Imagining the Imperial Army with T5

[Blue Ghost]

Grrr...I don't want to get involved in another thread, but this is important. My knee jerk reaction is that this is another "grey area" in Traveller regarding militaries. For all we know even the IISS operates a meson cannon or two, or maybe even some planetary defense batteries (though I doubt it, and if so, then only in specific special cases).

The ambiguity is reflective of the official government militaries verse noble militaries verse any cross over because of nobility having government functions in parts of the Imperium.

Given all that, I would suggest including defensive batteries in both services. I would think the Army or COACC would operate those defenses based on a preplanned strategy. That is to say if a planet is seen as having valuable real estate, then I would think the Imperial Army would be the ones calling the shots (no pun intended) for defense of the world. On a more barren world that perhaps had lots of other assets, but didn't have a lot of valuable territory, then I would think the Imperial Navy might be manning those, or, it might be an arbitrary decision among the services dependent on force strength and staging needs; i.e. if an IA unit was need on a world with a strong navy presence for purposes of mobility, then the army might the ones manning the planetary defenses as opposed to the navy, and vice versa.

Just my take.

In short, even if the char gen tables don't offer the skill, that shouldn't discount the notion that the Army probably has a role in manning defenses. It's just not listed in the rules as such. Ergo perhaps this is errata or addendum material.

 

[atpollard]

I have no real problem with a no Meson Army, if meson guns are all spinal mounts ... how many 16" guns did the Army have in WW2?

If TLs eventually get Meson Guns down to 'tank size', then the Army will start to deploy them with troops.

... unless, IYTU, you have a BOLO.

 

[mike wightman]

Artillery

Army gets the skill - at TL15 that is meson guns

nuff said

 

[Reban]

I'd like an Ogre or a BOLO but they'll have to wait until VehicleMaker is reviewed after T5 Combat is fixed.

 

[Reban]

Artillery

Army gets the skill - at TL15 that is meson guns

nuff said

Have you read the thread or the BBB?

Artillery is only a Knowledge of the Heavy Weapons Skill and "Artillery shoots unguided projectiles on a non Line-Of-Sight path.". So that rules out meson guns.

 

[mike wightman]

Do you really want my honest reply to that post...

 

[mike wightman]

Yes - I have read the BBB

I have two of them, not to mention every play test file and discussion on various inter web

 

[mike wightman]

I have no real problem with a no Meson Army, if meson guns are all spinal mounts ... how many 16" guns did the Army have in WW2?

If TLs eventually get Meson Guns down to 'tank size', then the Army will start to deploy them with troops.

... unless, IYTU, you have a BOLO.

Did the German navy man their railway artillery?

 

[mike wightman]

I'd like an Ogre or a BOLO but they'll have to wait until VehicleMaker is reviewed after T5 Combat is fixed.

TL17+ at the very least

 

[atpollard]

Artillery is only a Knowledge of the Heavy Weapons Skill and "Artillery shoots unguided projectiles on a non Line-Of-Sight path.". So that rules out meson guns.

Forgive my ignorance of the BBB, but isn't that definition of artillery something of a problem ... I mean we ALREADY have Guided Munitions for Artillery.

So what does the BBB call the skill for direct fire guns?

 

[atpollard]

Did the German navy man their railway artillery?

Nope. It was an Army weapon used by an Army unit. (I looked it up).
... and at 85 cm, the biggest dwarfed the guns on a battleship.
So score a philosophical point for Army Deep Meson Sites.

 

[Reban]

Yes - I have read the BBB

I have two of them, not to mention every play test file and discussion on various inter web

I am pointing out what Traveller has to say about Army and artillery, and hence the limitations of T5 - sorry if it was too subtle for you.

My pet cat died tonight, I held him as he went, so I must apologise if my reply comes across as sarcastic - you may want to look that up on google.

I'm dreadfully sorry to hear that your cat passed away, it's obviously upset you greatly. It's just the same as having a death in the family and I know how that feels. You have my deepest sympathy.

Did the German navy man their railway artillery?

Not as far as I'm aware. But the Luftwaffe did field armored divisions and in WW1 the Royal Marines fielded siege artillery. If I was rolling up Luftwaffe ground troops I'd use the Soldier Career in T5 which suggest a solution for creating PCs in the Imperial Army's planetary defense or deep meson batteries would to be roll them up as Spacers with Gunner: Spines and give them a suitable background as part of the IA Artillery Corps.

I've tried to make it clear in this thread that I'm not making any hard statements about what the IA is or does or how its organized. I'm just pointing out artifacts of the RAW and providing either solutions or explanations.

TL17+ at the very least.

Perhaps I was too subtle there. As it stands VehicleMaker can't create really big vehicles. I want to see the inclusion of the options for Oversized and Titan which are present in ArmorMaker and GunMaker. That way big vehicles like Boeing 747's and Ogres and BOLOs can be created.

 

[Reban]

Forgive my ignorance of the BBB, but isn't that definition of artillery something of a problem ... I mean we ALREADY have Guided Munitions for Artillery.

So what does the BBB call the skill for direct fire guns?

Yeah I noticed that too. And were only on the cusp of development and fielding for guided artillery shells.

I think the problem there is the authors background. Wasn't Marc in the Artillery in the early 1970's?

The same problem exists with Travellers Forward Observer Process. Modern artillery fire in the era of GPS does not always have to be adjusted in the way it outllnes. You can give a grid reference, describe the target and what you want to happen and the fire mission can be fired without the laboreous process of ranging shells.

Speaking of Artillery in general there are no mortars in GunMaker, which makes me sad


[EDIT] In fairness there is a method of doing an artillery barrage under Military Explosions.

 

[mike wightman]

Reban, I'm sorry for posting that - note that I edited the original a bit.

Thank you understanding my temporary stupidity.

As to OGREs and BOLOs i was thinking of the robot brain required as per the old TL paradigm, I think that the makers in T5 can come close to making them at lower TLs - Rob did some pretty good work on extrapolating vehicle maker IIRC.

 

[Reban]

Reban, I'm sorry for posting that - note that I edited the original a bit.

Thank you understanding my temporary stupidity.

As to OGREs and BOLOs i was thinking of the robot brain required as per the old TL paradigm, I think that the makers in T5 can come close to making them at lower TLs - Rob did some pretty good work on extrapolating vehicle maker IIRC.

No harm no foul Mike and I really am sorry for your loss.

For full AI your probably right about TL17 but simpler robot brains are available earlier. And the main problem I see with making a really big ground vehicle is that it'll get stupidly slow unless you stuff it with High Powered or Fast options which makes TL shoot up.

But considering the Imperial Military on the whole and therefore the Imperial Army doesn't like using combat robots we'll leave that discussion for another thread

 

[rancke]

When it comes to system defenses, the navy deals with everything capable of moving outside planetary orbit and the army with everything in close orbit and below. Yes, that means that the character generation army is only one part of the actual army; sailors and flyers are also part of the army. Orbital defenses may be under navy control, army control or shared some way or another. This varies from world to world.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

When it comes to system defenses, the navy deals with everything capable of moving outside planetary orbit and the army with everything in close orbit and below. Yes, that means that the character generation army is only one part of the actual army; sailors and flyers are also part of the army. Orbital defenses may be under navy control, army control or shared some way or another. This varies from world to world.


Hans

That's kind of how I saw it, but I think the logic would depend on what assets were available, and that would depend on staging and/or garrison needs. If you have a large population with lots of resources and what not, so much that the navy can't handle it all with their marines, then it's probably the army that's in control of the planetary defenses.

If you have a world that's near some critical theatre, and you're only martialing your forces in a system and on a world that's predominantly defended by the navy, then even if you have massive amounts of IA regulars staged there, they are merely passing through, and therefore the permanent manning of planetary defenses probably falls under navy jurisdiction (possibly marine).

I think it's all dictated by the defensive needs of the world. Lots of factories, people, raw materials, and buildings probably means army. Lots of manufacturing, but little in the way of people, lots of shipping and what not, stuff that's "space oriented", then it's probably the navie's job.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Did I just kill another thread?

Where did everyone go?

 

[rancke]

That's kind of how I saw it, but I think the logic would depend on what assets were available, and that would depend on staging and/or garrison needs. If you have a large population with lots of resources and what not, so much that the navy can't handle it all with their marines, then it's probably the army that's in control of the planetary defenses.

The thing to consider is who is paying and what are they paying for. Planetary defenses would be paid for by planetary governments. That's the reason for the variations. This government feels that orbital fortresses should fall under the planetary navy, that government feels that they should fall under the planetary army. Either way it's not the responsibility of any Imperial service.

There are some worlds that are not member worlds or colonies of member worlds, and their defense would be the responsibility of the Imperium. But such worlds tend to be low on population, so I doubt there would be more than a small percentage of Imperial servicemen stationed on such worlds. Enough to allow any referee to plausible allow someone who served in such a place, but not enough to warrant inclusion in the generic tables (the generic Imperial tables, that is, not the generic generic tables ). That's just a feeling I have, though.

As for available assets, on a long term basis the assets would tend to conform to the logic, not the other way around. That is, if the Imperium wants a deep meson site on a world and don't have one, they could station an IN ship there, but it's more likely that they'd get the funds for a deep meson site somewhere else.

Anyway, my suggestion is to start by figuring out what the Imperium wants with the Imperial Army in the first place. What tasks is it supposed to perform?


Hans

 

[Reban]

Operations

Did I just kill another thread?

Where did everyone go?

I think its just a timezone issue.



Back on topic. Soldier operations include Combat, Peace Keeping, Occupation, Garrison and other unspecified "Missions". Marines have all the same operations types but I imagine for Imperial Marines they would be the spearhead and lead elements where as the IA operations would be follow-up initial Marine actions and have the logistics to support longer term operations.

Lets examine what these operations might mean to the Imperial Army rather than the generic soldier.

Garrison: Reaching back to the previous posts on planetary defenses garrison duty seems likely to include manning ground to orbit defenses. Providing a body of troops to both a planet and a wider subsector/sector area that can be called upon (i.e. Imperial authorities can draw forces that are stationed in local garrisons before or while larger formations are sent to a trouble spot). Garrisons are also used to emphasis Imperial authority to the populace. Training especially technical training is undertaken when a unit is settled in a garrison.

There's probably a whole lot of other things to figure out about what kind of places the Imperium would place a garrison too. Sector capitals, way Stations if the have military barracks and the Starport Defense Establishments all qualify because they have port facilities to allow you to move your army. Trouble spots, strategic points and places where recruits can be obtained are also places to site a garrison or more correctly an "Imperial Garrison".

Combat: Combat operations is pretty self explanatory. This is when the Imperial Army is actually deployed where there is shooting (this includes the unglamerous support and logistics operations). Of course it doesn't actually mean war. Police actions, raids, interdiction all come under this heading. Military Advisers, at least the more active kind also might see combat. Combat also accounts for all out war, including defensive operations and invasions.

Occupation: Following an invasion comes the occupation which eventually either turns into a garrison or withdrawal. Occupation is definitely a niche for the Imperial Army (although its in the Marine career too and there are historic examples of Imperial Marine occupation forces such as the Terran occupation/garrison). Occupation requires stabilization forces, security and rebuilding. Army intelligence plays a major role. Light mobile infantry are also useful but not Jump Troops unless you need a rapid reaction force.

Here's the thing. The Imperium as I understand it doesn't conquer new territory but incorporates planets and client states binding them into an economic and defense union where both the members and Imperium as a whole benefit. So the Imperial Army shouldn't have a character of a heavy handed occupational force yet occupation is as common an operation as garrison duty is. So that needs careful explaining when construction a Soldier or Marine character's background.

Peacekeeping: This is an interesting one. Its not peace enforcement which could actually be explained as occupation above, but then again maybe "peacekeeping" is careful Imperial media spin for police actions, suppressions and peace enforcement over Imperial member worlds. Errata also replaced insurgency with peacekeeping so I assume that in Imperial military speak peacekeeping also means counter insurgency operations. There are of course canon references to "separate light infantry brigades" involved in counter insurgency operations. Depending on the tone of your Imperium, light or dark, peacekeeping can mean a lot of things including a take over of government without the need for combat. Either way peacekeeping can be a lot more interesting than simply patrolling the blue line between two warring factions.

Missions: Literally anything you want it to be from training friendly forces as a military adviser, to peeling potatoes to feed the XXI Corps or undertaking "Operation Dumbo" across several parsecs. Military missions can also include diplomatic visits to other star empires, assignment as an aide-de-camp, or simple courier duty. It might mean attachment to another service or to industry to work o a prototype weapons system. Mission is one for your imagination.