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Imagining the Imperial Army with T5

There are some worlds that are not member worlds or colonies of member worlds, and their defense would be the responsibility of the Imperium. But such worlds tend to be low on population, so I doubt there would be more than a small percentage of Imperial servicemen stationed on such worlds. Enough to allow any referee to plausible allow someone who served in such a place, but not enough to warrant inclusion in the generic tables (the generic Imperial tables, that is, not the generic generic tables ;)). That's just a feeling I have, though.

Strategic importance should really decide where the Imperium wants to place and man its own defenses. Choke points, important industrial centers, sector capitals and depots might all merit Imperial built and manned defenses. Theres also the fact that if you put a bunker of Imperial troops on a world with a meson gun that can hit anywhere on the surface you have a powerful negotiating tool without resorting to parking the Navy in orbit in preparation for bombardment. But thats my fondness for a dark Imperium showing :devil:

Anyway, my suggestion is to start by figuring out what the Imperium wants with the Imperial Army in the first place. What tasks is it supposed to perform?

Hans

Hopefully I've done some of that with an examination of the available Operations types for the soldier career in an Imperial Army context above.
 
Battlefield Meson Guns

For example CT and CT Striker had Battlefield Meson Guns which carried on into other versions and I built my Imperial Marine Corps fire support around them in TNE.

But in T5 the smallest Meson gun is a Bay/Main Weapon that is 67tons. Soldiers don't study bay weapons or ortillery in ANM school and Marines don't study bay weapons so the only people operating meson guns in support of ground forces are the Navy.

Using the Starship-grade Weapons tables may not necessarily be a good indicator as to what can be mounted on a battlefield weapons platform.

The smallest Plasma & Fusion Guns on starships require a Barbette mount, and yet there are Man-Portable Plasma & Fusion Weapons Systems for Heavy Infantry & Infantry Support in T5.

A possible resolution for the technical aspect for Meson Weapons:

Space combat ranges are immense as compared to battlefield combat ranges. Since the application of the Meson Gun depends upon precisely tuning the velocity of the meson-beam to take advantage of relativistic time-dilation at a precise distance, it is possible that the reason a space-based Meson Gun require a 200dton Main-Weapon Bay is that it requires much greater power and much larger equipment in order to get the beam up to the necessary higher speeds for Space Combat Ranges before the particles decay.

Battlefield ranges are insignificant by comparison; it may be a much more trivial matter to build a battlefield meson-accelerator, which would require far less "muzzle-velocity" for the given distance, and hence utilize far less power (hence, it can be built much smaller).

What is the skill that would be used for a direct-fire battlefield Large Gun?
 
Deep-site Meson Gunners

But shore batteries of many nations were manned by army personnel. Wouldn't that hold true for planetary defense batteries?
Maybe, maybe not. If the army career doesn't provide the needed skills, then, not in a rules-prescriptivist approach.

Can you get spinal weapons and bay weapons skills in the army? If not, then no, the Army implied by the rules cannot be the ones manning the deep meson sites.

Actually I've just realized if I flip that around the people manning deep meson sites are probably Navy personnel.

Now a disclaimer, there are always other ways to explain who's doing what job with what skill but I find it really interesting to make these comparisons.

[Edit] Meson Guns are a Main minimum mount. Main weapons use Spines as their governing knowledge not Bay as I said. However only the Navy study Spines in ANM School.

I wonder if this might not actually be a problem in the T5 Errata process. Originally, both Soldier and Marine had the skill "Gunner" on their Skill Tables, but then an Errata Update document changed all of those "Gunner" skills to "Soldier" Skill. While I think this was a good change for Soldiers (Army), I am not so sure that that all of them should have been changed for Marines, who are trained for a shipboard environment. (You still can get Gunner [Turrets] in the Marines by attending ANM School, BTW).

If this errata is updated to allow some chance for Gunner Skill for Marine characters (as it was originally), then your Deep-Meson Sites might be operated by a Marine Garrison, instead of an Army one.
 
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Using the Starship-grade Weapons tables may not necessarily be a good indicator as to what can be mounted on a battlefield weapons platform.

The smallest Plasma & Fusion Guns on starships require a Barbette mount, and yet there are Man-Portable Plasma & Fusion Weapons Systems for Heavy Infantry & Infantry Support in T5.

A possible resolution for the technical aspect for Meson Weapons:

Space combat ranges are immense as compared to battlefield combat ranges. Since the application of the Meson Gun depends upon precisely tuning the velocity of the meson-beam to take advantage of relativistic time-dilation at a precise distance, it is possible that the reason a space-based Meson Gun require a 200dton Main-Weapon Bay is that it requires much greater power and much larger equipment in order to get the beam up to the necessary higher speeds for Space Combat Ranges before the particles decay.

Battlefield ranges are insignificant by comparison; it may be a much more trivial matter to build a battlefield meson-accelerator, which would require far less "muzzle-velocity" for the given distance, and hence utilize far less power (hence, it can be built much smaller).

What is the skill that would be used for a direct-fire battlefield Large Gun?

Thats a good analysis of why Meson Guns are Main weapons. Currently however in the RAW there are no battlefield scale meson guns in GunMaker of course there are no mortars either and they could be easily added.

For large direct fire guns or cannon would be Heavy Weapons:Artillery and the controlling characteristic is Intelligence. Putting these weapons under the Knowledge Artillery assumes that they can be used in both the direct and indirect role but it's probably accounting more for the kind of sights usually found on big guns like this rather that their ballistic characteristics.

Its actually open to some interpretation but common sense should make it clear what skill applies. For example: A Plasma weapon uses Beams which covers personal weapons. Gun fires "Bullets" and uses Artillery. But you can build a Plasma Gun by combining the two descriptors. Now I know that a Plasma Gun will fire a beam on a flat trajectory and can't be used in a non-line-of-sight role but if its now large enough to be in a vehicle mount it makes more sense for it to be governed by Artillery + Intelligence rather than Beams + Dexterity because its mounted on a weapons mount with all the elevating and traverse gear plus the sights.

I wonder if this might not actually be a problem in the T5 Errata process. Originally, both Soldier and Marine had the skill "Gunner" on their Skill Tables, but then an Errata Update document changed all of those "Gunner" skills to "Soldier" Skill. While I think this was a good change for Soldiers (Army), I am not so sure that that all of them should have been changed for Marines, who are trained for a shipboard environment. (You still can get Gunner [Turrets] in the Marines by attending ANM School).

If this errata is updated to allow some chance for Gunner Skill for Marine characters (as it was originally), then your Deep-Meson Sites might be operated by a Marine Garrison, instead of an Army one.

Thats very true, but I was just working on the RAW. There has been lots of errata applied to the Military Careers but no review of the ANM Schools. Its certainly something that bears looking at when Combat is fixed.
 
Strategic importance should really decide where the Imperium wants to place and man its own defenses. Choke points, important industrial centers, sector capitals and depots might all merit Imperial built and manned defenses.
Threat levels would decide whether a member world would want Imperial reinforcements or whether they would want to take care of things themselves. Help from the Imperium is (IMO) one of the benefits of Imperial membership. But worlds far from any threat may not see any need.

There's a TNS newsbrief that quotes a speech about how Rhylanor has "24 divisions equipped to Imperial standard". This appears to be referring to Rhylanoran forces, although it could be, say, 22 or 23 Rhylanoran Army divisions and 1 or 2 Imperial Army divisions.

Theres also the fact that if you put a bunker of Imperial troops on a world with a meson gun that can hit anywhere on the surface you have a powerful negotiating tool without resorting to parking the Navy in orbit in preparation for bombardment. But thats my fondness for a dark Imperium showing :devil:
That might be a reason why high-tech, high-population member worlds would prefer not to have Imperially manned meson guns on their surface. :D

Mind you, a handful of meson guns become a bit less of a negotiation tool if the planetary army has a LOT more meson guns. :rolleyes:

Hopefully I've done some of that with an examination of the available Operations types for the soldier career in an Imperial Army context above.
Except that, as I mentioned earlier, those tables may not accurately reflect Imperial Army practices. They are, after all, pretty generic.


Hans
 
thoughts...

A few points I have noticed.

- Crew, Ships troops (5) are assigned to crew a ship gun/screen and are bunked near it pg-344 troop accom.

- Vehicle maker has the ability to create Tanks - usually direct fire (LOS) thou Armoured units are missing from the armed forces, not Cav.

In my term in the Aussie Army (Engineers) we were occasionally relocated by our friends in the Air Force and by those in the Navy. In the OTU if a army unit is shipped to another system for Peace Keeping or what ever, would they be assigned a weapon to crew, and if its a fairly peaceful occupation you could, quite easily, see them getting extensive training in ship board ops. Anything to keep those bored troops occupied, and out of trouble.

- I have created a Laser version of the Vehicle Mount Cannon ( following AT line ) and my question for Armoured Gunners is: how much different would a single laser turret on a tank be from a single laser turret mounted on a ship? This is the same for slug throwers and projectile AT canons.

If the powers that be in the Imperial Armed Forces Cmd who oversee combined arms ops have any clue, they would standardize the weapon systems and have basic troops cross trained for that eventuality.

Having an army unit on board would be much better if they knew how to repair ship dmg, load ship class weapons and/or fight with them.

From an Adventure point of view - if a ship captain wanted to hire on a gunner for his only weapon and have some armed guards for his clandestine cargo drops - he would be better off with a ex navy gunner and an ex army guard - but cost effective - would have to hire ex navy if he wanted one crewman to fit both roles.

My 2 Bob :-)

Widda
 
- I have created a Laser version of the Vehicle Mount Cannon ( following AT line ) and my question for Armoured Gunners is: how much different would a single laser turret on a tank be from a single laser turret mounted on a ship? This is the same for slug throwers and projectile AT canons.

Fusion or Plasma guns for tank mounts would be more likely I should think.
 
Lasers

Except for Range.

If you can take out your enemy before they can even shoot back - big advantage.
Tanks = mobile warfare -> force range to your advantage.
 
So thoughts? Note that for the purpose of this exercise I'm trying to ignore GT: Ground Forces but I'm using some of what I know about ground forces stablished in CT.

Well considered, for Pilot skill could it be something to do with command and communications? (I seem to recall that German Generals flew around in small one man aircraft), or Artillery observation (we had a similar little plane used for FOO's).

Regards

David
 
A few points I have noticed.

- Crew, Ships troops (5) are assigned to crew a ship gun/screen and are bunked near it pg-344 troop accom.

G'day Widda. I was going to address the Ships troops organization at some point in this thread. The organization of the Company for Ships Troops seems very light coming out at just 70 members so I'm not sure it would have any bearing on either Imperial Army of Imperial Marine Corps organization both of which I can see being augmented by more specialists such as signalers, medics and drivers/flyers/pilots.

Second and more important to the point I think you're making is that "Ships Troops" don't have to be hired on from the Soldier or Marine careers. In the same way a Ship's Medic or Steward are suitably qualified if they have a certain level in their respective skills Ship's troops can be hired on if they have suitable levels in one of the Soldier or Spacer Skills as required.

- Vehicle maker has the ability to create Tanks - usually direct fire (LOS) thou Armoured units are missing from the armed forces, not Cav.

Here's that American military-centric thing that Traveller does. You and I are familiar with the British organizational model that created a Royal Armoured Corps from the Royal Tank Regiment and maintained a separate Cavalry tradition despite converting cavalry regiments (and some infantry battalions) over to tanks between the world wars. In the US they had the Cavalry Branch which had horse and motorized units right up until their commitment to North Africa in WW2. US practice after this time was to allocate "tanks" to their cavalry forces or convert cavalry units to armored forces.

Where as you and I might see cavalry as light recce forces and armored as heavier forces synonymous with "tanks" the US see cavalry and armored forces as both being tank based (and since the 60's including helicopters).

I have no problem in placing "tank" units under the cavalry branch because I come from a tradition where the cavalry were always mechanized and incorporated tank units from the 30's.

In my term in the Aussie Army (Engineers) we were occasionally relocated by our friends in the Air Force and by those in the Navy. In the OTU if a army unit is shipped to another system for Peace Keeping or what ever, would they be assigned a weapon to crew, and if its a fairly peaceful occupation you could, quite easily, see them getting extensive training in ship board ops. Anything to keep those bored troops occupied, and out of trouble.

I think the Imperial Navy will operate some troop transports and the majority of troops and equipment would be moved by merchant shipping hired or taken up from trade for the purpose.

I think some of what you're asking will depend on if the OTU is a small ship or big ship universe.

- I have created a Laser version of the Vehicle Mount Cannon ( following AT line ) and my question for Armoured Gunners is: how much different would a single laser turret on a tank be from a single laser turret mounted on a ship? This is the same for slug throwers and projectile AT canons.

If the powers that be in the Imperial Armed Forces Cmd who oversee combined arms ops have any clue, they would standardize the weapon systems and have basic troops cross trained for that eventuality.

Having an army unit on board would be much better if they knew how to repair ship dmg, load ship class weapons and/or fight with them.

From an Adventure point of view - if a ship captain wanted to hire on a gunner for his only weapon and have some armed guards for his clandestine cargo drops - he would be better off with a ex navy gunner and an ex army guard - but cost effective - would have to hire ex navy if he wanted one crewman to fit both roles.

My 2 Bob :-)

Widda

Way back in one of the T5 draft documents it seemed to me that the intention was to allow 1ton turrets to be dropped into 1ton weapons mounts on vehicles. So I've been doing that.

There's some over lap in weapon power but I think there would be major engineering differences eg. ship weapons have to have ultra fine adjustment and stabilization due to the ranges involved. Space weapons like lasers wouldn't have to take into account atmospheric interference and scattering.

The principle difference is the range over which Spacers and Soldiers expect to fight. Spacers prepare to, and equip to fight at up to a billion kilometers range (although millions of kilometers is more usual). Soldiers are mostly concerned with hitting things out to the horizon, over the horizon, or orbit. (5000km).

Assuming the powers that be ever have a clue is always risky and there's a whole aspect of the Imperial Army debate on what any higher command looks like or even if there is one. If the Imperium operates like NATO then there will still be a huge variety of weapons systems (good for the megacorps) and procedures although doctrine, organisation and tactics might be standardized.

Having soldiers on board ship that are familiar with running and repairing a ships stops them being ground infantry, grav tankers or anything else and moves them firmly into the space marine camp. Remember we're looking at the careers in the BBB. You could use the Marine career to represent your army or you could make all ships troops as serving Soldier career npcs, but the balance is Soldiers are in an army or fighting force and Marines are special forces serving on a starship.
 
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I have no real problem with a no Meson Army, if meson guns are all spinal mounts ... how many 16" guns did the Army have in WW2?

If TLs eventually get Meson Guns down to 'tank size', then the Army will start to deploy them with troops.

I agree, although I think Hitler scrapped his Battleships and stuck their turret's in the Atlantic Wall and of course there was Dora, which I understand was regarded as a waste of materials and manpower.

My take is does the Imperial Navy really want to risk planetary defence forces blowing away it's assets due to friendly (or not so friendly) fire?

Regards

David
 
Well considered, for Pilot skill could it be something to do with command and communications? (I seem to recall that German Generals flew around in small one man aircraft), or Artillery observation (we had a similar little plane used for FOO's).

Regards

David

Okay yes its good for a CO or XO of a military formation to go forward and conduct reconnaissance personally. You're thinking of the Storch light observation aircraft and the mission of army co-operation which includes that kind of recon flight, forward observation, close air support, and logistics, basically everything that light aircraft and helicopters do for combat formations.

Here's the thing:

In T5 Pilot Skill is about moving spacecraft. Its divided up into spacecraft over 2400tons (BCS), 100-2400tons (ACS) and under 100tons (Smallcraft).

My question is why would a Soldier ever need to control spacecraft, especially those over 100tons?

I can see dropships and landing craft, recon craft in orbit and some attack craft (but not ortillery, soldiers don't do that).

I'd rather they had access to Flyer which is the skill of operating vehicles from near ground level to orbit, which covers your suggestion and all those vehicles that operate in orbital space too.
 
Except for Range.

If you can take out your enemy before they can even shoot back - big advantage.
Tanks = mobile warfare -> force range to your advantage.

But with both Plasma/Fusion and Lasers you're range is limited to the horizon.

Both classes of weapon are line-of-sight beams.

Also consider something about Grav Tanks as they're designed with VehicleMaker:

They start off with a speed of just 5 which is 50kph* and if you add armour that drops. If you add engine power to bring speed back up that increases TL.

Tracked tanks are even slower.

*This is normal speed, the Driver can with a skill check increase it to Speed 6 which is 100kph or and actual maximum of 200kph
 
Here's the thing:

In T5 Pilot Skill is about moving spacecraft. Its divided up into spacecraft over 2400tons (BCS), 100-2400tons (ACS) and under 100tons (Smallcraft).

My question is why would a Soldier ever need to control spacecraft, especially those over 100tons?

I can see dropships and landing craft, recon craft in orbit and some attack craft (but not ortillery, soldiers don't do that).


The COACC Branch of the IA canonically operates out to 0.1 diameters, IIRC. That could mean that they control some SDBs (hidden in oceans) for Close-Orbit Attack & Defense (such ships would be over 100 dton).
 
The COACC Branch of the IA canonically operates out to 0.1 diameters, IIRC. That could mean that they control some SDBs (hidden in oceans) for Close-Orbit Attack & Defense (such ships would be over 100 dton).

You make a good point, but...


Yeah there's a but. If you want those SDBs to have any bay weapons or even a well rounded gunnery crew, they're not going to come via the Soldier career path. More likely its a good indication that due to the specialist nature of COACC you should be recruiting via the Spacer career path. This is fine as it makes sense that this specialist Command under the Unified Army concept should specialize in skills useful for (Orbital) Space.


Here a point to that its important to make. No one career path is exclusive to any organization.


Some careers may be dominant in a particular organization, such as Soldiers in the Imperial Army or Scouts in the IISS. But in each there will be Functionaries, Craftspersons, Citizens etc.

So its okay to have Spacers end up in the army, and very likely they'll be in roles such as COACC. Equally Soldiers in a navy work as Naval Infantry or riverine or shore based units. But those dominant careers may define some of the characteristics of an organization. (Such as the IISS being full of insane sophonts :rofl:)
 
But with both Plasma/Fusion and Lasers you're range is limited to the horizon.

Both classes of weapon are line-of-sight beams.

I was also considering that ship mount lasers are capable of tracking accurately, at range, fast moving ships.

A tank similarly armed could track and defend itself against fast movers/flyers at serious altitudes.

A smart military/merc would use the same controls, parts, ammo and would then be able to repair or rearm at any system with descent enough TL + the added bonus of cross trained troops no matter what flavour :-)

I generally see the roll of the army OTU as the muscle holding strategic locations (ground), easy to muster in descent numbers with equal population, easy to train and hard to outnumber if you are bringing in troops from another system.

Very hard to move entire divisions - logistically - man power, equipment/vehicles, ammo, food, life support (Freshers...), delivery systems to targets, 3-4 weeks of that many peeps in close quarters. fun fun fun...
 
Here a point to that its important to make. No one career path is exclusive to any organization.

Some careers may be dominant in a particular organization, such as Soldiers in the Imperial Army or Scouts in the IISS. But in each there will be Functionaries, Craftspersons, Citizens etc.

So its okay to have Spacers end up in the army, and very likely they'll be in roles such as COACC. Equally Soldiers in a navy work as Naval Infantry or riverine or shore based units. But those dominant careers may define some of the characteristics of an organization.

That is a very good point, and also addresses something I have been thinking about: How would you work up (for example) an Army Logistics Officer? Army and Functionary, of course, but a Logistics Officer would not "switch careers" into Functionary, but would be a Functionary while still being an Army Officer.

So you could start with the Soldier Career, perhaps rise to Officer Rank 3, transfer into Logistics (Functionary), while still in the Army, etc. Would you transfer directly and retain your Officer Rank 3, and would that correspond to entering the Functionary Career at Rank 3? And would promotions in Functionary give a corresponding rise in Army Officer (Soldier) Rank as well?

This actually might be a topic for a new T5 thread, but I am curious what your thoughts would be.
 
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That is a very good point, and also addresses something I have been thinking about: How would you work up (for example) an Army Logistics Officer? Army and Functionary, of course, but a Logistics Officer would not "switch careers" into Functionary, but would be a Functionary while still being an Army Officer.

So you could start with the Soldier Career, perhaps rise to Officer Rank 3, transfer into Logistics (Functionary), while still in the Army, etc. Would you transfer directly and retain you Officer Rank 3, and would that correspond to entering the Functionary Career at Rank 3? And would promotions in Functionary give a corresponding rise in Army Officer (Soldier) Rank as well?
A new idea struck me as I read this. What is the purpose of the Traveller character generation system? The primary purpose would seem to be to generate semi-random player characters. I know that it is also used to generate NPCs but is it actually the right tool for that purpose?

One nice aspect of random generation is that it gives the referee ideas that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise. A navy cook who is an ex-SEAL, for example, is an awesome concept, and how many referees would come up with that one on their own? But when I want to introduce an NPC like that, I want it to be in a place appropriate to the plot. Otherwise the players may never realise how Badass that cook is, while the cook on the ship where they could really use a bit of help turns out to be a most inefficient fighter.

So I'm wondering if a better support for generating NPCs wouldn't be templates. Something like this:

Navy: Vacc Suit-1, Zero-G-1
Cook: Cooking-2, Admin-1
Badass: Gun-4, Knife-4

Badass Navy Cook: Admin-1, Cooking-2, Gun-4, Knife-4, Vacc Suit-1, Zero-G-1


Hans
 
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Here's the thing:

In T5 Pilot Skill is about moving spacecraft. Its divided up into spacecraft over 2400tons (BCS), 100-2400tons (ACS) and under 100tons (Smallcraft).

My question is why would a Soldier ever need to control spacecraft, especially those over 100tons?

I can see dropships and landing craft, recon craft in orbit and some attack craft (but not ortillery, soldiers don't do that).

I'd rather they had access to Flyer which is the skill of operating vehicles from near ground level to orbit, which covers your suggestion and all those vehicles that operate in orbital space too.

Oops sorry, when I see Pilot I automatically think aircraft (especially with the one just shot down in Russia in the news), I am actually thinking Flyer skill would be more appropriate.

I agree I can't see a soldier using spacecraft, IMTU have Marines crewing small craft (as well as ships turrets). I could see an aide crewing a small craft
to take a general (& possibly some security) to liaise with an admiral.

Apologies

David
 
So you could start with the Soldier Career, perhaps rise to Officer Rank 3, transfer into Logistics (Functionary), while still in the Army, etc. Would you transfer directly and retain you Officer Rank 3, and would that correspond to entering the Functionary Career at Rank 3? And would promotions in Functionary give a corresponding rise in Army Officer (Soldier) Rank as well?

This actually might be a topic for a new T5 thread, but I am curious what your thoughts would be.

Based on the amount of Navy Captain's in desk jobs, continue in the old ranks
so a promotion in Functionary = a promotion in Spacer Officer.

Hmmm, does this mean I can create that Admiral that political'ed his way through the career structure & barely spent any time at sea?

Regards

David
 
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