doing things.

I find I can mostly shut off the ref computer in my brain and enjoy a game.

However, one of my siblings has upon more than one occasion started playing a game at a convention, looked at the sketch map from directions of the ref, and said something similar to 'we need to go back to the passageway that didn't seem to go anywhere, thats our way to the treasure'.

Apparently when they get upset and ask how they figured it out, they pointed at me. Then one of the committee people said something about he makes really good dungeons and players learned to look around very carefully.

What did the ref do ? Told my sibling to go away and never come back.

Or another way is, bad guys shouldn't put an unsheilded hole leading directly to the planet destroyer's reactor.

Rather tired today, so if that doesn't make sense, just say so. I'll try to explain again.

 

[Whipsnade]

However, one of my siblings has upon more than one occasion started playing a game at a convention, looked at the sketch map from directions of the ref, and said something similar to 'we need to go back to the passageway that didn't seem to go anywhere, thats our way to the treasure'.

You just neatly described exactly what I was unable to do so.

I can't shut off - or believe I can't shut off - the ability to look at the various aspects of a RPG session be it an encounter, map, or NPC from "the direction of the ref".

 

[JimMarn]

You just neatly described exactly what I was unable to do so.

I can't shut off - or believe I can't shut off - the ability to look at the various aspects of a RPG session be it an encounter, map, or NPC from "the direction of the ref".

She did ask him later, after he had calmed down, why did you put in a passageway that went around all the guards and traps ?

He didn't have answer other than he thought it was neat or something similar.

While my game dungeon passageways can go around the main areas, there are still guards and traps to over come.
My siblings' feelings about gaming against orcs, etc. is 'No prisoners !".

 

[khadaji2002]

If you are better at refereeing, I view that as a plus. Good referees are hard to find.

This. 100% this. I ran a game to give our GM a break and allow him to play a character rather than run the world. We learned two things. I'm a better player, and he's a better referee. That said, he enjoyed the break and his game picked up steam due to his ability to recharge for a few sessions.

Don't worry how good a player you are. If the group is having fun, and you're getting a rest from GMing, that's all good. If you were in my group, I have no doubt we'd have a few laughs about the game, and have a blast when you sat back down in the referee's chair.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Most of the time, when we played RPGs, it was Traveller, and I was the referee.

The three notable exceptions was one Runequest campaign, where I was a player, and a couple of recent Traveller games run by Stan Shinn. Now, I am a player in a very occasional Star Wars campaign.

And in all cases, I realized that I stink as a player.

I have little to no imagination. I can't decide what my player should do. I go with the flow. I don't think ahead. I don't naturally go into puzzle-solving mode. With Stan's Traveller game, I had encyclopedic knowledge of the setting (generally, and compared with the others) but couldn't do anything useful with that knowledge.

It's frustrating, because the whole drive since 1994 was to play Traveller... then when I get a chance, I seem to fizzle.

I'm not (really) bummed about it. This is simply an observation, and a realization that in order to play a game well, I need to re-learn what it is I like about the game, and to see it from a player's perspective.

I suspect that that perspective will also make me a better referee.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread. robject, I think you'll find that you need to be interested in the game before you become good at anything. That sounds obvious, but with RPing you really need to be both anticipatory and anticipating for the story.

You may want to be there to play, but you really need to keep an open mind like with your other RPing experiences. You need to be in that "I can't wait for Christmas" mode of thought. You're there at the spaceport / starport bar (& grill ), you interact with a patron, head out to the local TAS store, gear up, pick a flight or jump fuel up the ship and take off to a destination unknown.

You don't need to jump in with both feet and say "I'm talking with the ship's computer on the fastest route to Rhylanor." If there's nothing for you to do, then don't do anything. If your specialty is Streetwise, and you're with the band out in the jungle or on some vacuum world in a spacesuit / vaccsuit, then just get into character and rattle off some inner city quip you heard on TV, the radio, or in person; "Yo-yo-yo, wasssaaaap? Man, this place has less air than... *insert clever inner city truism here*"

As a player I recognize my short comings and my character's shortcomings, so if I'm the ship's … I don't know … moral officer or mathematician, and we come under fire, then I either just suit up and shut up, or ask if anyone needs a hand with anything, and otherwise let the experts take over.

With a fantasy game there's more leeway because you can jump in unskilled. If someone's hurt you can take a crack at bandaging them, but odds are you have some cleric or wiz with a spell or some reagent to heal whoever got hurt.

I've told this story before, but there was some guy at a Car Wars' session who had never played, I don't think he had ever done any RPing, and had a blast. He did a lot, vaporized a tambourine banging Hari Krishna with his turreted laser when said Krishna pulled a Mac 10 on him, and laughed up a storm. But he never came back. Why, I don't know, but maybe for all the fun he had he didn't like the game after all or something. But he was inventive enough to just try anything and have fun.

That's why you play RPGs, to have fun and experience a story with your friends. But it doesn't mean you have to be the star nor proactive all the time.

 

[ManOfGrey]

Here's something you might try...

robject...

I assume you began this tread because you are feeling like you are missing some of the fun as a player. And granted, there has been a lot of advice on how to capture some of that fun for yourself. There has also been quite a bit of advice about how reading science-fiction might give you some insight on how to develop a character and his motivations.

I'm not sure I completely agree. Reading is passive. Try writing. If you want to spur creativity, then create.

Now, I agree...there's work, effort, and time involved. But not more than what it takes to Referee.

Forgive my curiosity, but maybe this would be something would like to try here, now, in this thread? You mentioned you are playing in a Traveller game or two. When you get a chance, why don't you write about one of your character's backgrounds, and post it here for us to read? And I don't mean his stats, his UPP, or his skills. I'm talking about his backstory. And I don't mean to ask what service he mustered out from, or how many terms he served. I mean his story. (And you'll probably have to make one up.)

Was he in the Navy, Marines, or Army? Was he in a battle? Did he earn a ribbon for Meritorious Conduct Under Fire? What happened? What did he do to earn such a commendation?

Was he in the Scouts? Did he make contact with an alien race while he was in the service? What was that encounter like?

Was he in the merchant service? The regular merchant service? Or did he work for ImperialLines?

Was he an Agent of the Imperium? Was he a cop on the beat, or assigned to counter-intelligence? Did he have to break up a Zhodani spy organization during his term? Or did he have to conduct covert operations against them? (Something of a mean trick against a people who can read minds.)

Anyway, you get the idea. This is often where I begin. To play a character, you often have to create one in your mind first. And I find when I write about it, the act of putting it down on paper forces me to gather and consolidate my thoughts.

Again, I would think it would be very interesting if you would try this exercise and share it with us. But more importantly, I think it would be great if you would try this exercise and share it with your Referee. I know quite a few Referees that would be thrilled if their players fleshed out their backgrounds. (I'm one of them.) Because your background often spurs their imagination as well.

Or, if you want, you mentioned you are playing in a Star Wars game. You could tell us about that character instead...

 

[DonaldH]

Writing the backstory is just fun! I rolled up two PC's for a couple of new coworkers, while they are not interested in gaming they still got a heck of a laugh out of "their" PC's random gen can be a real tool for thought. The guy person is kind-of a stoner ended up being a cop and the rather straight laced woman ended up being a computer hacker / thief in the mob, and I just had a good ol time laughing at where the rolls took their stories.

 

[Black Vulmea]

And in all cases, I realized that I stink as a player.

How do you run non-player characters in the games you referee? Have you tried approaching your character like s/he's a non-player character in a game you were running?

 

[aramis]

How do you run non-player characters in the games you referee? Have you tried approaching your character like s/he's a non-player character in a game you were running?

A lot of NPC's are functioning under illusionism - they aren't run by the rules the same way a PC is in most people's games; I have reasons to suspect Robject is one of these GMs. I know I tend to be now.

 

[gchuck]

I have no idea what kind of player I am..

..since I have never actually 'played' in a Traveller game.

I have reffed quite a few games, and always wanted to play.

No refs around. Sigh.